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mu23
09-02-2003, 06:20 AM
Gee, I'm sorry. I tell you what: your boy can fill my inbox with hate mail as much as he wants to and kick my dog on Sundays to boot. How's that? Just call off that photogestapo! I'm running scared. You kick me out of here, I'll have to take up aviation photography. You can't hardly see those airplanes - they're specks! Heck, I got a Buzz Rickson's and I don't want to be hanging out with a bunch of pilot wannabees at the "airshow", sportin' cheesy MA-1's from Kmart and aviator glasses they got off channel 83 at four in the morning telling me stories about how they were pards with Dubya in the Lone Star National Guard and all those dangerous missions they ran protecting us from the heathen Comanche back in '68 along the Llano Estacada ("just a little ways West of the Mee-kong doncha know") Mite as well become a dang Trekkie - or a wedding photographer...Yikes! "There's the happy couple! Now, now, don't you worry about a thing; I got a lens that will take 10 years off ya, and we can just erase those little old track-marks runnin' down your arms with a com-pu-ter easy as pie." {Was that humble enough? Should I say a Novena for each of you as an act of contrition? How about I only shoot Metroliners with a film camera for the next month, surely that's punishment enough. I really should know better than to question my betters. And I won't try any new technology until you each own it first and have flooded the site with it, or take any pictures that could possibly be misconstrued as unusual or interesting: just choo-choos coming up the line, really! I won't allow no foliage or other profane filth to violate the sacred locomotive image neither. And no more empty bridges - just bridges with big manly diesel power called MAC for now on; yes, yes, I'll quit the Plymouths! How about I buy you each a new highhorse? They'll look just like the one's on the side of the NS locos - yes they will! yes they will! who's a good screener? that's right you're a good screener! cuchee cuchee coo! - and those horses will even know how to count and you can name them Tony. I can afford it - I'll just get another job and save every last dime, and stop eating...}

Chris Kilroy
09-02-2003, 02:42 PM
Please feel free to upload as much boring material as you'd like.. however, it still had better not be blurry. ;)

mu23
09-03-2003, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure that it's possible to take a picture of a mile long bridge in the dark and have it come out real sharp. What I got was nigh on miraculous, which is why I was eager to share it. Guess I'll have to wait until the Gov declassifies the next generation of night vision tek. It's back to the diurnal lifestyle (yawn) until then. Most likely, I'll figure away around it or die trying, if my name ain't mu, by cracky! It's odd though, most folks are stuck on the digital vs. film issue as the end all be all photography topic, not realizing that the real potential to be found in digicams is miles and miles away from simply becoming a film substitute. Eventually it will just be about subject and composition with the camera doing the rest and doing it better than any human could possibly aspire to - night or day, f-stops, shutter speed, etc. simply won't be an issue. Photographs will come in two varieties, just as Oscar Wilde said of people: only two kinds, boring or not boring. There will be a great clamor amongst the old guard and they will rip their garments in anguish and claim that the craft is gone blah blah blah, but all that has merely been what we've had do to make up for the fact that the equipment we now have is so primitive, so inadequate. No matter, the otakus ("obsessive techno-fetishists"*) will be there to run with the ball. I spent most of this past summer Photoshopping my grandmother's prints from the turn of the (20th) century. She was mad about cameras when she was a kid and somehow managed to get what was, for that day and age, a cutting edge camera. She took pictures of everything and everybody around her and ended up documenting the last days of pioneer life in this country. The photographs are informative and very skillfully done, the concept of obsolescence is not a factor. She was what we would call today an "early adopter" and never held onto an old piece of equipment if there was something more advanced to be had. If she were still around, I guess she'd be calling me once a week to see if Photoshop 8 was out yet, and asking me when we'd be heading out to shoot trains at midnight with the IR rig again. (You should see how polite the police get when they realize there's an octogenarian with you.) I wish she was still with us, that woman had the best sense of composition I ever saw and always, always, pushed her equipment to its very limits and beyond, not giving one single pinch of bear scat for what anyone else had to say about it. Wish I could be more like that.


*as defined by William Gibson

WKUrailfan
12-17-2007, 11:24 PM
hahahaha! thats great.

JRMDC
12-17-2007, 11:30 PM
WKU, I don't have time right now, can you summarize, please, did mu23 write anything worth reading?

UNDPilot
12-17-2007, 11:34 PM
I read it, but I didn't really understand it.

kodachrome
12-17-2007, 11:36 PM
Amen! I'm getting tired of having shots that everyone thinks they're great, yet this crust bucket of a site thinks they're crap.

