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Soo 6060
03-03-2011, 10:59 PM
GE SUCKS!

GE "locomotives":

-Load up too slow
-Catch fire and explode
-Can't last more than 25 years without having to be sent to the scrapper or sold to other railroads (Trash-8s)
-Have used the same cookie-cutter design for years, and all of their locomotives look exactly the same!!!!!!!!!!

EMD:

-Loads when you ACTUALLY move the throttle
-LAST FOR 50+ YEARS! (CF7s)
-Can rarely be found catching fire
-When they do break down, they break down quietly, and don't explode and kill people!

Photoshooter09
03-04-2011, 11:41 PM
What is your question and what website did you cut and paste that information from? I could point out several inaccuracies with that cut and paste job but it's not worth my time.

It's like classic Canon vs. Nikon, pick whichever one works better for your application and go for it!

crazytiger
03-05-2011, 12:41 AM
After a five second Google search, I got this (http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,293921). Daniel, that's plagiarism. You need to give "Brent" on TO credit (at a bare minimum) for that. You can and will get kicked out of institutions of higher education for that and its every bit as bad as copying one of your photos and presenting this as your own.

stlgevo51
03-05-2011, 01:05 AM
EMD is FAR > GE
What? You spent a whole lot of time (maybe a minute?) pasting an article where many of the advantages are for GE, and you still posted this statement? Why did you post this after posting Brent's opinion which shows the two builders to both be quality products? I don't get it. It seems to be highly contradictory.

Why does everyone whine about this? "GE sucks". "GEs always break down". GEs can't pull a load without exploding". Some railfans whine more than the turbo of a 16-645 (okay, that was a little nerdy) because they can't understand why there are so many GEs. Frankly, I see GEs pulling loads and getting the job done almost always. All coal trains that climb hills with 15,000 tons of coal on the UP are powered by GE AC44s, and I can't recall the last time I saw a GE stall with a train (not that it hasn't happened, but it also happens to EMDs sometimes).

So I will ask you, since you failed to show why EMDs are better, to please explain your reasoning. I'm not a locomotive engineer, so I don't have all of the information on the subject. But at the same time, you are just a railfan as well, so don't act like you are an expert, either (obviously you had to copy-paste someone Else's writing to get your point across, and it still didn't work in my mind).

JRMDC
03-05-2011, 01:38 AM
Jake, does Daniel really deserve the time of day here, does he really deserve to have someone take up his "argument"? Why would anyone care about a few characters of text Daniel managed to type in himself after copy/pasting someone else's words?

jnohallman
03-05-2011, 01:43 AM
It will be particularly interesting to see what happens to EMD in terms of performance and quality now that it is part of CAT. Essentially, we're looking at round three of the competition between EMD and GE. The first round really started with second generation diesels, as GE as we understand it wasn't a builder of first generation units. The second round was the age of Dash-8s, Dash-9s, MACs and ACes, etc. The CAT takeover of EMD marks a new era for that maker, so we'll have to see what happens going forward.

Jon

stlgevo51
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
You are completely right Janusz. I wasted my time. Unfortunately, this seems to be an epidemic. The topic annoys me, because no one wants to say it's just an opinion. Instead, they make up stuff about GEs being "trash", which is completely untrue.

jnohallman
03-05-2011, 02:09 AM
I think some of the affinity for EMD among railfans may be a matter of romanticism, as EMD is the last remaining link to the "glory days" of railroading. All the classic builders are gone - the steam builders who couldn't make the transition successfully to the diesel era, and even the one that did fairly well in Alco. EMD, even though it put all those out of business, is still the company of the E- and F-units, the Geeps and Tunnel Motors and Dash-2s. What is GE by comparison? An upstart that, perhaps more than EMD, people associate with the widecab abomination. So folks who remember, or wish they remembered, the good old days think fondly of EMD and find reasons to look down their noses at GE. Of course, as far as I'm concerned, they've got nothing on Baldwin and Juniata - but that's my own romanticism.

Jon

PLEzero
03-05-2011, 02:10 AM
EMD is FAR > GE

Give me a call when you touch something other than the horn button and actually run trains. Both manufactures have positives and negatives and it all depends on who you talk to. 8-) :roll:

Janusz - You are completely right but I just can't help myself sometimes.

Ween
03-05-2011, 02:23 AM
Massive. Tard. Do you know the difference between the "greater than" and "less than" symbols? Fail.

I think EMD/CAT will have a leg up on Round 3, mostly because of the "save the planet" rules that have to be implemented down the road...

stlgevo51
03-05-2011, 02:29 AM
I think some of the affinity for EMD among railfans may be a matter of romanticism, as EMD is the last remaining link to the "glory days" of railroading. All the classic builders are gone - the steam builders who couldn't make the transition successfully to the diesel era, and even the one that did fairly well in Alco. EMD, even though it put all those out of business, is still the company of the E- and F-units, the Geeps and Tunnel Motors and Dash-2s. What is GE by comparison? An upstart that, perhaps more than EMD, people associate with the widecab abomination. So folks who remember, or wish they remembered, the good old days think fondly of EMD and find reasons to look down their noses at GE. Of course, as far as I'm concerned, they've got nothing on Baldwin and Juniata - but that's my own romanticism.

Jon
I find it ironic that GE got into the diesel electric locomotive market before EMD, with the help Alco, of course! I understand what you mean though. People associate EMD with diesels more so than GE (and that is very logical, since EMD started widespread production of the technology.)

I agree with your statement, and I also think it is because GEs are far more common. Today, for example, I saw 2 trains, and GEs outnumbered EMD 4-1. I think that because all railroads have bought them in large quantities, many railfans find them boring.

Watain
03-05-2011, 02:57 AM
You see more GE's here in the mountains than you do EMD's... As a matter of fact I haven't seen an MAC in 2 years.. Must be for a good reason..

Nothing sounds better to me than a pair of GEVO's throttling up... Except for a Ford Mustang.. :-)

JimThias
03-05-2011, 03:14 AM
Nothing sounds better to me than a pair of GEVO's throttling up... Except for a Ford Mustang.. :-)
Fine. Put that gevo motor in an ACe body and you have a winner. :D

It's all about aesthetics with me. Since I don't drive them and never will, I couldn't care less what's under the hood.

Freericks
03-05-2011, 03:19 AM
You are completely right Janusz. I wasted my time. Unfortunately, this seems to be an epidemic. The topic annoys me, because no one wants to say it's just an opinion. Instead, they make up stuff about GEs being "trash", which is completely untrue.

There is a dearth of interest today in the value of objectivity over subjectivity. I explained the difference to my son once, when he was much younger, as if you see a movie and someone asks you if it is funny, your answer is subjective. Whether you say yes or no, you are giving a response that is based on your feelings.

If someone asks you if you laughed during the movie, however, your answer is objective. It's a simple yes or no statement based on what actually occurred.

I feel like so much today is subjective, which just gets folks in a tizzy. Objective observations are so much more valuable.

stevenmwelch
03-05-2011, 03:49 AM
I'm a little late but as an engineer who runs both of these hunks of crap, I feel pretty confident saying THEY BOTH SUCK! The MAC's load real slow and all the GE's are rattle traps. The MAC's hold the rails VERY VERY well when a GE would be slipping and sliding all over.

Just had a problem two days ago where the morons I work with broke a knuckle, first car, on a 1.58% grade. Luckily the DPU's (two SD75's and a C44-9W) were on somewhat flat ground.. I knew the SD's would grip the rail if I punished them in Run 6 at a standstill. The GEVO and two AC4400CW's on the headend couldn't grip the rails in Run 4... We made it, barely.

