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jnohallman
03-03-2011, 03:34 AM
No picture here yet, and once I download and edit, I may decide not to submit, but just in case, I have a question about reporting marks. I was down shooting near NS Lambert Point and caught a nice high hood unit in standard NS paint, but with SOU on the side of the cab. If I were to submit a shot to RP, what would be the proper way to designate it for the database?

Jon

Freericks
03-03-2011, 03:41 AM
Use the reporting marks on the locomotive. That is how it is traced.

When picking the railroad, it is Norfolk Southern.

When listing the road number, it is SOU XXXXX

jnohallman
03-03-2011, 03:50 AM
Thanks, Charles!

Jon

troy12n
03-03-2011, 03:51 AM
Use the reporting marks on the locomotive. That is how it is traced.

When picking the railroad, it is Norfolk Southern.

When listing the road number, it is SOU XXXXX

That's not true on NS at all

It's NS xxxx

The reporting marks on NS are (were) for accounting purposes only, if they were to get a track authority they would be identifying themselves as NS xxxx.

The only exception is SOU 4610

NS has been painting over a lot of those, they should disappear soon.

coborn35
03-03-2011, 04:11 AM
Im not sure that jives Troy...

Freericks
03-03-2011, 04:12 AM
That's not true on NS at all

It's NS xxxx

The reporting marks on NS are (were) for accounting purposes only, if they were to get a track authority they would be identifying themselves as NS xxxx.

The only exception is SOU 4610

NS has been painting over a lot of those, they should disappear soon.

Ah, YOU'RE WRONG...

At the moment that he took the photograph the reporting marks were SOU.

They were on the locomotive.

If they identified themselves in a different way than their reporting marks were, they were also wrong.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Three lefts, however, do.

crazytiger
03-03-2011, 04:31 AM
I tend to agree with Troy. I know of know NS unit ever having the reporting marks SOU XXXX. Now let's wait for Joe.

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 04:32 AM
Charles;

I don't think you're right on this. It *should* be NS. Look no further than the database here. Most people put them in as NS. I'd be willing to bet that whatever NS loco Jon saw is already in the database as NS ****. Look through all the ex-Conrail locos and while thee are a few wrong listings in the database, they too should be NS, not PRR.

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 04:33 AM
Now let's wait for Joe.
Don't confuse me with someone who knows all about this; I'm mainly someone who nearly bursts a vien when I see CSX or SR (for actual Southern locos) marks.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 04:46 AM
The reporting marks on the locomotive are the reporting marks.

That does not change the fact that a Norfolk Southern painted unit with SOU reporting marks is a "Norfolk Southern" locomotive.

You will note, all the UP heritage units have UP reporting marks, so in those cases, using WP or SP would be wrong.

It's honestly not about what anyone here thinks. It's about what is painted on the locomotive. This isn't opinion. This is what is.

Funny thing about facts... they are true whether you believe them or not.

What it says is what it is in the system.

troy12n
03-03-2011, 11:41 AM
"In the system", they are NS xxxx

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 01:26 PM
It's honestly not about what anyone here thinks. It's about what is painted on the locomotive. This isn't opinion. This is what is.
Not really. We've seen the wrong engine designation paiunted on the side of an engine before. In past years, I've seen a GP40-2 with SD40-2 stenciled on the engine and B32-8 on the side of a C39-8. Also, I've seen PRR under the cab number of ex-Con SD60s. I believe the SD60 came out in the early 1990s while the PRR ceased to exist in the late 1960s. I doubt NS refers to these as "PRR" anywhere except on paper.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 03:33 PM
The locomotive designations are one thing (and not salient to this topic).

The PRR on the side of the ex Con SD60 was correct. Norfolk Southern owns the reporting mark PRR.

The correct reporting mark on that locomotive at the time you saw it was PRR.

This is not the same thing as a model designation, which has no meaning in tracking equipment. This is simply what the reporting mark is.

Again, you can have it any way you want it. I am simply stating the facts here. I am not the reporting marks police, but like you get annoyed when people get their data wrong, I do too, and this is data that you would get wrong if you did not follow exactly what is on the locomotive.

It's no different than UP adding UPY. Railroads use multiple reporting marks to keep equipment numbers unique. When you do not utilize those reporting marks, you are misidentifying.

The specific reason why NS started using PRR and and CSX started using NYC was to differentiate among like numbered equipment. So let's say at the time you saw PRR 2365 NS gave it that mark because it already had an NS 2365. You put NS 2365 because the PRR ceased to exist in 1968. You just ID the wrong locomotive.

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 03:58 PM
I always thought NS used PRR and CSX used NYC was so the people actually doing the slicing and dicing at the end of Conrail didn't get things mixed up. The question Jon asked that we all seem to be getting away from is how to properly designate it for RP. I believe you may have been the first one to mention how NS designates it for their system. One could argue these are seperate issues, but I believe NS actually does use NS **** for all their locomotives. If you look at their roster, there are no units that I am aware of that have the same number, but different reporting marks. If not, then there would be no reason for them to use old marks in their system.

For RP, except for the PRR SD60s, I have not seen anyone use anything other than NS marks for their locomotives.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 04:02 PM
NS may very well have a unique number designated for every locomotive in their system, but if the reporting mark is still presently SOU, PRR, or CR that means that that locomotive has not yet been integrated into the NS numbering (even if it is going to retain its present number).

It's honestly up to you if you want to be correct or not.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 04:16 PM
Here are two quotes from the rulebooks that I found online that should settle this:

Carriers that were merged and/or assigned equipment marks prior to the STB’s transfer of responsibility to NMFTA may retain those reporting marks as equipment identifiers only.