Open your eyes editors... Maybe you'll see what a good photograph is.

Just my 2 cents.

Steven M. Welch

bigbassloyd
12-17-2007, 11:41 PM
here we go again!

Loyd L.

UNDPilot
12-17-2007, 11:48 PM
I don't know what happened, but before this gets out of hand the dates for both of MUs posts are from 2003. So how did this get to the top of the forums?

Chris Kilroy
12-17-2007, 11:59 PM
Steve,

Why don't you show some of your rejected photos to the guys here and see what they have to say about them?

Frankly, your shots are crap, and anyone who tells you otherwise either knows nothing about photography or is blowing smoke up your ass. Your wonderful attitude in Appeals, that we've put up with for far too long, has grown old too, so much so that I removed your photos and account after dealing with your last gem.

For those who don't know, here are some of his WONDERFUL photos that our "crust bucket" site has the nerve to keep rejecting!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457053&key=127285425
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=458237&key=91504570
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459281&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457045&key=337858291
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459285&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459290&key=1148492211

Good riddance.

Cyclonetrain
12-18-2007, 12:01 AM
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457053&key=127285425
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459290&key=1148492211
Nice Ideas, poorly executed

The rest are just... not good.

JRMDC
12-18-2007, 12:29 AM
I don't know what happened, but before this gets out of hand the dates for both of MUs posts are from 2003. So how did this get to the top of the forums?

WKU just responded to several threads that had died back in 2003. I fell for two. :( He's now banned for a week.

JimThias
12-18-2007, 01:27 AM
Steve,

Why don't you show some of your rejected photos to the guys here and see what they have to say about them?

Frankly, your shots are crap, and anyone who tells you otherwise either knows nothing about photography or is blowing smoke up your ass. Your wonderful attitude in Appeals, that we've put up with for far too long, has grown old too, so much so that I removed your photos and account after dealing with your last gem.

Good riddance.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/jimthias/Smilies/applause.gif

Those with a bad attitude and unwillingness to learn need not apply.

Callufrax
12-18-2007, 01:38 AM
A master of photography! I wish I could take photographs like that!

JRMDC
12-18-2007, 01:47 AM
What's odd is that Kodachrome/Welch has 25 accepted pix here. Usually once one has that many one is starting to get the feel for what the site is about, and one stops whining.

As he is banned, one can no longer see those pix.

John Ryan
12-18-2007, 05:12 AM
Totally bizarre.

Especially given that some of WKUrailfan's photos displayed a fair level of competence. I wouldn't classify him as one of those people who wanders in with cell-phone-camera-quality shots, then can't understand why they aren't accepted.

I'm all for a photographer's right to air their rejection grievances in the court of public opinion. I dare say that there are times myself that that screeners have me seeing red. (I'd guess that about 30% of my shots are rejected.) It's an essential part of the feedback loop to have this forum as an avenue for discussion and discourse.

I think there's a tremendous amount of potential in rejected photos. When you stop and think about, the five individuals that screen the photos here are basically acting as the "arbiters of taste" when it comes to railroad photography. It's true that these five people seem to make the correct decisions 99.7% of the time, but no small group of people can possibly be tuned to every nuance and trend in photography.

One need only to look at the evolution of material on this site to see that there have been a number of changes in the general definition of "what constitutes a railroad photo." Almost all of these changes have been directed at broadening the scope of the acceptable photography. If you were to look at some of the recent abstract shots posted here and compare them to what was posted at startup, the difference would be clear. An interesting exercise, for you avid railpix-watchers, would be to compare the contest-winning photography posted on the Center for Railroad Photography & Art website. http://www.railphoto-art.org/ (Look for "Award.") Compare the photography found on the CRPA website with the photography here.

I'd bet that just about all of those photos would be rejected for Bad Motive, or similar. Yet this is the "best" photography, as defined by railroad photography's most serious, most analytical institution. And the photography they highlight is always interesting, insightful, and though-provoking. And it's different. It goes to show that people can never agree on one standard of perfection. It also goes to show that without pushing any limits and exploring new corners of the discipline, there can be no forward progress.