All in all, the AC4400's and SD70MAC's suck it up. Give me an ACe anyday.

I'm in agreement with Brad, come back and tell me when you run these units on 18,000 ton coal trains on near 2% grades everyday. MSTS doesn't count. Come out and try it, you break the knuckle, you replace it, and you protect the shove down the hill to double it. On second thought, no, don't come out, I'm not a fan of dying on hours.

Steven M. Welch
Locomotive Engineer/Locomotive Mentor

Ween
03-05-2011, 04:11 AM
Steven's real world experience > Daniel's concept of someone else's re-hashed words.

There, that's how you use the "greater than" symbol...

Freericks
03-05-2011, 04:12 AM
Crap... I don't want to agree with him... I really, really don't want to agree with him... crap... he's right.

stevenmwelch
03-05-2011, 04:54 AM
Crap... I don't want to agree with him... I really, really don't want to agree with him... crap... he's right.

LOLOL!!! I don't know how to use > and < things, so I won't bother agreeing. I'll only laugh.

Hey, don't blame me, it wasn't my decision to go to a California public school. And by "go", I mean, not go for my junior and senior year... You know, SD40's roamed the rails then! ;)

milwman
03-05-2011, 11:12 AM
There is a world of difference from a Dash 9 44 and an AC 44 with GE's Dash 9's drop their load at first sign of wheel slip and AC do well with wheel slip. That's maybe why BNSF is looking hard at ES 44 AC4's and not getting DC from now on.

Hatchetman
03-05-2011, 11:52 AM
The better question is will either of them ever again make an attractive locomotive?

JimThias
03-05-2011, 12:21 PM
LOLOL!!! I don't know how to use > and < things, so I won't bother agreeing. I'll only laugh.

Here, I'll make it easy for you to understand: Donner > Michigan. :D

trainboysd40
03-05-2011, 04:18 PM
Remember? Gators like to eat things that are bigger! That's the most valuable part of my education to date, I believe.

stevenmwelch
03-05-2011, 04:21 PM
There is a world of difference from a Dash 9 44 and an AC 44 with GE's Dash 9's drop their load at first sign of wheel slip and AC do well with wheel slip. That's maybe why BNSF is looking hard at ES 44 AC4's and not getting DC from now on.

Actually, the Dash 9's do pretty well out here compared to the AC4400's... Must just be the engineer ;)

Watain
03-06-2011, 02:18 AM
Fine. Put that gevo motor in an ACe body and you have a winner. :D

It's all about aesthetics with me. Since I don't drive them and never will, I couldn't care less what's under the hood.

I don't know about that one. lol I think the GEVO's look better than most newer engines.

I like Spartan cab SD60/70's and the widecab SD60I's but its rare to see either on a coal train. Never cared much for the MAC's unless they are the CSX ones in YN2 paint.

jnohallman
03-06-2011, 03:12 AM
I think the worst thing, aesthetically, about most modern diesels is the radiator overhangs. Yuck! How about going back to cowl units? The F45 would be a nice inspiration . . . I know, I know - they're not practical platforms for switching because of the lack of visibility.

Jon

JimThias
03-06-2011, 06:55 AM
I think the worst thing, aesthetically, about most modern diesels is the radiator overhangs. Yuck!

I think those "wings" look sweet!

trainmaster_1
03-06-2011, 12:31 PM
I think those "wings" look sweet!

They look cool but they are a pain in the ass, especially if your long hood forward and have to stare at that thing for the entire trip.

troy12n
03-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Other than the obvious "OP does not know what he is talking about" piece, the obvious reason GE units are being purchased is price. Looks mean nothing.

JimThias
03-08-2011, 12:29 AM
Other than the obvious "OP does not know what he is talking about" piece, the obvious reason GE units are being purchased is price. Looks mean nothing.

Of course looks mean nothing to the railroad, but to a photographer such as myself who finds aesthetics important, looks do mean something. But that's neither here nor there.

Soo 6060
03-08-2011, 08:13 PM
After a five second Google search, I got this (http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,293921). Daniel, that's plagiarism. You need to give "Brent" on TO credit (at a bare minimum) for that. You can and will get kicked out of institutions of higher education for that and its every bit as bad as copying one of your photos and presenting this as your own.

But I never claimed it as my own.

I appreciate your taking the time to tell me that this is plagiarism. I had no idea.

However, all of the other Xperts who love GEs.... I'm not impressed.

Nothing more needs to be said.

nikos1
03-08-2011, 10:57 PM
Daniel, why are you even on this forum?.....

bigbassloyd
03-08-2011, 11:45 PM
Baldwins = best choo choo ever.

I would shoot Baldwins all day, and they would be epic photos.

Baldwins were cool because I read somewhere that they were, and they handle so awesome on MSTS with 9999999999 ton coal trains.

That is all.

Loyd L.

jnohallman
03-09-2011, 12:42 AM
Daniel, why are you even on this forum?.....

Because he has not been made to feel the wrath of the banhammer! :shock:

Jon

stlgevo51
03-09-2011, 12:54 AM
Baldwins = best choo choo ever.

I would shoot Baldwins all day, and they would be epic photos.

Baldwins were cool because I read somewhere that they were, and they handle so awesome on MSTS with 9999999999 ton coal trains.

That is all.

Loyd L.

:lol: Great comment!

crazytiger
03-09-2011, 01:33 AM
But I never claimed it as my own.

Um, haven't you ever seen one of the long threads about people using shots w/o permission? Yeah, that's what they all say.

stevenmwelch
03-09-2011, 06:18 AM
However, all of the other Xperts who love GEs.... I'm not impressed.

Umm, who here said they love GE? I sure don't, especially after spending 18 hours stuck on one. Nothing like moving further as light power swapping your headend motor with the DPU because the piece of shit won't move. It was one of your AC4400CW's you posted about...

But, the EMD crap trailing couldn't pull itself out of a soggy paper bag, so its all good, overtime is fine and the seats all feel the same when you're sleeping in them waiting for mechanical and a new crew to take the piece of crap off your hands.

Okay, enough REAL RAILROAD TALK, since apparently you have more experience running trains than I do... I'd still LOL (insert Thias' fat girl LOL picture here) watching you try to drag 17,000 to 18,000 tons up Ambrosia Hill (1.8% for 3 miles in New Mexico) with only 6 motors or better yet, drag Springerville Hill (8 miles of 1.4% in Arizona). Lets put it this way, no matter what the power is, we crest at 8 to 11MPH. Could have the newest and coolest ES44AC's and we still top it at 10MPH. Could have the oldest Dash 9's and it still tops at 10. Could have brand new SD70ACe's, and then, you top at 10. Yeah, and that's from 49MPH. Come give it a whirl, see how far you can make it with a train in one piece. Your years of experience on MSTS will do you well, LOL. (what a damn joke you are)

I need a drink, a nap, and another drink. Who's down?

JimThias
03-09-2011, 11:45 AM
I need a drink, a nap, and another drink. Who's down?

I'll bring a 6 of Sierra. Scratch that...a case! :D

trainboysd40
03-09-2011, 02:19 PM
I need a drink, a nap, and another drink. Who's down?
Welch, you know I'm down for bringin' the bed ;)

viper
03-09-2011, 02:58 PM
If I could find it I'd bring a suitcase of Alaskan Amber (only ever found it in 6'ers). St. Pauli Girl ok?

Soo 6060
03-09-2011, 08:33 PM
Since apparently you have more experience running trains than I do...

Who said that I have more experience than you? I certainly didn't, and certainly do not.

I haven't done anything wrong here. I'm still learning but everyone hates kids.

JRMDC
03-09-2011, 08:47 PM
I haven't done anything wrong here. I'm still learning but everyone hates kids.