All equipment moving in rail service is required to be equipped with two transponders that are on the A and B ends. (snip) A car being re-stenciled, per Field Manual Rule 63, must have its transponders replaced or reprogrammed. In order for equipment to have transponders programmed, they must be registered in the Umler file.

Thus, the equipment must have the reporting marks stenciled on it be the same as those being broadcast by its transponders in order to maintain clean recording by the Umler system.

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 04:18 PM
"No, the reporting marks are of the owning railroad. NS is NS. The subletters go back to the days of leasership and ownership. When Southern acquired the Central of Georgia, a certain number of units had to be sublettered CG so that if the ownership/lease failed, these units would go back to the host railroad without having to bicker and bitch about which units that they would get. Each subsiderary got a number of units alloted by the size of the railroad at the time of absorption. CNOTP, CG, SOU, LOP&SG, SA, and a few others. The same applied to the SD60s and C39-8s long after the NW takeover of the Southern. NW or SOU..now that all are under one ownership, all new units are just NS with no sublettering.

The only difference is certain lease use that are painted NS, like some of the GP38s that are rebult into the 5500 series are actually owned by First Union leasing but are still lettered NS and sublettered NS, but that is just a financing thing for kick backs."

In quotation marks because I asked an NS egineer friend of mine and this is what he wrote.)

troy12n
03-03-2011, 05:08 PM
If you looked in the computer or on the blue cards, they will say NS xxxx. Even the Southern 4610, it is actually NS 4610 according to someone I asked on JREB.org who works for NS, so I was incorrect about that one piece.

What Joe and I say are correct.

coborn35
03-03-2011, 05:19 PM
Odd that NS does it different from most carriers.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 05:28 PM
If you looked in the computer or on the blue cards, they will say NS xxxx. Even the Southern 4610, it is actually NS 4610 according to someone I asked on JREB.org who works for NS, so I was incorrect about that one piece.

What Joe and I say are correct.

If this is true, I would be wrong... but it would defy all logic.

You will have to show me a blue card that has a different reporting mark than is painted on the side of the locomotive. Do this, and I will admit to being wrong. I don't believe this is possible however.

"No, the reporting marks are of the owning railroad. NS is NS. The subletters go back to the days of leasership and ownership. When Southern acquired the Central of Georgia, a certain number of units had to be sublettered CG so that if the ownership/lease failed, these units would go back to the host railroad without having to bicker and bitch about which units that they would get. Each subsiderary got a number of units alloted by the size of the railroad at the time of absorption. CNOTP, CG, SOU, LOP&SG, SA, and a few others. The same applied to the SD60s and C39-8s long after the NW takeover of the Southern. NW or SOU..now that all are under one ownership, all new units are just NS with no sublettering.

The only difference is certain lease use that are painted NS, like some of the GP38s that are rebult into the 5500 series are actually owned by First Union leasing but are still lettered NS and sublettered NS, but that is just a financing thing for kick backs."


Honestly Joe... this quote has nothing to do with the arguement at hand. He's simply stating that everything has since been converted to NS. I have no arguement with that. However, if one of those locomotives is roaming the system with PRR or SOU stenciled on its side, it is officially that reporting mark still. It simply hasn't been painted over yet.

(Edit) - Additional thought - I think the confusion here is the difference between who owns the locomotive and what the reporting mark on the side of the locomotive is. Both Troy's point and Joe's point are that the Norfolk Southern's reporting mark is NS and if they own or lease a locomotive that locomotive's reporting mark is NS. That is only partially true.

True - Norfolk Southern's reporting mark is NS
True - The owner or leasor of the locomotive in question is NS
Fasle - That means the reporting mark is NS

The reporting mark is what is painted on the locomotive at the time the photograph was taken. The question itself is not what should the reporting mark be, but what IS the reporting mark painted on the locomotive?

Think of it this way. The question of what railroad owns the locomotive is a confusing one itself (because museum units and not-yet patched units still track back to railroads that no longer exist). But, if we put that issue aside for a moment, the reporting mark does determine the owner. If the reporting mark is UPY, it's still Union Pacific. If the reporting mark is NYC, it belongs to CSX, etc. But the owner does not determine the reporting mark. That is what is there, that you see with your eyes.

The box that asks for the reporting mark, is not asking what railroad owns the locomotive. It is asking what is the reporting mark painted on the side of the unit.

Thus, no matter what pretzel you try to get into in order to say it should really be NS, if it says SOU on the side, that's what it says. The question is as simple as what color is the locomotive. We can argue that NS locomotives are all black, but if this one is painted blue or that one is painted green, to honestly answer the question, you would say blue or green.

Watain
03-03-2011, 06:44 PM
Out of curiosity, should it be CSX XXX or CSXT XXX. For reporting marks? I've been listing it my CSX reporting marks, CSXT since 2008.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Out of curiosity, should it be CSX XXX or CSXT XXX. For reporting marks? I've been listing it my CSX reporting marks, CSXT since 2008.

CSXT

The railroad is CSX. Their reporting mark is CSXT.

The reason for this is that a reporting mark that ends in "X" indicates that the equipment belongs to a non-railroad entity.

CSX was orginally supposed to be a temporary name for the merged Chessie System and Seaboard System, but the name stuck. Corporate initials have become popular over time, replacing many names. Thus, CSX now only stands for CSX.

Watain
03-03-2011, 06:48 PM
CSXT

The railroad is CSX. Their reporting mark is CSXT.

The reason for this is that a reporting mark that ends in "X" indicates that the equipment belongs to a non-railroad entity.

CSX was orginally supposed to be a temporary name for the merged Chessie System and Seaboard System, but the name stuck. Corporate initials have become popular over time, replacing many names. Thus, CSX now only stands for CSX.