I'd be in favor of opening up the rejected photos to public viewing as part of a special members-only gallery. I see this as having three purposes - because it's impossible not to learn something from them. 1) Showing what was rejected and why provides potential contributors with specific examples of dos and don'ts. It's one thing to say it in a set of guidelines, but easier to grasp when you see it. 2) When failings are posted publicly, a contributor is going to spend more time making sure they had it correct the first time. 3) It adds transparency to the screening process. As stated above, the screeners get it right 99.7% of the time. But they (just like us photographers) aren't 100% perfect 100% of the time. We're all human and we all make mistakes.

I understand that there's a perceived need to provide privacy for rejected photos. I would counter that by simply saying that somewhere, somehow, a photographer made the decision to upload that shot. When they clicked "Upload" they were essentially signing their name on to their material, knowing full well that there was a good chance it would be published on the site. Be it good, bad, sharp, or soft, they understand that they are standing behind it when they put it in the queue for approval or rejection. And if a photos is rejected, that doesn't change the photo itself at all. Rejection is just a decision made by one of five people. Rejection is a label; sometimes it's deserved and sometimes it just means that your definition of what constitutes a "railroad photo" isn't the same as what one of those five people thinks.

hoydie17
12-18-2007, 02:14 PM
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457053&key=127285425
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459290&key=1148492211
Nice Ideas, poorly executed

The rest are just... not good.

I agree Glenn. On the other side, I can see where pride of ownership might have this guy thinking they are great photos.

If you can look past the overall photo quality, they are nice photos, unfortunately for him, not nice enough for this particular site. There are undoubtedly sites out there that would enjoy those photos, just not this one.

I think what happens to alot of people is they see this site, hear all sorts of things about it, and they set out to prove that they too can post photos here. After a few months worth of rejections, frustration sets in, and they have their heads completely up their 5th point of contact.

They fail to see that in the time that they've tried to get photos posted, their work has undeniably improved. But because they can't get that first acceptance, it seems to be "a waste of time".

To take a line from Nicolas Cage in Lords of War, your first accepted photo on RP.net sort of goes in this manner, "It's like your first time having sex; it's over way too fast, and it isn't quite what you expected."

As John says, there are photos out there that RP.net wouldn't give a snowball's chance in hell to. But it doesn't mean the photos are bad, RP.net has it's standard, and other sites, institutions and publications have theirs.

As a photographer, it's on you (us) to tailor your efforts and products to best meet or exceed the standards of your chosen audience or medium, whether it be a screener at this site, and editor at Kalmbach, or a curator at the CRPA. BUT you must keep in mind that meeting one group's standards doesn't mean you met the other's as well, and that doesn't mean one is better than the other, it just means they are looking for something else.

Sean

JimThias
12-18-2007, 05:07 PM
The thing that amazes me the most are the people who treat RP like it's the end-all-be-all. If getting your photos on the web is so important, create your own damn website and have a gallery with anything you want in it. RP is not obliged to accept EVERY photo just because the person submitting them thinks they are good. They have their own guidelines, rules, criteria, whatever here that they set for themselves. Why can't people grasp that concept? I have a ton of photos that I LIKE that I haven't submitted to RP because I know they don't fit the criteria. But do I try to submit them, only to have them rejected and then cry about it? Hell no. I upload them elsewhere. For the ones I believe are at RP standards, I upload here. That's why my rejection rate is very low. After joining this site, getting a few rejections and then figuring out what was acceptable or not, it became quite clear to me what pictures I could submit. I really don't understand the need for the attitude and hatred toward the screeners. They are just doing their job based on guidelines set by the creators of this site.

randy
12-18-2007, 05:18 PM
They fail to see that in the time that they've tried to get photos posted, their work has undeniably improved.

That's one of the main reasons I'm out here trying. I've had 5 of 15 submissions accepted. Now I'm shooting with this site in mind and getting better results, tho the results are not always up to site standards. Even when they are not they are better than they would have been. It's a great challenge.

NSFan14
12-18-2007, 05:59 PM
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457053&key=127285425
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=458237&key=91504570
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459281&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=457045&key=337858291
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459285&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=459290&key=1148492211

The first photo is kinda cool but this is Railpictures...Not people standing in the dark by a train pictures.

I have to agree with Randy. It is a challenge...Ive learned over the past few months that when you get a photo rejected dont get all upset about it. Now when I get one rejected it kinda gets me more pumped for the weekend so I can go back to the same spot and give it another try.

John Ryan
12-18-2007, 06:12 PM
The first photo is kinda cool but this is Railpictures...Not people standing in the dark by a train pictures.

Suit yourself.

[photoid=131555]

hoydie17
12-18-2007, 06:14 PM
Now I'm shooting with this site in mind and getting better results, tho the results are not always up to site standards.