People dislike kids when they misbehave, an entirely different thing.

What kind of a life have you had, getting to where you think that everyone hates kids? That's sad. Inaccurate, too. If anything, society these days favors kids in many ways compared to just a few decades ago. In many ways its all about the kids in some parts of society, or more so than before.

And, you forget about the excellent example shown by several "kids" on this very forum.

JimThias
03-09-2011, 09:02 PM
Who said that I have more experience than you? I certainly didn't, and certainly do not.

So your disdain for GE locomotives is based purely on aesthetics, right?

Please reply before you're banned. Thanks.

trainboysd40
03-09-2011, 09:37 PM
Nah, we just hate spergy know-it-alls.

Soo 6060
03-09-2011, 09:42 PM
So your disdain for GE locomotives is based purely on aesthetics, right?

Please reply before you're banned. Thanks.

I hate, hate, hate, GE and love, love, love EMD.

viper
03-09-2011, 10:06 PM
Any particular reason or did one of them do something to you in your childhood?

JimThias
03-09-2011, 10:24 PM
I hate, hate, hate, GE and love, love, love EMD.



You hate, hate, hate GE, yet 23 of your 53 photos in the database are of GE locomotives.

Why do you photograph them if you hate the way they look?

bigbassloyd
03-09-2011, 11:08 PM
You hate, hate, hate GE, yet 23 of your 53 photos in the database are of GE locomotives.

Why do you photograph them if you hate the way they look?

Because the need for validation on RP tears more at his heart then the loathe of GE?

Loyd L.

ssw9662
03-09-2011, 11:55 PM
People dislike kids when they misbehave, an entirely different thing.

What kind of a life have you had, getting to where you think that everyone hates kids? That's sad. Inaccurate, too. If anything, society these days favors kids in many ways compared to just a few decades ago. In many ways its all about the kids in some parts of society, or more so than before.

And, you forget about the excellent example shown by several "kids" on this very forum.

^This.

I've been a member here since age 11 and I'm sure I've made my share of dumb posts (and definitely bad photo submissions) over the years. That said, what I'm reading in this and other threads makes me worry about what my generation is coming to. There's this little thing called "maturity;" try acting like an adult and you will start to earn the respect of other people.

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 01:22 AM
You hate, hate, hate GE, yet 23 of your 53 photos in the database are of GE locomotives.

Why do you photograph them if you hate the way they look?

Because RP.net doesn't want to see good power. As of Jan 1st, 2011 I have stopped shotting GEs, because they're ugly, common, dirty, and even sound like they're going to explode!

Side note: On the CP GEs, when you get to 25mph the HP drops to 4000, and doesn't go back to 4400 until you get down to 15mph...which supposedly saves fuel....so here you have one engine.......GE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen the same train being pulled by a single SD40-2 make decent speed, while a train with a single C40-8W (We get CSX garbage over here, too) stuggle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trainboysd40
03-10-2011, 02:02 AM
Hey kid, ever hear of wheelslip?
Protip: Max tractive effort is somewhere in the teen MPH (Somewhere around your age, and a little above your IQ) and if you ever get the chance to pull the throttle to notch 8 with a unit putting out full horsepower, there's a damn good chance you're going to
A: Break a knuckle
B: Slip until your wheels have melted into the rail.

Now, was it the same train? Same cars? Same loading? Same tonnage? Same weather? Same track conditions?

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 02:24 AM
[...]and if you ever get the chance to pull the throttle to notch 8 with a unit putting out full horsepower, there's a damn good chance you're going to
A: Break a knuckle
B: Slip until your wheels have melted into the rail.


I haven't broken a knuckle and I've ran many o' GE's that were putting out a drawbar-breaking 1600 amps... ;)

I still love his reasoning why he loves EMD's... Every EMD I saw today was filthy, burnt up and it sounded like a swarm of bees attacking you.

coborn35
03-10-2011, 03:24 AM
Tell MN Commerical GE's suck! ;)

This is like a Chevy vs Ford debate.
"Fords always break down on the road!" Funny, mine didnt today.
"Chevys suck!" Why? "They arent Fords!"

You cant reason with stupid people. I would insult Daniel, but that would be like taking candy from a ba... well, Daniel.;)

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 03:31 AM
Tell MN Commerical GE's suck! ;)

They might agree, since their ALCO's are f-ing badass. ;)

But, GE's suck coming from the guy who runs them everyday then when I want to go take photos its a damn parade of orange GE's... (Although I did see a half dozen EMD's today!)

stlgevo51
03-10-2011, 03:42 AM
Actually, if you really want to pull something, or want something fun to shoot, all you need is one of these:
[photoid=128900]
Don't get me wrong, I like EMDs and GEs. But nothing compares to a class A, especially in looks and noise!

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 04:01 AM
Actually, if you really want to pull something, or want something fun to shoot, all you need is one of these:
[photoid=128900]
Don't get me wrong, I like EMDs and GEs. But nothing compares to a class A, especially in looks and noise!

I could get my Dash 9's to smoke like that!!!

stlgevo51
03-10-2011, 04:10 AM
I could get my Dash 9's to smoke like that!!!

I bet you could with those cool ALCOs on the MN Commercial (and the A&M, I've got to get down there!) as well.

"GE's sound like they are going to explode."
and
"When GE's break down they kill people." (Reworded from your first post).
You need to attend a drag race with top fuel cars. They do explode on occasion, and they have been known to kill people.
As far as GE's catching fire: That makes things interesting. I say bring on the flames!!!!!!

JimThias
03-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Because RP.net doesn't want to see good power.

And you have proof of this HOW?



As of Jan 1st, 2011 I have stopped shotting GEs, because they're ugly, common, dirty, and even sound like they're going to explode!

If that means fewer redundant Sturtevant shots...GREAT!

Side note: On the CP GEs, when you get to 25mph the HP drops to 4000, and doesn't go back to 4400 until you get down to 15mph...which supposedly saves fuel....so here you have one engine.......GE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this is relevant to your life how? Oh, I know...it's not. You know NOTHING about the operations of a locomotive, regardless of who the manufacturer is. For every negative statistic you quote from another GE hater, I'm sure an engineer who drives EMDs can offset that with something equally negative.

I've seen the same train being pulled by a single SD40-2 make decent speed, while a train with a single C40-8W (We get CSX garbage over here, too) stuggle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? I've seen a Ford Escort going 80mph down the highway passing a Corvette going 60mph. Corvettes SUCK!!!!

viper
03-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Really? I've seen a Ford Escort going 80mph down the highway passing a Corvette going 60mph. Corvettes SUCK!!!!

I've seen a Camero blow past a Mustang (Pony had lights, Camero had a ticket). Ford sucks! :wink:

jnohallman
03-10-2011, 03:26 PM
FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily
CHEVROLET = Constantly Having Every Vehicle Recalled Over Lousy Engineering Techniques

Now, where did I park my Stanley Steamer? :lol:

Jon

troy12n
03-10-2011, 03:36 PM
FORD = First On Race Day

JimThias
03-10-2011, 04:36 PM
FORD: Found On Road Dead

Backwards: Driver Returns On Foot

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 05:21 PM
FORD: Found On Road Dead

FORD = F*cked Over Rebuild Dodge

Hatchetman
03-10-2011, 05:28 PM
Having driven Fords and Chevys I now drive a Very Wonderful car.

jnohallman
03-10-2011, 05:51 PM
And I drive the Meanest Automotive Zoom-zoom Device Available!

Jon

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm sure an engineer who drives EMDs can offset that with something equally negative.

Ok, well first of all YOU DO NOT DRIVE A TRAIN. YOU RUN OR OPERATE IT. THERE IS NO STEERING WHEEL.

You know NOTHING about the operations of a locomotive, regardless of who the manufacturer is.

So, you'd be able to tell me how to isolate a trailing locomotive? And you'd be able to tell me where the cut-out cocks are for the MU hoses? How about how to cut-out the train brake handle? What and where the battery knife switch is? How long to prime the diesel engine? How to even start it? What the max BC pressure is and what that number is used for? How to perform a daily inspection and when you have to do it? How to setup a locomotive for trailing?

Yes, I know nothing.

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 08:41 PM
So, you'd be able to tell me how to isolate a trailing locomotive? And you'd be able to tell me where the cut-out cocks are for the MU hoses? How about how to cut-out the train brake handle? What and where the battery knife switch is? How long to prime the diesel engine? How to even start it? What the max BC pressure is and what that number is used for? How to perform a daily inspection and when you have to do it? How to setup a locomotive for trailing?

Yes, I know nothing.

Obviously you do know NOTHING since there is no cut-out cock for MU cables. (CABLES, not hoses)

Isolating a unit requires a flip of a switch. A monkey can do that.

I'd love to watch you try to cut in a brand new GEVO for lead air brake setup.

All new diesels prime themselves.

Max brake cylinder pressue varies from unit to unit but usually is in the low 70's range.

Umm, a daily inspection is daily, moron.

Trailing unit:

Cut air brakes to trail position, place automatic brake valve handle in HO (or continuous service), gen field down, all breakers for lead unit ops down.

You THINK you're smart, but you really aren't. Just because you know a few things about trains doesn't make you the next genius of railroading.

Signed,
Steven M. Welch
Locomotive Mentor/Locomotive Engineer
Midland Railway
Grants, NM

mark woody
03-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Ok, well first of all YOU DO NOT DRIVE A TRAIN. YOU RUN OR OPERATE IT. THERE IS NO STEERING WHEEL.



So, you'd be able to tell me how to isolate a trailing locomotive? And you'd be able to tell me where the cut-out cocks are for the MU hoses? How about how to cut-out the train brake handle? What and where the battery knife switch is? How long to prime the diesel engine? How to even start it? What the max BC pressure is and what that number is used for? How to perform a daily inspection and when you have to do it? How to setup a locomotive for trailing?

Yes, I know nothing.

All the above is prep work and any mechanic can perform it, DRIVING A TRAIN requires a sound knowledge of the track ,speed boards, crossings, signals/ safeworking/ grades etc. and driving means moving forward or backwards and does not necessarily involve the need to STEER the vehicle.

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 08:52 PM
All the above is prep work and any mechanic can perform it, DRIVING A TRAIN requires a sound knowledge of the track ,speed boards, crossings, signals/ safeworking/ grades etc. and driving means moving forward or backwards and does not necessarily involve the need to STEER the vehicle.

And now that we've got all these new fangled air brake and train handling rules, you have to know exactly what's going on... If I hiccup once on the hill with loads, we're frogged the railroad for 12 hours and we're riding home in a crew van, not the GEVO we were on...

So, DannyD, how much horsepower can you have online on the headend of an empty bulk unit train? And how many powered axles can you have online on the rear? What's the maximum TOB for non DPU'd trains with hazmat loads in the consist?

How many axles of dynamic braking can I have on the lead consist on a 2800 ton empty coal train tonight? What's my max speed on my train? Should I leave all three units on the rear online? Should I place my third motor on the headend to DB only?

Get a damn life.

jnohallman
03-10-2011, 09:03 PM
Ok, well first of all YOU DO NOT DRIVE A TRAIN. YOU RUN OR OPERATE IT.

Don't tell that to anyone in the birthplace of railroading (that would be England, in case you weren't aware) where they have been driving trains ever since the Rainhill Trials. You do know what those are, right?

Now, for a piece of long overdue advice. "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." (variously attributed to Mark Twain, Abraham Lincoln, Samuel Johnson, and others)

Jon

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 10:55 PM
Obviously you do know NOTHING since there is no cut-out cock for MU cables. (CABLES, not hoses)

Isolating a unit requires a flip of a switch. A monkey can do that.

I'd love to watch you try to cut in a brand new GEVO for lead air brake setup.

All new diesels prime themselves.

Max brake cylinder pressue varies from unit to unit but usually is in the low 70's range.

Umm, a daily inspection is daily, moron.

Trailing unit:

Cut air brakes to trail position, place automatic brake valve handle in HO (or continuous service), gen field down, all breakers for lead unit ops down.

You THINK you're smart, but you really aren't. Just because you know a few things about trains doesn't make you the next genius of railroading.

Signed,
Steven M. Welch
Locomotive Mentor/Locomotive Engineer
Midland Railway
Grants, NM

Obviously you're an engineer, so you're going to know, so quite frankly, I'm not quite sure why it's such a "huge accomplishment" for you to know what you're doing.

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 11:03 PM
So, DannyD, how much horsepower can you have online on the headend of an empty bulk unit train?

Depends on the RR, on the CP it's 9000. (They reference it as either: 2 AC44s or 3 SD40-2s)



And how many powered axles can you have online on the rear?

I don't know, you're throwing me Midland Railway questions.

What's the maximum TOB for non DPU'd trains with hazmat loads in the consist?

" "

How many axles of dynamic braking can I have on the lead consist on a 2800 ton empty coal train tonight?

" "

What's my max speed on my train?

" "

Should I leave all three units on the rear online?

" "

Should I place my third motor on the headend to DB only?

" "

Get a damn life.

Ok. Now stop picking on a child.

trainboysd40
03-10-2011, 11:09 PM
Ok. Now stop picking on a child.
Okay, now stop acting like one who knows everything.

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 11:11 PM
Okay, now stop acting like one who knows everything.

Yeah, if he knew as much as he told Jim, he'd know all the answers to my questions. . . Matty, come be my engineer, at least you know something about trains... ;)

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 11:13 PM
Obviously you're an engineer, so you're going to know, so quite frankly, I'm not quite sure why it's such a "huge accomplishment" for you to know what you're doing.

How can a 9 year old like you know how to do all these things, you can't be an engineer? If you've never ran these locomotives you only opinion can be those of a true foamer - just by looks. You have no idea that the GE's load just as slow (if not slower) than a GE.. Who's the maker with all the switchers around? EMD. Wonder why? They load fast.

You have ABSOLUTELY no room to throw your opinion around of EMD/GE's operating if you've never ran them.. riding in one doesn't count either. I run these things on a daily basis for hours at a time, I think I can tell people my opinion. But, a foamer who just drools and chokes his chicken to the sight of EMD's or GE's or ALCO's (I like Alco's personally) has no room to say an opinion of how one runs.

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 11:17 PM
Okay, now stop acting like one who knows everything.

Okay.......




I mean, I have no problem with that.

Soo 6060
03-10-2011, 11:19 PM
How can a 9 year old like you know how to do all these things, you can't be an engineer? If you've never ran these locomotives you only opinion can be those of a true foamer - just by looks. You have no idea that the GE's load just as slow (if not slower) than a GE.. Who's the maker with all the switchers around? EMD. Wonder why? They load fast.

You have ABSOLUTELY no room to throw your opinion around of EMD/GE's operating if you've never ran them.. riding in one doesn't count either. I run these things on a daily basis for hours at a time, I think I can tell people my opinion. But, a foamer who just drools and chokes his chicken to the sight of EMD's or GE's or ALCO's (I like Alco's personally) has no room to say an opinion of how one runs.

Shoot me some questions from the GCOR.

jnohallman
03-10-2011, 11:21 PM
Ok. Now stop picking on a child.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm going to offer you some unsolicited advice here, as I have in other threads. You've picked the fight with your inflammatory statements, and then added fuel to the fire using statements based on your supposed expertise. But when someone calls you on your statements by presenting facts, you claim they're picking on you. It's really quite simple - if you don't want people questioning your knowledge or lack thereof, don't put yourself out there with statements like that. Sometimes it's best just to let things go. And you'd also to do well to think twice before even starting a thread like this one, which was just asking for a flame war.

Jon

mark woody
03-10-2011, 11:30 PM
Ok, well first of all YOU DO NOT DRIVE A TRAIN. YOU RUN OR OPERATE IT. THERE IS NO STEERING WHEEL.



So, you'd be able to tell me how to isolate a trailing locomotive? And you'd be able to tell me where the cut-out cocks are for the MU hoses? How about how to cut-out the train brake handle? What and where the battery knife switch is? How long to prime the diesel engine? How to even start it? What the max BC pressure is and what that number is used for? How to perform a daily inspection and when you have to do it? How to setup a locomotive for trailing?

Yes, I know nothing.

Probably watched someone cut out an A7 or B7EL control stand :lol::lol:

Steven Alco's were cool in my day and many still running over here.

trainboysd40
03-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Matty, come be my engineer, at least you know something about trains... ;)
Okay, just don't ask me to fiddle with the distributed power or handle a major downgrade. That crap's tricky. Most I've done is 3 SD40-2s, 50 cars on a 1.3% grade. (Damned if I know whether that's compensated or not, but it didn't take much to keep it below the speed limit with all those curves!)

stevenmwelch
03-10-2011, 11:36 PM
Okay, just don't ask me to fiddle with the distributed power or handle a major downgrade. That crap's tricky. Most I've done is 3 SD40-2s, 50 cars on a 1.3% grade. (Damned if I know whether that's compensated or not, but it didn't take much to keep it below the speed limit with all those curves!)

I just got the call for an empty coal train (ALL GE'S DANIEL, I HOPE I MAKE IT SINCE THEY SUCK SO MUCH OH NO!) but best I ever did was 3 x 2, all GE's (AGAIN, WHAT'S UP WITH GE'S!!!) 18,058 tons, 1.8% at Ambrosia and we crested it at 4MPH. Got 4800' over the hill and then had to ride 17 pounds down the hill, at 49MPH. Weee!

Sadly empties are more work since we have to only run 1 unit on the rear and have to run with the fence up, can't put out more than 350 amps pushing on the back.. Headend can only have 12 axles of power, but can have 24 of dynamics, so that means the second unit goes to DB only. Too much work.

Later. . . BNSF 4004 East, out.

JimThias
03-11-2011, 12:46 AM
Ok, well first of all YOU DO NOT DRIVE A TRAIN. YOU RUN OR OPERATE IT. THERE IS NO STEERING WHEEL.


Is it a vehicle? Does the vehicle go in motion? A vehicle doesn't need to be able to steer to be drivable.

JimThias
03-11-2011, 12:54 AM
Obviously you're an engineer, so you're going to know, so quite frankly, I'm not quite sure why it's such a "huge accomplishment" for you to know what you're doing.

So, in other words, you would NOT know what you're doing when it comes to driving a train, right?

Ok, so back to my original point...you only dislike GEs because you don't like the way they look. Fine, I don't care for high hoods either, but I really don't give a damn how well they operate.

You threw out a bunch of stuff earlier about locomotives that has NOTHING to do with driving one which, again, was what you were called out on to begin with. If you don't know what it's like to drive one, then you shouldn't throw out your opinion as if you DO know.

I have no clue on how to drive one myself, and I don't care to have a clue. It's not my job to drive a locomotive. But the difference is that I know better than to try to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about when I have no clue. Unfortunately you haven't been able to exercise that yourself.

Soo 6060
03-11-2011, 01:24 AM
So, in other words, you would NOT know what you're doing when it comes to driving a train, right?

Ok, so back to my original point...you only dislike GEs because you don't like the way they look. Fine, I don't care for high hoods either, but I really don't give a damn how well they operate.

I mean, I'm not fighting anyone, here. I don't know why you people get this way. I'm particularly disappointed in your last few posts, Jim. I thought actually meeting one of the more "famous" RP forum guys was a neat experience, but I guess that means damn nothing.

Anyway, my philosophy (A 9 year old uses THAT word? :shock:) on GE and why I hate it is that:

They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack
They can't last more than 25 years without going to the scrapper
They can't last more than 25 years without go to the second hand market

Also:

People who love GEs tend to have the reputation to mess with me, Like Max Medlin, and all of these other Youtube users.

stlgevo51
03-11-2011, 02:01 AM
Also:

People who love GEs tend to have the reputation to mess with me, Like Max Medlin, and all of these other Youtube users.

It seems like people who hate GEs (I'm not saying "only like EMDs") seem to be very confrontational people. Not only do they argue a lot, but they seem steadfastly dedicated to prove "GE lovers" wrong. I don't care that you don't like GEs (I don't fully understand it, but it is just an opinion), but I, like most people on this forum, think you are acting like way to much of a "know it all" (for lack of a better term).

As far as RP not wanting to see good power, please tell me how this is true. I think the whole point of RP is to show off good photography. If a special unit or a consist with good power meets all of the guidelines, than sure, it will get in. But if the shot doesn't meet the guidelines, no matter what the power, it most likely will not. It is such a simple concept. I still don't know where you came up with such a statement.

Jake- still waiting excitedly to see some flames billowing from the stack of an AC44!

nikos1
03-11-2011, 02:06 AM
Anyway, my philosophy (A 9 year old uses THAT word? :shock:) on GE and why I hate it is that:
Here we go with the third grade honor student crap again......:roll:


They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack
They can't last more than 25 years without going to the scrapper
They can't last more than 25 years without go to the second hand market


Opinions, opinions, opinions..............every railfan has their likes and dislikes, but no need to start a whole thread about it. You wouldve had a better case if you had stated you dont like them on a aesthetic dimension rather than trying to make up some BS on how GE's suck because the way they run. I dont care for GE widecabs either (love Dash 7's and U-Boats though) but I dont go around pretending that I know about how they run. Maybe you got to go sit in the cab of an EMD and blow the horn, good for you, doesnt mean you know a thing though.


Also:

People who love GEs tend to have the reputation to mess with me, Like Max Medlin, and all of these other Youtube users.

From what I know about Max, I hardly think he is a "multiple expletives deleted GE lover", he just thinks rationally as opposed to your irrational hatred of GE's and your need to constant need to voice it.
Again, its your own fault if you want to instigate flamewars, dont go running back to your mommy to have her write letters to the nasty people on the forum.

jnohallman
03-11-2011, 02:08 AM
I mean, I'm not fighting anyone, here. I don't know why you people get this way. I'm particularly disappointed in your last few posts, Jim. I thought actually meeting one of the more "famous" RP forum guys was a neat experience, but I guess that means damn nothing.

Anyway, my philosophy (A 9 year old uses THAT word? :shock:) on GE and why I hate it is that:

They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack
They can't last more than 25 years without going to the scrapper
They can't last more than 25 years without go to the second hand market



With all due respect, you can't say "I'm not fighting anyone" and then go on to rehash the business that started this whole thread by restating your disdain for GE. I'm afraid it just isn't helping your case, and only encourages certain people to keep piling on. It isn't my intention to do that, and I'm sorry if it seems like I am, but I really am trying to help you see what brings on what reactions. Beyond that, the first 7 reasons you list for hating GE are entirely subjective - they're your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, but they don't empirically make the case for EMD being better the GE or vice-versa. As far as aesthetics and sounds go, I like steam engines a lot better that diesels. But that doesn't make them a better product objectively. That's why those kind of statements just cause fights. As for the last 3 reasons you mention, here are a couple things to consider.

1. Anything with a turbocharger is subject to blowing up and shooting flames when (not if, when) the turbocharger fails. There was a rather interesting article in a recent issue of TRAINS magazine about the subject. It's worth finding and reading for anyone with a general interest in the subject.
2 & 3. 25 years to the scrapper or second-hand market. Not only are the statements contradictory - if they go on the second-hand market, they're not going to the scrapper - but they also relate to a good many EMD products of the last generation as well. The GP 50 and SD 50 were both flops. An awful lot of SD 60s seem to have ended up in the hands of leasing companies. But the other thing to keep in mind is that the tightening up of EPA emissions regulations has a lot to do with the replacement of even relatively new power that no longer meets the standards. Besides, if you look at the history of railroading, there are an awful lot of engines from all kinds of manufacturers that didn't make it to 25 years in primary assignments on Class I railroads. Those that did were exceptions.

Jon

Soo 6060
03-11-2011, 02:09 AM
Jake- still waiting excitedly to see some flames billowing from the stack of an AC44!

It's in one of the most recent Trains magazine articles.

jnohallman
03-11-2011, 02:12 AM
Incidentally, it's the very fact that turbos with a lot of mileage on them are susceptible to blowing up that led to the removal of the turbochargers and resulting derating of a lot of older EMD power, which is partly responsible for the extended lives of those units.

Jon

JimThias
03-11-2011, 03:11 AM
I'm particularly disappointed in your last few posts, Jim. I thought actually meeting one of the more "famous" RP forum guys was a neat experience, but I guess that means damn nothing.

Hey, I just submit pictures to this website. I don't have anything to do with being "famous"...whatever that means.

Anyway, my philosophy (A 9 year old uses THAT word? :shock:) on GE and why I hate it is that:

They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack


So, in other words, you hate they way they look. That's all I've been trying to get you to admit from the start since you know nothing about running them. Great. I'm glad you finally admitted it.

You know, I'm glad I don't understand this GE vs. EMD thing. I can't even grasp the concept of why a railfan would have any say in the matter. I just take pictures. If the locomotive is clean and attractive, that's all I care about. I couldn't care less who made it.

trainboysd40
03-11-2011, 04:29 AM
I mean, I'm not fighting anyone, here. I don't know why you people get this way. I'm particularly disappointed in your last few posts, Jim. I thought actually meeting one of the more "famous" RP forum guys was a neat experience, but I guess that means damn nothing.

Anyway, my philosophy (A 9 year old uses THAT word? :shock:) on GE and why I hate it is that:

They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack
They can't last more than 25 years without going to the scrapper
They can't last more than 25 years without go to the second hand market

Also:

People who love GEs tend to have the reputation to mess with me, Like Max Medlin, and all of these other Youtube users.
Oi oi oi, insult what you like, but do NOT blanket insult horns! The CP AC4400CW horns are quite lovely, thank you very much!
Oh, and you don't like them because they're too common? Well boo freaking hoo, if you had your way EMDs would be too common, would you hate them for that then?

stevenmwelch
03-11-2011, 08:04 AM
Jake- still waiting excitedly to see some flames billowing from the stack of an AC44!

I got my third motor tonight to spit fire... And I got my EMD DPU (SD75I) to go belly up, too.. Guess those EMD's are still far superior? At least the Dash 9 that was breathing fire got me up and over the hill!

Thanks DandyDan for proving that you're only a damn foamer with no knowledge of how to run a train.

stevenmwelch
03-11-2011, 08:15 AM
They sound like they're going to explode
They have garbage horns
They have ugly trucks
They have an ugly carbody
They have an ugly cab
The radiators are ugly, especially the GEVOs
They're too common
They blow up and shoot fire out of the stack
They can't last more than 25 years without going to the scrapper
They can't last more than 25 years without go to the second hand market


Garbage horns? And EMD's K3's are any better?

Ugly trucks? The EMD 70 series trucks look pretty similar to the CP Hi-Ad's.

Carbody looks fine to me.

Cab does too.

Radiators are bitchin, unless you're 6'4" like me and have to duck when walking by them.

Too common? Last I checked there were a crapload of EMD's, too.

Fire is cool.

Hmm, check out the SD50's, where are they? Leased or filled with Pepsi. . .


I'm with Jim. . . If its clean, its fine with me. . . But as an engineer, hell, I dunno, give me a few SD45's and a couple Dash 9's and I'd be content.

(Just finished yanking 118 empties up the 1.8% with only 1 unit online, nothing like 14MPH and 1400 amps!! Hey, it was a GE, too!)

jnohallman
03-11-2011, 01:21 PM
Thanks DandyDan for proving that you're only a damn foamer with no knowledge of how to run a train.

Alright Steven. My turn to call you out now that I've spent time trying to get your target to calm down. You're even worse than he is. If you feel the need to point out that his statements are outlandish, there are better ways to do it than to be demeaning and denigrating. And if you get some kind of perverse pleasure out of piling on, so much the sadder for you.

Jon

Ween
03-11-2011, 03:06 PM
MINI = awesome

jnohallman
03-11-2011, 03:29 PM
MINI = awesome

I didn't think those giant telesmash lenses would fit inside a MINI! :lol:

Jon

Soo 6060
03-11-2011, 08:23 PM
Garbage horns? And EMD's K3's are any better?

Ugly trucks? The EMD 70 series trucks look pretty similar to the CP Hi-Ad's.

Carbody looks fine to me.

Cab does too.

Radiators are bitchin, unless you're 6'4" like me and have to duck when walking by them.

Too common? Last I checked there were a crapload of EMD's, too.

Fire is cool.

Hmm, check out the SD50's, where are they? Leased or filled with Pepsi. . .


I'm with Jim. . . If its clean, its fine with me. . . But as an engineer, hell, I dunno, give me a few SD45's and a couple Dash 9's and I'd be content.

(Just finished yanking 118 empties up the 1.8% with only 1 unit online, nothing like 14MPH and 1400 amps!! Hey, it was a GE, too!)

But why does everyone have to bash my opinion?

milwman
03-11-2011, 08:37 PM
But why does everyone have to bash my opinion?

Its the way you word it, Comes off wrong.

PLEzero
03-11-2011, 09:20 PM
I think it's time to cut this kid some slack. We all know he has some learning to do and I think we've all had an opportunity to express our opinions. Is it really necessary that some of you continue to argue with someone that is so much younger than almost everyone else on the forum? Some of the adults here have just as much growing up to do as Daniel. It was amusing for a while but now it's time we all just let it go.

Daniel, sometimes less can be more. It's time you take a break and let this pass over. You're only continuing to hurt your reputation at this point.

Ween
03-11-2011, 11:41 PM
I didn't think those giant telesmash lenses would fit inside a MINI! :lol:

Jon

Oh, no, they do, but do you think I'm allowed to railfan in the MINI?!? :D

Watain
03-13-2011, 08:35 AM
Trains are awesome.

Freericks
03-13-2011, 12:43 PM
But why does everyone have to bash my opinion?

I've got no dog in this fight. Last good looking GE was the cab unit set of demonstrators that ran on the Erie and then UP bought in the 1950s.

Last good looking EMD was the FP45.

But here's the thing... I just gave an opinion, and everyone is now free to jump on and attack it. Why? Because it is just that... an opinion, my feelings (possibly based on some objective data, possibily purely subjective, however, either way, by its very nature, an attack itself on someone else's opinion).

There are folk who think the U25C was a great looking locomotive. My first statement above, whether true or not for me, is still an attack on their opinion, because it tacitly states that I am saying that my opinion is better than theirs.

It doesn't matter what board you post on, or what topic you choose, if you take a side on something (swimming pools are ugly, Kia's are cheap, rocky road is the best ice cream) you will have other people who feel differently read that and feel challenged.

If you want to post an opinion like EMD is greater than GE, you just have to accept that you are starting a battle. If you are up for the battle, have fun at it. If you don't want the battle, you're better off posting less opinion and more requests for advice and assistance. It' 100% up to you, which you prefer.

coborn35
03-15-2011, 04:22 PM
Wow. Give this fool the banhammer already.
And for the record Jim, no one refers to it as driving. That was annoying me too :)
In the UK you drive, in the US you "run" or "operate" a locomotive.

CN Railfan
03-16-2011, 02:01 AM
I just enjoy getting out and capturing whatever railroad action I can chance upon.

JimThias
03-16-2011, 03:17 AM
And for the record Jim, no one refers to it as driving. That was annoying me too :)
In the UK you drive, in the US you "run" or "operate" a locomotive.
I couldn't care less what anyone refers to it as. Simply put, it's driving.

mark woody
03-16-2011, 03:33 AM
I couldn't care less what anyone refers to it as. Simply put, it's driving.

Agreed. Over here Locomotive Enginemen [proper term] are called enginemen over there they are engineers, long story short they are train drivers.

coborn35
03-16-2011, 03:43 AM
Fine by me, just sounds really dumb.

JimThias
03-16-2011, 04:26 AM
Fine by me, just sounds really dumb.
Sorry, can't help you with that one.

coborn35
03-16-2011, 04:42 AM
Doesnt need any helping, to each his own.

BarrySr
04-03-2011, 01:38 PM
...They have garbage horns...





Damned garbage horns! Always get in my way when I have to remove them before I take out the trash.

Oh; and yeah, those stupid garbage horns REALLY get annoying when I'm checking in the WM trucks to the landfill here in Lewisville, TX. I mean, can you IMAGINE the sound of HUNDREDS of garbage horns going off in those trucks?! Can't hardly hear yourself think!

BarrySr
04-03-2011, 01:43 PM
...Also:

People who love GEs tend to have the reputation to mess with me, Like Max Medlin, and all of these other Youtube users.

Glad to meet you, sir. We're gonna get along juuuuuuuuuuuuust fine; hehehe....:twisted:

BarrySr
04-03-2011, 01:47 PM
There are folk who think the U25C was a great looking locomotive.


Huh? You talkin' to me; you TALK - IN' ta ME?!

I think you're talking about, ohhh, maybe 2 - 3 people...:lol:

JRMDC
04-03-2011, 04:52 PM
Somehow already thin attempts at humor fall even flatter when expressed 18 days after the previous post in a thread. :)

EMD
04-16-2011, 03:22 PM
First off, I’m kindda embarrassed that my first reply in this forum goes to a”which one is better” kind of topic.

My opinion is that you guys (I’m not American) should be proud of your country’s rail heritage, especially the diesels’. I think that what US has produced thus far is of an excellence of itself.
I love US engines, their looks, power but especially their sounds. They’re unique and I’m sure they’re good, reliable and effective too, otherwise you would start importing locos.

I’m also one that is a little EMD biased. And that is mainly because – from what I’ve read, seen or discussed – they seem more in line with the general view of what’s more American kind of way, if you understand what I mean. Kindda like: why most truckers prefer Peterbilts to K-Whoppers or Fords? Looks, sounds and mostly depending to which fan side you’re talking to.
But I also like what GE is building and boy, do I miss ALCO? I’ve met more people of an advanced age telling me that if they could run trains again, they would only choose Alcos if they could… Yet Alco, in spite of their huge know-how, well built machines and a decent fan base had to dip the flag and admit that others were better; not particularly at building locos but at the whole spectrum of surviving the business of building locos. ‘Cose yes, after all, it’s a business.

EMDs are better then GEs? I don’t think so. Besides, there might be tons of reasons why Amtrak chose a GE replacement for their EMD F40PHs. It’s probably because GE spends a lot more time in R&D of other areas like speed, economy, foreign technology, design features and the likes; in other words being the builder that’s more open to other less American ideas…
But then again, ALCO built legends: the Challengers and the BigBoys. EMD did it too with SD40 series. Yet GE, all taken, appears to have failed in this department. Could it also be this that boosts the “Boo-GE” camp????

One has also to remember that EMD was always kind of the smaller of the two in terms of finances. That surely impacts on a series of things that limits other things. Now with a new-found rich parent in Caterpillar I wonder what new things would flash the EMD badge to the future?

Both are great. Both have (like all things) pluses and minuses.
But in the end, be proud you have them!

Andrew Hamblyn
06-01-2011, 07:38 PM
Yay!! A GE vs EMD debate! :D

Here in li'l ol' New Zealand, on he mainlin we have two models of EMD export locos (both built by GMDD Canada) and one built by GE.

Personally I am a big fan of our 35 year old GE's (rebuilt several times over) than our 30 year old rebuilt GM's.

Why? Well the GE's ( http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=364839 ) are heavier, have more horsepower, will pull anything and all have recently (last 5 years or so) been rebuilt with Brightstar control systems and brand new cabs with very good ergonomics for the LE's. They are very comfy and uber reliable.

Now, to be fair, our GM's are only 2400hp (turbo 645-12) vs our GE's 3000hp (7fdl12) and are about 10 tons lighter, and quite slippery on their feet.
( http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=307041 )

Unmolested the GM's were pretty responsive compared to the GE's and when fitted with a locally made wheelslip module ( Maxitrax ) they could pull like nothing, just somewhat slower than the GE's.
The Maxitrax modules wore out, and the designer fled the country and took his intellectual property with him so our railway boffins decided that GE's Brightstar system would be a good replacement to manage the GM locos, but how sadly wrong they were, and they turned an ok loco into a dog really quickly.
Long story short, they stopped fitting Brightstar to the GM locos and started using the big GE's on services to replace the now useless GM locos.

Our GM's were rebuilt in the early 90's, fitted with turbos locally and had extra weight added, but now 20 years on they shake and rattle and bounce and wobble something feirce and not very nice to operate....

Plus our GE's spit out flames, sound fantastic and go hard. Also due to the local operation I spend more time in GE's than GM's.... sweet!

Andrew Hamblyn
Loco Engineer,
Kiwi Rail
NZ

JimThias
06-02-2011, 02:24 AM
I’m also one that is a little EMD biased. And that is mainly because – from what I’ve read, seen or discussed – they seem more in line with the general view of what’s more American kind of way, if you understand what I mean.

Not sure I understand, but just for S & G, I'd have to say GE is much more the "American way" than EMD considering Thomas Edison had something to do with the creation of the company back in the 1800s. It doesn't get any more "American" than that! :D

jnohallman
06-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Not sure I understand, but just for S & G, I'd have to say GE is much more the "American way" than EMD considering Thomas Edison had something to do with the creation of the company back in the 1800s. It doesn't get any more "American" than that! :D

GE has also apparently found out a way to avoid paying taxes, which is also the "American way" . . . :lol:

Jon

JRMDC
06-02-2011, 03:44 PM
Not sure I understand, but just for S & G, I'd have to say GE is much more the "American way" than EMD considering Thomas Edison had something to do with the creation of the company back in the 1800s. It doesn't get any more "American" than that! :D

Well, how much more "American" can one get than General Motors, as in baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet?

GE has also apparently found out a way to avoid paying taxes, which is also the "American way" . . . :lol:

Jon

ha ha ha ha, sad but true

I presume that GM, having received billions in a bailout, or the government having lost billions during its period of ownership, or whatever the details are, is also practicing a form of the "American way".

Please, please, let's not get into an argument about whether the bailout or TARP, etc., were worth it! Let's just enjoy train photography here. :) :)

Freericks
06-02-2011, 04:54 PM
Not sure I understand, but just for S & G, I'd have to say GE is much more the "American way" than EMD considering Thomas Edison had something to do with the creation of the company back in the 1800s. It doesn't get any more "American" than that! :D

More American that General Motors?

You ever hear the quote, "As GM goes, so goes the nation?"

How about "What's good for General Motors is good for the country and vice-versa?"

As J noted, "They go together, in the good old USA, baseball and hotdogs, apple pie, and cheverolet."

"See the USA in your Cheverolet."

None of which is to say GE isn't American, but it doesn't get more American than GM.

Willie Durant is spinning in his grave.

JimThias
06-03-2011, 11:21 AM
None of which is to say GE isn't American, but it doesn't get more American than GM.

To me, GE is more of an American iconic business name than GM, but that's just me. ;)

troy12n
06-03-2011, 01:11 PM
To me, GE is more of an American iconic business name than GM, but that's just me. ;)

Neither is as American as POM Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Movie Ever Sold

bigbassloyd
06-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Neither is as American as POM Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Movie Ever Sold

F-C-I-G Awesome.

That is all

Loyd L.

jnohallman
06-03-2011, 03:24 PM
EMD is not the same as GM. It didn't start out under GM, and hasn't been a part of GM since 2005. That doesn't make it any less American, though.

Jon

stlgevo51
06-03-2011, 08:09 PM
Aren't you guys forgetting ALCO?

Freericks
06-03-2011, 08:25 PM
EMD is not the same as GM. It didn't start out under GM, and hasn't been a part of GM since 2005. That doesn't make it any less American, though.

Jon

Many of GM's parts began as independent companies.

General Electric began in the locomotive business as Alco's partner.

Regarding Alco, they've sadly been gone for 42 years (Fairbanks Morse, Baldwin and Lima have been gone for longer).

J
06-03-2011, 08:45 PM
Regarding Alco, they've sadly been gone for 42 years (Fairbanks Morse, Baldwin and Lima have been gone for longer).

As for locomotive (in North America) go, that is correct. India has a huge fleet of Alco-powered locomotive built under license and Fairbanks Morse still markets their 38D opposed piston engine and the Alco 251 engine for industrial power uses.

http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/engine_fm_alco_251.php

JRMDC
06-03-2011, 09:28 PM
As for locomotive (in North America) go, that is correct. India has a huge fleet of Alco-powered locomotive built under license and Fairbanks Morse still markets their 38D opposed piston engine and the Alco 251 engine for industrial power uses.

http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/engine_fm_alco_251.php

Wow, I didn't know, I thought the opposed piston engine was an engineering failrure!

JimThias
06-03-2011, 10:46 PM
Neither is as American as POM Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Movie Ever Sold

:lol: Good one.

troy12n
06-03-2011, 11:03 PM
Wow, I didn't know, I thought the opposed piston engine was an engineering failrure!

FM was not very successful in Railroad applications due to "things other than the engine" (trucks & electrical system mainly) and poor marketing, but those engines are virtually indestructible and used extensively in Naval applications, earth moving equipment and cranes and other industrial applications.

Some RR's were huge on FM, such as the Virginian RY which was exclusively FM after dieselization (apart from their Electric operations). Their 6 axle trainmasters were used successfully by N&W as yard engines in their bigger coal terminals (Norfolk, Portsmouth, Bluefield, Mullens) well into the 70's.

Freericks
06-03-2011, 11:10 PM
FM was not very successful in Railroad applications due to "things other than the engine" (trucks & electrical system mainly) and poor marketing, but those engines are virtually indestructible and used extensively in Naval applications, earth moving equipment and cranes and other industrial applications.

Some RR's were huge on FM, such as the Virginian RY which was exclusively FM after dieselization (apart from their Electric operations). Their 6 axle trainmasters were used successfully by N&W as yard engines in their bigger coal terminals (Norfolk, Portsmouth, Bluefield, Mullens) well into the 70's.

I was on the USS Salt Lake City maybe ten or so years ago and noticed the back up power was a Colt OP engine.

J
06-03-2011, 11:56 PM
FM was a long-time supplier of industrial equipment including pumps, large and small engines, scales, windmills, rail inspection cars, etc. After a few hesitant starts in the locomotive business (a switch engine and a Southern railcar) FM entered the business in a big way after WWII; a seemingly great time to participate in the huge replacement of steam locomotives. However their start was slow (partnering with GE to manufacture "Erie Builds") and they needed a break through design to differentiate themselves from the competition. The 2400 HP Train Master was the most powerful unit available when it began touring in 1953. Available with steam heat boiler, schedule 24 , powerful dynamic brakes it was intended (and did) serve any purpose including heavy acceleration commute power (CNJ and SP), heavy drag freight (Virginian and Wabash) etc. By this time other builders (including some who would later fail) had built hundreds more units than FM so they were relegated to being a niche player. Even so, when properly maintained they were very successful. SP used Train Masters in the Bay Area (demanding service - environmental concerns) until they reached 20. Supposedly one factor in their success was available retired navy personnel who had worked on FM ship power during their tours.
The next time you visit San Francisco, head over to Fisherman's Wharf where you can tour the submarine SS POMPANO (equipped with FM diesels.).

Freericks
06-04-2011, 12:12 AM
Do the TVA units still work in regular service?

milwman
06-04-2011, 10:50 AM
FM was not very successful in Railroad applications due to "things other than the engine" (trucks & electrical system mainly) and poor marketing,

And damn expensive to work on, You had to pull the block to work on the lower half.

trainboysd40
06-04-2011, 03:32 PM
That's right...they could hold the rail like nothing else, but maintenance was their downfall. The area I'm modelling used CP's entire fleet of F-M locomotives (Built by CLC, of course) up until they started retiring them in the early- to mid-70s. They say that a single H16-44 could handle the same tonnage as 3 GP9s up the 4.whatever % Warfield hill...

BrandonT
06-05-2011, 06:51 AM
The only railroading experience I have is from MSTS, so I really don't know how GE's and EMD's "drive." :lol:
I do know a thing or two about flying gliders, but that's a little different! :roll:
I'll take whatever train I can get!

viper
06-06-2011, 05:37 PM
The next time you visit San Francisco, head over to Fisherman's Wharf where you can tour the submarine SS POMPANO (equipped with FM diesels.).

Not to nitpick but...

That would be USS PAMPANITO (SS-383). SS POMPANO would be a merchie, not a fleet boat. There was a USS POMPANO (SS-181) however but she's on eternal patrol, not at Fisherman's Wharf.

JimThias
06-07-2011, 12:40 AM
Not to nitpick but...

That would be USS PAMPANITO (SS-383). SS POMPANO would be a merchie, not a fleet boat. There was a USS POMPANO (SS-181) however but she's on eternal patrol, not at Fisherman's Wharf.

Submarine geek! :lol:

;)

Freericks
06-07-2011, 03:59 AM
Submarine geek! :lol:

;)

Be very, very, very careful, Jim... calling someone a geek on a railfan site is tantamount to crossing the streams.

And as Harold Ramis has warned us, crossing the steams is bad.

viper
06-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Submarine geek! :lol:

;)


:lol: I'll take that title. Military aircraft, tanks, and warships are my forte; been studying them since I was 5. I have a bit to learn still on locomotives, you all have me easily beat there.