Ah that's what I thought, thanks for the info.

nanshant
03-03-2011, 09:12 PM
If you looked in the computer or on the blue cards, they will say NS xxxx. Even the Southern 4610, it is actually NS 4610 according to someone I asked on JREB.org who works for NS, so I was incorrect about that one piece.

What Joe and I say are correct.

"NS 4610" traces and "SOU 4610" does not. Fact. As Joe stated the (still blue) ex-Conrail units on NS have "PRR" under the cab numbers but that does not mean they are owned by the PRR.

Nick

jnohallman
03-03-2011, 09:21 PM
"NS 4610" traces and "SOU 4610" does not. Fact. As Joe stated the (still blue) ex-Conrail units on NS have "PRR" under the cab numbers but that does not mean they are owned by the PRR.

Nick

No one is arguing that they're owned by the company painted on the cab. If ownership of the locomotive were all that mattered, whether for railroad or RP.net purposes, there would be no need for cab reporting marks at all. However, there is apparently a railroad need for them, and there is also apparently a reason why some locomotives carry cab reporting marks referring to railroads that long ceased to exist, above and beyond the split up of Conrail equipment.

Jon

coborn35
03-03-2011, 09:22 PM
"NS 4610" traces and "SOU 4610" does not. Fact. As Joe stated the (still blue) ex-Conrail units on NS have "PRR" under the cab numbers but that does not mean they are owned by the PRR.

Nick
That is not at all what we are talking about.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 09:35 PM
"NS 4610" traces and "SOU 4610" does not. Fact. As Joe stated the (still blue) ex-Conrail units on NS have "PRR" under the cab numbers but that does not mean they are owned by the PRR.

Nick

Did you just not actually read what I posted?

It's as simple as this... the question for the locomotive number requests --

Road Number: The road number of the leading locomotive. In format CSXT 7812, CP 9300, BNSF 125, etc.

If you look at this locomotive [photoid=324623] it says SOU 4610.

If you look at this locomotive [photoid=355306] it say UP 1989.

Now, I will say, based on your post, it sounds like the transponder on SOU 4610 is set to NS 4610, but from what I've read of the rulebook, that is a rules violation.

Find where, in my posts, I suggest the Pennyslvania Railroad owns any Conrail units.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 10:03 PM
Did a little web research on the 4610... interesting. It was NS 4610 prior to repainting. Now, here I'm doing what I preached against myself, but I'm guessing it was simply never altered in the system.

From what I've read, it is a rules violation, but that's not my problem and I hope it keeps the SOU.

That being said, it may very well be an exception to the rule, but if I were posting it, I would post it as SOU 4610, much the same as I would with the DH lightning stripe units (rather than CP, who owns them - or do they, DH is still an entity legally), or an unpatched SP unit I would still give an SP reporting mark.

Again, that which is on the locomotive should take precedence over other factors.

Is it blue? Yes.

Does it say PRR 4527 on the side? Yes.

Does NS 4610, aka SOU 4610 appear to break the rules? Yes.

stevenmwelch
03-03-2011, 10:14 PM
I'm with nobody. If I ever get a unit with SOU on the side I'm checking the damn blue card for what it says... I'll listen to a blue card! ; - )

Foam on. (my BNSF 631, which has no BNSF on it, is still BNSF, per the blue card)

Joe the Photog
03-03-2011, 10:48 PM
What I took the guy I talked to about this to mean is this: back when Southern began acquiring railroads, they would put the lettering of the carrier that engine would go back to if the merger or buyout failed. When Southern and N&W began dating, they did the same thing. In the case that the mergers fell, then the railroads whose lettering were on the units would get those specific units. It's confusing, but they are meant to be reporting marks per se. Why the units kept this lettering after the Southern/N&W merger, I do not know. I'd also heard this was done for accounting purposes too. But if we're supposed to go by the marks under some of these units, then almost everybody who uploads shots not only to RP, but to the web, are getting it wrong. We can argue about unpatched SP units or old ATSF engines, but it seems NS is a different animal to these discussions.

Jon, put in NS reporting marks.

Freericks
03-03-2011, 11:05 PM
How would you handle Gulford Units?

How would Cotten Belt have worked?

What about a Norfolk Southern hopper that has a SOU reporting mark?

What about BNSF's use of GN to indicate a locomotive is moving off roster?

Freericks
03-03-2011, 11:29 PM
I'm with nobody. If I ever get a unit with SOU on the side I'm checking the damn blue card for what it says... I'll listen to a blue card! ; - )

Foam on. (my BNSF 631, which has no BNSF on it, is still BNSF, per the blue card)


I agree with this, Steve... I just want to see a blue card that has different reporting marks than are painted on the locomotive. As noted above, that would make me change my tune.

I am now 100% convinced that SOU 4610 is an exception (although frankly I haven't seen that blue card either, but it seems pretty well documented on the internet that it never lost its NS).

BNSF paint jobs don't have the reporting marks separate from the logo.

troy12n
03-03-2011, 11:45 PM
RE: SOU and N&W car reporting marks, these are indeed SOU and N&W

Freericks
03-04-2011, 12:39 AM
This is from the Norfolk Southern site (regarding transporting locomotives).

The unit(s) should be in compliance with all federal and other requirements prior to ordering an inspection. General inspection items are locomotive model, type/class, gear ratio, number of trucks and axles, spacing of axles and truck centers, type of bearings, journal and wheel size, type of draft gear, stop blocks (required for non-alignment control draft gear), handbrakes, air brakes and piped straight air, working AEI tags with corresponding reporting marks stenciled on the locomotive and UMLER registration.

4610 breaks Norfolk Southern's own rules.

Freericks
03-04-2011, 03:31 AM
I've done some more research, because frankly Troy and Joe are from NS territory and I'm not... and there seems to be some serious question about the "reporting marks" on NS locomotives, but coming from an angle that I had never heard about before.

NS apparently may not use CNTOP, SOU, and PRR as reporting marks at all. Instead, they use them more along the way ATSF had MKM stenciled under the roadnumber on units maintained by Morrison-Knudson.

So, I am now under the impression that they use these to categorize locomotives by lien-holder and do not consider them reporting marks (even though they are using reporting marks to do this).

Their reporting marks are to be assumed like KCS, BNSF, or CSX (or yellow UP units).

So, I will now eat some crow, and say Jon, Joe is correct, it should be NS.

That being said, I am frustrated by this, the same way I am frustrated by the GP25 and C45AC-CTE. The RRs don't care (and have no reason to care) about consistency... but for detail oriented idiots like me, it's maddening.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 03:37 AM
That being said, I am frustrated by this, the same way I am frustrated by the GP25 and C45AC-CTE. The RRs don't care (and have no reason to care) about consistency... but for detail oriented idiots like me, it's maddening.

If you are frustrated by that, check out how CN labels their motive power...

NYC did similar stuff too.

coborn35
03-04-2011, 05:38 AM
What about BNSF's use of GN to indicate a locomotive is moving off roster?
They are identified as GN units, and they were not used to indicate a locomotive moving off roster, they were for yard units...

jnohallman
03-04-2011, 02:02 PM
I've done some more research, because frankly Troy and Joe are from NS territory and I'm not... and there seems to be some serious question about the "reporting marks" on NS locomotives, but coming from an angle that I had never heard about before.

NS apparently may not use CNTOP, SOU, and PRR as reporting marks at all. Instead, they use them more along the way ATSF had MKM stenciled under the roadnumber on units maintained by Morrison-Knudson.

So, I am now under the impression that they use these to categorize locomotives by lien-holder and do not consider them reporting marks (even though they are using reporting marks to do this).

Their reporting marks are to be assumed like KCS, BNSF, or CSX (or yellow UP units).



If that is the case, and the "reporting marks" indicate the lien-holder, how can PRR, for instance, be the lien-holder on any locomotives? The Pennsy went out of existence a long time ago. For that matter, how long a lease do companies take on an engine? The one I'm looking at is a high-hood unit that I would assume should have come off lease a long time ago, and got a fresh coat of paint since. Why would it still carry SOU marks?

Jon

Joe the Photog
03-04-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't know why it would still "SOU" on the cab after all of these years. I went back through my pictures and noted my last NS shot has a high hood GP38-2 with "SOU" on the cab.

[photoid=355349]

A very quick glance through the database does not yield any results for people putting NS units in as SOU with the exception of the 4610, which I would also put in as NS 4610.

Freericks
03-04-2011, 02:31 PM
Well, I'm out in la-la-land on this, because yesterday was the first I ever heard of it, but apparently (I am told - won't try to back it up in court) that SOU and PRR are simply markers, like one and two or A & B. They do not relate to Southern or Pennsylvania.

But to be frank, I'm doing here exactly what I do not believe in doing, taking what others have said and repeating it without my own knowledge.

It's a stupid system, if that's the case. Breaks all the rules for why you have reporting marks at all.

Joe the Photog
03-04-2011, 03:03 PM
But to be frank, I'm doing here exactly what I do not believe in doing, taking what others have said and repeating it without my own knowledge.
I suppose I am doing the same. Except I had always understood this to be the case, at least from since I got serious into tis hobby. Since I live in the old Southern Railway system, I always thought it was cool to see "SOU" on the side of an engine. Guess I still do. But over time I had been told this was more of an accounting thing than anything else.

This system they have, for lack of a better word, seems to only be for locomotives as they are plenty of SOU and NW freight cars out in circulation.

Joe the Photog
03-04-2011, 03:05 PM
FWIW, Southern always did things their own way. When they acquired the Norfolk Southern (an old shortline, not to be confused with the current day NS) they got some low hood EMD units. So naturally they rebuilt them with high hoods.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 03:08 PM
Well, I'm out in la-la-land on this, because yesterday was the first I ever heard of it, but apparently (I am told - won't try to back it up in court) that SOU and PRR are simply markers, like one and two or A & B. They do not relate to Southern or Pennsylvania.

But to be frank, I'm doing here exactly what I do not believe in doing, taking what others have said and repeating it without my own knowledge.

It's a stupid system, if that's the case. Breaks all the rules for why you have reporting marks at all.

Think of it as this:

MOST of the units sublettered SOU and N&W WERE units owned by SOU and N&W prior to the NS merger. The units marked GS&F, CoG, CNO&TP, and other roads were for the most part an accounting thing, none of the actual units from these railroads survived to get NS paint or even made it to the NS merger. They also never tracked this way once painted into NS paint, they were NS units. Conrail units once re-numbered (even if sublettered PRR) were tracked NS xxxx.

The exception to this is some of the units purchased after the 1982 NS merger such as the C36-7's (NW), C40-8 (NW), B32-8 (sou), GP59 (sou), which were sublettered for those railroads, not NS. The first units sublettered NS were the C40-8's or GP60's and later.

To further confuse things even more, units sublettered CNO&TP in NS Paint like the GP50's or SOU like the 5200 GP38-2's, never had that sublettering when painted in Southern Railway paint.

One more thing I never realized or noticed until this little exercise is that new power purchased by NS after the merger until the C40-8's: all new 6 axle power had N&W sublettering and all 4 axle power had SOU reporting marks.

The PRR thing was just an artifact of the Conrail merger and just was a way of denoting former conrail units, they were not tracked as PRR xxxx.

In case anyone has not noticed, NS has actually been painting over all these old subletterings or changing them to NS. New paint jobs or repaints the past couple of years have no sublettering at all.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Also, NS painted new railcars in Southern and N&W paint for many years after the merger for an unexplained reason.

CSX plays tricks with railcars too, especially with GONS, they will put B&O reporting marks on a car (in classic CSX spray paint style) that was originally conrail or scl just because. No rhyme or reason, but at least they are consistent with their locomotives. Most of the cars they got from conrail have NYC reporting marks, but they have un-did some of these recently.

jnohallman
03-04-2011, 06:57 PM
For what it's worth, here's the engine I was referring to in the original post. Next time I'm down at Lambert Point, I'll climb over the barbed wire fence, run up to the engine, accost the crew and ask to see the blue card to satisfy Steven. :lol: BTW, this is the rear of the engine . . .

Next question: What are the proper railroad and reporting marks for a US Army locomotive? It carries no markings on the cab.

Jon

Freericks
03-04-2011, 07:09 PM
USAX is US Army.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 07:29 PM
That would be NS 5118

Looked like this when new
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C8626%5CSOU5116RALEIGHAUG83-1200.jpg

coborn35
03-04-2011, 07:58 PM
If you are frustrated by that, check out how CN labels their motive power...

NYC did similar stuff too.
Hows that? The CN has the easiest reporting mark system out there...

jnohallman
03-04-2011, 09:54 PM
That would be NS 5118

Looked like this when new
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C8626%5CSOU5116RALEIGHAUG83-1200.jpg

So, no reporting marks when built for the Southern, but carrying SOU on its cab now that it belongs to NS. Makes perfect sense to me . . . :roll:

Jon

John Craft
03-04-2011, 10:39 PM
When Southern acquired the Central of Georgia, a certain number of units had to be sublettered CG so that if the ownership/lease failed, these units would go back to the host railroad without having to bicker and bitch about which units that they would get. Each subsiderary got a number of units alloted by the size of the railroad at the time of absorption. CNOTP, CG, SOU, LOP&SG, SA, and a few others. The same applied to the SD60s and C39-8s long after the NW takeover of the Southern. NW or SOU..now that all are under one ownership, all new units are just NS with no sublettering.

The only difference is certain lease use that are painted NS, like some of the GP38s that are rebult into the 5500 series are actually owned by First Union leasing but are still lettered NS and sublettered NS, but that is just a financing thing for kick backs."

In quotation marks because I asked an NS egineer friend of mine and this is what he wrote.)

Your friend is kind of right, but the "why" is a little garbled.

When Southern Railway was on its acquisition binge in the 1960s and 1970s, it usually left the acquired property as a separate, wholly-owned subsidiary. And in fact many Southern predecessor entities (like the CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE, etc.) continued to exist as well. There were good reasons for this at the time: different union agreements, different treatments for intrastate traffic rates, tax benefits to the acquired entity, secured bond redemption dates, etc. (There are also tax consequences for 'pooling of interest' mergers, so keeping things separate also lowered the tax bill.)

So, for example, a GS&F Geep was still a GS&F Geep because the GS&F still existed on paper, not because of anything related to "if the ownership/lease failed." They didn't have to STAY on the GS&F, and I occasionally saw GS&F power on work trains in Alabama. And the K&IT switchers worked out their last years at the East Point yard.

He is right that "CNO&TP" and "AGS" continued to acquire locomotives, for example the 7000-series GP50s. But that is because they continued to exist as operating entities, not because of some apportionment based on size at acquisition (really?). I don't recall any of the GA/FL shortline subsidiaries getting new power, only "real" Southern predecessor subsidiaries.

When Southern and N&W "merged" in 1982, they actually remained two separate railroads under common ownership of Norfolk Southern Corporation, and weren't actually merged into a single corporate entity, Norfolk Southern Railroad, until (I think) 1987. [Actually 1990, see below.]

I was under the impression that all of those entities were folded into NS Railroad in 1987. If NS units are still getting SOU markings in fresh paint, it could be because of accounting as above, or because NS has more than 9,999 locomotives (as in the UP vs. UPY reporting marks).

As for what Jonathon should put in the database field, "NS" is probably the most logical (do people input "UPY" locomotives that way?), but Charles' thrust (that what's stencilled on the locomotive means something) has merit. I'm not aware of anything that would prevent NS from using SOU or NW or CNO&TP or AGS as the legal (AAR) reporting marks of a locomotive, as they own the rights to those marks.

EDIT: scroll a few pages into this report (http://www.stb.dot.gov/econdata.nsf/f039526076cc0f8e8525660b006870c9/e0b533cb939e5e9b852574430067c0e9/$FILE/2007%20Annual%20Report%20Form%20R-1's%20Norfolk%20Southern%20Combined%20Railroad%20S ubsidiaries.pdf):

"Effective December 31, 1990, NS transferred all NW stock to SR, and SR's name was changed to Norfolk Southern Railway Company."

So, SOU reporting marks are actually correct for NS.

A few pages later, you'll see that the CNO&TP still exists as a Class 1, and the AGS and CG still exist as Class 2s. (TA&G still exists, as well.)

Whether these entities continue to own locomotives (as opposed to real estate), I don't know.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 11:36 PM
So, no reporting marks when built for the Southern, but carrying SOU on its cab now that it belongs to NS. Makes perfect sense to me . . . :roll:

Jon


I should have linked a Southern GP50, when new no subletters, but after NS painted them, they got CNO&TP subletters.

troy12n
03-04-2011, 11:40 PM
Hows that? The CN has the easiest reporting mark system out there...

Not reporting marks, I was referring to what they mark their locomotive models as: examples below

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=107368

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=82770

John Craft
03-04-2011, 11:53 PM
So, no reporting marks when built for the Southern, but carrying SOU on its cab now that it belongs to NS. Makes perfect sense to me . . . :roll:

Jon

Actually, it does.

Pre-1982, I don't recall seeing any Southern-painted locomotives with 'SOU' sublettering. It wasn't necessary - only non-SOU locomotives painted in SOU colors got them.

Between 1982 and 1990, adding 'NW' and 'SOU' sublettering would make sense. In the same way that SOU owned CNO&TP, CG, etc., NS owned SOU and NW (and CNO&TP, etc.).

Freericks
03-05-2011, 12:03 AM
I think for the purposes of 2011, we have to acknowledge (which was news to me) that the "reporting marks" on NS engines are actually just sublettering and do not operate as real reporting marks even though they are identical to actual reporting marks.

troy12n
03-05-2011, 12:06 AM
Which one of you posted on JREB? :lol:

Joe the Photog
03-05-2011, 12:09 AM
I think for the purposes of 2011, we have to acknowledge (which was news to me) that the "reporting marks" on NS engines are actually just sublettering and do not operate as real reporting marks even though they are identical to actual reporting marks.
Pretty much, yes.

:D

coborn35
03-05-2011, 12:16 AM
Not reporting marks, I was referring to what they mark their locomotive models as: examples below

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=107368

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=82770
Oh I gotcha. Yea they have some odd ones.

CN Railfan
03-05-2011, 12:19 AM
Not reporting marks, I was referring to what they mark their locomotive models as: examples below

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=107368

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=82770

GF-30k
G = General Motors
F = Freight
30 = 3000 HP
k = delivered order

Correct?

trainmaster_1
03-05-2011, 12:30 AM
GF-30k
G = General Motors
F = Freight
30 = 3000 HP
k = delivered order

Correct?

That is correct.

ssw9662
03-05-2011, 02:17 AM
In a nutshell, here are the correct reporting marks used for locomotives of the six major Class Is.

Norfolk Southern: NS, regardless of paint or sublettering.

CSX Transportation: CSXT, regardless of paint or sublettering.

Union Pacific: UP for everything except for the remaining unpatched SP, SSW, and CNW engines, which are marked accordingly.

BNSF Railway: BNSF, except for the "GN" engines mentioned previously.

Canadian Pacific: If it's in CP paint, then the reporting mark is CP. Engines in predecessor schemes (DH, SOO, STLH, DME, ICE, etc.) retain their respective reporting marks.

Canadian National: CN-painted engine use CN marks unless sublettering under the cab says otherwise. Example: if it says IC under the cab, then the reporting marks are IC. This includes engines that never ran for the "real" Illinois Central, such as the ex-LMS Dash 8s and some of the Dash 9s delivered with IC marks. Predecessor engines use the "old" reporting marks.

Hopefully this clear things up. There may be exceptions that I missed, if so feel free to add them.

One more thing I never realized or noticed until this little exercise is that new power purchased by NS after the merger until the C40-8's: all new 6 axle power had N&W sublettering and all 4 axle power had SOU reporting marks.

Keep in mind that most/all of the SD50s and SD60s were delivered with SOU subletters, or in some cases those of SOU predecessors such as CG and AGS.

How would you handle Gulford Units?

How would Cotten Belt have worked?

In the early years Guilford put the "owner" railroad on the long hood of the engine. This road name's reporting mark would be the one used for the engine. In later years, the reporting mark was placed above the cab number as the side lettering was replaced with the more uniform "Guilford Rail System." As far as I know, all of the new Pan Am painted freight engines use MEC marks (not sure about the F units they have).

Cotton Belt used SSW marks right up to the UP takeover. In fact there are still a handful of unpatched SSW engines running around on UP.

PLEzero
03-05-2011, 02:42 AM
Which one of you posted on JREB? :lol:

I did.

There is a very clear explanation posted at the link below. Unless you all would prefer to inaccurately argue "facts". :rolleyes:

http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=10247.0

coborn35
03-05-2011, 03:09 AM
In a nutshell, here are the correct reporting marks used for locomotives of the six major Class Is.

Norfolk Southern: NS, regardless of paint or sublettering.

CSX Transportation: CSXT, regardless of paint or sublettering.

Union Pacific: UP for everything except for the remaining unpatched SP, SSW, and CNW engines, which are marked accordingly.

BNSF Railway: BNSF, except for the "GN" engines mentioned previously.

Canadian Pacific: If it's in CP paint, then the reporting mark is CP. Engines in predecessor schemes (DH, SOO, STLH, DME, ICE, etc.) retain their respective reporting marks.

Canadian National: CN-painted engine use CN marks unless sublettering under the cab says otherwise. Example: if it says IC under the cab, then the reporting marks are IC. This includes engines that never ran for the "real" Illinois Central, such as the ex-LMS Dash 8s and some of the Dash 9s delivered with IC marks. Predecessor engines use the "old" reporting marks.

Hopefully this clear things up. There may be exceptions that I missed, if so feel free to add them.



Keep in mind that most/all of the SD50s and SD60s were delivered with SOU subletters, or in some cases those of SOU predecessors such as CG and AGS.



In the early years Guilford put the "owner" railroad on the long hood of the engine. This road name's reporting mark would be the one used for the engine. In later years, the reporting mark was placed above the cab number as the side lettering was replaced with the more uniform "Guilford Rail System." As far as I know, all of the new Pan Am painted freight engines use MEC marks (not sure about the F units they have).

Cotton Belt used SSW marks right up to the UP takeover. In fact there are still a handful of unpatched SSW engines running around on UP.
UPY engines are not UP XXX they are UPY XXX, hence the UPY part.

Ween
03-05-2011, 03:17 AM
This thread should be retitled:

"Charles Freericks Gets Completely Owned: From Confident 'Expert' Telling It Like It Is to Babbling Pile of Goo"

http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=10247.0

Looks like Troy's making friends at jreb too...

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:24 AM
Bless your little heart.

Ween
03-05-2011, 03:27 AM
Chris... what's it like having no class?

A little bit better than having no clue, Charles...

Ween
03-05-2011, 03:27 AM
Ah. Just a little slow on the Edit feature, Charles...

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:29 AM
Ah. Just a little slow on the Edit feature, Charles...

They both meant the same thing. Not too bright, are we?

Ween
03-05-2011, 03:30 AM
Not too bright, are we?

Hey, I didn't spend two or three pages adamantly arguing on the wrong side of the issue. Just sayin'...

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:33 AM
Are you drunk?

JimThias
03-05-2011, 03:51 AM
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/theMcollection/GIFs/0014gr0b.gif

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:55 AM
Too late... Ween is on ignore. I can't respond.

jnohallman
03-05-2011, 04:29 AM
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/theMcollection/GIFs/0014gr0b.gif

What, you couldn't get the Cameron Diaz/A-Rod popcorn clip? :grin:

Jon

Ween
03-05-2011, 04:54 AM
And here's the re-cap:

- I posted a fake headline as a joke, mostly because I wanted to use the word 'goo'. Plus, I always think it's funny whenever someone is so damn'd sure about their position and then get blown to pieces when the facts are presented, regardless of who it is.

Then Charles:

- Accused me of having no class, thought about that post, and then edited it to the benign 'Bless your little heart' instead.
- Accused me of being dumb.
- Wondered if I was drunk.
- Sent me 2 Private Messages.
- Placed me on his 'Ignore' list.

Since he won't be able to read this, could someone let the ostrich with its head burried in the sand know that it was just a joke? And to avoid confusion, it's the ostrich with the SOU reporting marks...

ssw9662
03-05-2011, 04:57 AM
UPY engines are not UP XXX they are UPY XXX, hence the UPY part.

Correct, I forgot about the UPY engines. Thanks for catching that.

What, you couldn't get the Cameron Diaz/A-Rod popcorn clip? :grin:

Jon

Like this? :lol:
http://hypervocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/AROD-EATS-IT.gif

PLEzero
03-05-2011, 05:00 AM
Hey, I didn't spend two or three pages adamantly arguing on the wrong side of the issue. Just sayin'...

Boom :lol:

And to avoid confusion, it's the ostrich with the SOU reporting marks...

Wait, is it still technically an NS ostrich or SOU ostrich? I'm confused all over again. What if there is a PRR ostrich?

Freericks
03-05-2011, 05:02 AM
You're not on ignore... I changed my mind.

One of those PMs told you why the post was as vicious as it was.

Everyone who's ever been south of the Mason Dixon line even once in their life knows that "Bless your little heart" is a polite way of saying "Screw you."

You should have seen the post that came first, that you didn't see (Bless your little heart was the third version.)

Freericks
03-05-2011, 05:06 AM
Boom :lol:



Wait, is it still technically an NS ostrich or SOU ostrich? I'm confused all over again. What if there is a PRR ostrich?


EL (Erie Lackwanna)

PLEzero
03-05-2011, 05:09 AM
Go Buccos! You really need to stop posting things then change them, it makes it very difficult :-) All friendly of course.

Freericks
03-05-2011, 05:10 AM
Go Buccos! You really need to stop posting things then change them, it makes it very difficult :-) All friendly of course.


Dude... that's the only way to regulate myself.

:shock:

Ween
03-05-2011, 05:12 AM
You really need to stop posting things then change them

Charles is quick to change his mind on things...excpet when it comes to how NS uses reporting marks. [/viciousness free]

Freericks
03-05-2011, 05:15 AM
Charles is quick to change his mind on things...excpet when it comes to how NS uses reporting marks. [/viciousness free]

So true, like trying to figure out if you are funny or lame as a pickle that's been in the fridge for a year.

:-D

coborn35
03-05-2011, 05:30 AM
Boom :lol:



Wait, is it still technically an NS ostrich or SOU ostrich? I'm confused all over again. What if there is a PRR ostrich?
Then we have bigger problems.

troy12n
03-05-2011, 09:54 AM
I did.

There is a very clear explanation posted at the link below. Unless you all would prefer to inaccurately argue "facts". :rolleyes:

http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=10247.0

Which is pretty much exactly what me and Joe have been telling you for the last 3 pages...

Freericks
03-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Which is pretty much exactly what me and Joe have been telling you for the last 3 pages...

Seriously Troy? That's funny, because this is what I wrote on page 2, now what, two days ago?

So, I will now eat some crow, and say Jon, Joe is correct, it should be NS.

Freericks
03-05-2011, 02:21 PM
Wait, is it still technically an NS ostrich or SOU ostrich? I'm confused all over again. What if there is a PRR ostrich?

I actually had my PRRostrich checked already (you need to do if you drink lots of soda, my doctor said).

JimThias
03-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Seriously Troy? That's funny, because this is what I wrote on page 2, now what, two days ago?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Troy replying to Brad?

Freericks
03-05-2011, 02:41 PM
You think?

Doesn't make sense that way, as Brad never argued against what Troy said, and didn't join the thread until after I had admitted that I was wrong.

Besides, Troy's reporting marks are clearly stenciled on his side.

JimThias
03-05-2011, 02:51 PM
You think?

Doesn't make sense that way, as Brad never argued against what Troy said, and didn't join the thread until after I had admitted that I was wrong.

Besides, Troy's reporting marks are clearly stenciled on his side.
Weird that he used "you" when replying to Brad's post, then. That's what threw me off.

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:15 PM
Well, after the way this thread has gone, I'm certainly not one to claim to know what I'm talking about or even understand what others have written.

jnohallman
03-05-2011, 04:41 PM
I've decided to save everyone the trouble and use LNER or DB as the reporting marks instead . . . :twisted:

Jon

troy12n
03-05-2011, 07:09 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Troy replying to Brad?

I was........

troy12n
03-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Keep in mind that most/all of the SD50s and SD60s were delivered with SOU subletters, or in some cases those of SOU predecessors such as CG and AGS.

You know you are right about the SD50/60's, those slipped my mind. The SD50s's had NW sublettering

stevenmwelch
03-05-2011, 07:20 PM
Huh?

I like applesauce. (Had to fill in space)

JimThias
03-06-2011, 12:08 AM
I was........


Charles?

:lol: ;)

Freericks
03-06-2011, 01:41 AM
Told you... I'm clearly lacking in perception and intellect-challenged. Evidence for this has never been stronger than this thread.

I do like the Lehigh & New England.

jnohallman
03-06-2011, 02:49 AM
I do like the Lehigh & New England.

Who said anything about the Lehigh & New England?

Jon

Freericks
03-06-2011, 03:05 AM
Me... you saw that when you quoted my post.

Watain
03-06-2011, 03:06 AM
Everyone who's ever been south of the Mason Dixon line even once in their life knows that "Bless your little heart" is a polite way of saying "Screw you."



Yes, among other things. :lol: Around here at least.

Ween
03-06-2011, 05:05 AM
Told you... I'm clearly lacking in perception and intellect-challenged. Evidence for this has never been stronger than this thread.

So much viciousness in this post...;)

JimThias
03-06-2011, 07:48 AM
Me... you saw that when you quoted my post.

:lol: Well played.

Freericks
03-06-2011, 07:16 PM
So much viciousness in this post...;)

Yeah, that Freericks guys has always been saying nasty crap about me.

Ween
03-06-2011, 11:46 PM
Yeah, that Freericks guys has always been saying nasty crap about me.

Just don't let his kids see that nastiness...

Freericks
03-07-2011, 12:02 AM
That's simple... use a reasonable type, like others would expect. Just take a little thinking... you'll get it one day. Suspect you'll even be tying your shoes on your own soon.

PLEzero
03-07-2011, 03:28 AM
Which is pretty much exactly what me and Joe have been telling you for the last 3 pages...

Oh thanks, Troy. I forgot that just because you wrote it makes it true. I wasn't even involved in the conversation so you weren't telling me anything. I never mentioned that you were wrong but simply going to a source that was reliable to get the facts. I posted it here to help clear things up. Not sure why you have your panties all in a bunch, especially since what I posted helped to back up some of the things you had wrote. Next time I won't bother checking into the issue any more and we can all agree with whatever information you throw out there. ;-) I think it was pretty obvious I was taking a bit of a shot at Sir Freericks. He had already admitted at that point he was wrong. If you'd have read anything since that point you would have realized it was directed at him, he took it like a champ, and we've since moved on.

PArailfan
03-07-2011, 06:31 AM
I don't know who is wrong or right on this issue. I'm just glad it was brought up because I had the same question after photographing a high-hood that still had the SOU reporting marks: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2225851 I just wanted to show you all that there are still some of these out there, and Jon was not making it up.

PLEzero
03-07-2011, 07:54 PM
I don't know who is wrong or right on this issue.

It's NS 5147.

John Craft
03-08-2011, 12:28 AM
Everyone who's ever been south of the Mason Dixon line even once in their life knows that "Bless your little heart" is a polite way of saying "Screw you."

As a Life Long Southerner In Good Standing, I must point out that this is not correct.

The Southernism for "Screw You" (otherwise styled "F$#@ You") is "How nice."

"Bless His Heart" is the Southern equivalent of pointing to the crotchular area and snickering.

Freericks
03-08-2011, 12:51 AM
As a Life Long Southerner In Good Standing, I must point out that this is not correct.

The Southernism for "Screw You" (otherwise styled "F$#@ You") is "How nice."

"Bless His Heart" is the Southern equivalent of pointing to the crotchular area and snickering.

Correction noted.

:lol:

Ween
03-08-2011, 01:06 AM
Owned again!

JRMDC
03-08-2011, 02:18 AM
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/60/messages/809.html

Freericks
03-08-2011, 02:34 AM
Charles Freericks = pinhead bait

Joe the Photog
03-08-2011, 03:55 AM
The Southernism for "Screw You" (otherwise styled "F$#@ You") is "How nice."
I always just said "F*ck you, b*tch." Especially when talking to white males around my age. (It helps if you're both in cars and you don't think he could catch you. As in both in traffic and he cuts you off.)

Freericks
03-08-2011, 03:57 AM
I always just said "F*ck you, b*tch." Especially when talking to white males around my age. (It helps if you're both in cars and you don't think he could catch you. As in both in traffic and he cuts you off.)

Recommendation... if here in LA... don't do that. It won't work out quite the same.

viper
03-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Recommendation... if here in LA... don't do that. It won't work out quite the same.

That applies to most of SoCal, the Bay Area, and most parts of Sac.

John Craft
03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
Charles Freericks = pinhead bait

Nah, you've just got you a stalker.

Bless his heart . . .

Joe the Photog
03-09-2011, 04:22 AM
I caught the 5162 a few weeks ago...

[photoid=355349]

And the 5150 today.

[photoid=356390]

Great album, by the way, if you like the Red Rocker.

Both ex-Southern motors evidently from the same batch, one with "SOU" on the side and the other with "AGS." (Alabama Great Southern, apparently.)