All I can say, is be careful with that mentality. I'm going to pontificate a little with this one (surprise surprise), so bare with me.

I've heard and partaken in no shortage of discussions and rants of people who allowed their hobby to be consumed by shooting for RP.net standards (and that of others) and they have sacrificed some of their own enjoyment to do so. I'm not making a blanket statement either, there are some who undoubtedly will disagree with my take on this.

When I first became involved with this site 3 or 4 years ago, I think 4, I fell into the same rut as many. I'd only go outside on sunny days, and only tried to shoot 3/4 wedgies or telemash shots that I felt would get accepted here. I'd forgoe shooting a photo of a train if I didn't think it had potential to be accepted here. I'd practically race home after a long day of shooting so I could get a "head-start" on posting photos to RP.net. Totally ignoring the fact that I'd been outside enjoying myself and having fun. Railfanning was becoming more of a chore for me than it was anything else, and the end result, is the fun had disappeared.

Early last year ('06) I decided I needed to get away from it, so I packed up my toys and went home, had every photo deleted from the database here and on a few other sites. I took about 2 solid months off from the hobby, in conjunction with starting as a Train Dispatcher. Incidentally, when you're working for the railroad, it's amazing how you begin to see trains after a few weeks, seriously!

For what should be obvious reasons, I seldomly took the camera with me, I just went out to work, or sometimes just to watch. So I'm watching brand-spankin' new CSX GEVOs were heading on their maiden trips to and from Selkirk I started thinking, "Gee, if only I had my camera with me."

Naturally, I started taking the trusty D70 back out to the tracks with me, and the liberal shooting of trains resumed, sometimes to the chagrin of my mentor during ground school, and at least one time to my boss, "Trust me chief, those GT GP40's are ULTRA-RARE around here!!!" (Ahhh the memories.)

It's important for me to point out, that I never let go of some of the things I learned from the various people that I'd befriended in this hobby. Amongst other things, I also remembered things that I'd learned from the standards used on RP.net.

When I decided to bury my end of the hatchet, I started putting photos back on the site. Since then, I do not have a single standing rejection, there were a few initial rejections that were subsequently accepted on appeal, or with minor re-processing.

I point this out because it's important to know that once you have progressed to the level of getting shots routinely accepted on this site, or that publication, or this museum, you SHOULD NOT quit trying to learn and improve your own standards.

Eventually, you'll get to a point where you can have confidence enough in your photos and abilities that being subject to screening is merely a check in the box. (For me, I see it as a sanity check.)

Along these lines, I've also become considerably more selective about which photos I even bothered uploading to RP.net for display. Just because I took 20 or 30 great photos on a trip, doesn't mean they ALL have to be posted here. I like to think of these "private keepers" as my ace in the hole for slideshows, or e-mail circles, or for use on other websites, including my own personal one.

Simply put, and as said time and time again by many others, including myself,

"Shoot for you, not for them."

Sean

randy
12-18-2007, 06:35 PM
All I can say, is be careful with that mentality.

I wouldn't disagree. I was referring more to having some kind of standard. I shot about 150 frames last Friday, of which 20 had a train and I may submit one.

NSFan14
12-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Suit yourself.

[photoid=131555]
No see my point is...His picture you can barly see the train. When I first looked at it my exact thought was "Ok its a man in the dark" Then I noticed the train.

Nice shot by the way ;)

JRMDC
12-18-2007, 06:56 PM
I've heard and partaken in no shortage of discussions and rants of people who allowed their hobby to be consumed by shooting for RP.net standards (and that of others) and they have sacrificed some of their own enjoyment to do so. I'm not making a blanket statement either, there are some who undoubtedly will disagree with my take on this.

Having seen you active on the forum today, I predicted to myself that you would do a long post here! :)


Along these lines, I've also become considerably more selective about which photos I even bothered uploading to RP.net for display. Just because I took 20 or 30 great photos on a trip, doesn't mean they ALL have to be posted here.

Amen. Well, except for my seventeen pictures from Strasburg!!!!!!!!!!

I am just at the beginning of being more selective, but in 2008 I think I will be heading in that direction. (Most of the reason for my greatly diminished upload rate is less time trackside, however.)

JimThias
12-18-2007, 08:43 PM
Suit yourself.

[photoid=131555]

So...how does a screener miss an obviously unlevel picture, yet sometimes ones that are up for debate get nailed by the unlevel rejection? http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif