Burgess and Olsen

[ccaranna]

Has anyone read the latest 'Trains' about the two photograhpers that were questioned by local police, then by the railroad police about photographing trains?

Those two guys ought to be our heros for standing up for our rights and being able to safely and legitimately photograph what we enjoy.

It was unbelieveable that the police told them that it was illegal to take pictures of trains, planes, highway traffic, and who knows what else.

I guess we can thank 9/11 and the Patriot Act for this nonsense.

What's next? Having to obtain a license for taking pictures?

[Ween]

I guess we can thank 9/11 and the Patriot Act for this nonsense. I believe only one of these is the cause, and the other is a necessary evil. It is scary how vulnerable we are and have been, but the issue isn't making us more secure by defensive ways (i.e. taking nail clippers at the airport). Eliminating the threat is the only way to truly effect change. Ignoring what is out there and appeasement does not work. Ask France how that worked for them in the 1940s (Maginot line, anyone? Defenses can be defeated).

Some people who don't know any better or lack the knowledge to make sound decisions are screwing up the railfan hobby. They think they are doing good, but they're not and they don't realize it. This beefed up security and knee-jerk overreation will fade with time, and until that time comes, we're just going to have to deal with it.

We are at war, and I think it's lost on the general populace that that endeavor requires sacrifice. If you don't believe me, look at how much the American people sacrificed here in the states during WW II (air raid drills, gas rationing, etc.). Keep in mind the bigger picture and the fact that there are things out there bigger than you and taking photos of trains. With time, you'll adapt and things will get better. Just give it time...

(BTW, is anyone else sick and tired of TRAINS Don Phillips and his endless worshipping of how Europe does things and how the US has it all wrong, everytime? TRAINS needs to dump him and let him cover France...)

[Pat Lorenz]

yeah, i am really thankful for what they did. I read that to. Although i wouldnt mind having to obtain a license to take pictures, because then when the police question you, just so them the license to shut them up. I have run into numerous cops around Tucson and they always ask me what i am doing, them when i try to explain they have a puzzeled look. Although most of them just say i should be careful and stuff but others are real dick's. But if there was a license i could just flash it and be done with them. Thants my opinon.

[E3429]

Ween Wrote--
"They think they are doing good, but they're not and they don't realize it."

Exactly. We had a DT Limo driver follow us from one location all the way into town one night, claiming he called 3 different police municipalities on us because we were taking pictures from a public crossing. In his mind, I'm sure he was doing good, but did he stop to think that there might be more pressing things for police to do than ride around on a Friday night looking for two yokals with cameras? They never found us or didn't bother us, in any event, so no foul.

Knee jerk reactions are big these days. But I agree, they'll fade in time.

E

[SD70MAC]

I can relate to wait Pat said. Police harass me once in a while for just sitting by the tracks with a camera in my hand and a tripod set up. They ask me what im doing, why im doing it, dont go to close to the tracks, etc, etc. Alot of times they run the license plate to. You almost feel like saying. "Dont you have anything better to do then to harass a person with a camera and a tripod set up trackside having a good time and enjoying the day?!" Instead of harassing us railfans they should do some good and go bust a drunk driver that could kill an innocent family, or go arrest a drug dealer selling drugs to kids. The list goes on and on. Sometimes I even joke around about making a large sign and sticking it in the ground where im at and explaining what exactly im doing. I always get these looks from the general public driving by. Or maybe even make up some business cards to hand to a police officer or anyone else who wonders. Just my .02 :)

[JButler]

Being on both sides of this issue every day, I see room for improvement all around. While I don’t think railfan harassment is a big problem in my neck of the woods, I know cops who like to over interrogate people simply because they don’t share a viewpoint. On the other hand, I know railfans who think it is their God given right to be on property that is not theirs and is posted “No Trespassing.” Some, we all know them, think it is okay to take railroad property (even though it is still in use) for their collection.

Just like it only takes a few cops with bad attitudes to make you think all cops are jerks, it only takes a couple of railfans standing on the track to make cops think all railfans are stupid.

I’m with a small town PD in a small state, and thanks to 9-11, even we have received warnings and requests to watch for suspicious people and activities. I can’t imagine what the PDs in big cities have to deal with in the way of paranoia. Cops watching and questioning people in activities that are not common (sorry guys, railfanning is not really a mainstream hobby) are doing their job. If a cop asks you what you are doing, keep in mind that, yes, he does have better things to do, and, as soon as he can determine what this guy is doing next to the tracks with a camera, he can get back to doing them.

Because of their association with me, cops I work with know what they are looking at if they see someone trackside with a camera. Out of state plates may get run out of habit, but as long as you act like you have some sense and stay off the tracks, no one cares. I have talked to police officers in nearby towns and most of them really don’t pay too much attention to someone with a camera, again, as long as they are not on the tracks or doing something silly like climbing signals or poles to get a shot.

RR cops are another matter. Their primary job is to protect the interests of the company. That means keeping people away from the property so they can’t get injured and sue the company. I know a few in this area, and they are not ticket crazy. But, if they see you on RR property, regardless of if you are on the tracks, they will ask you to move on. Making them have to tell you more than once will likely be expensive.

I’m not making excuses for over zealous cops, just keep in mind, most really don’t know what you are doing or why. I don’t expect anyone to give up their rights to do what we, railfans, do, but don’t get bent out of shape if you get quizzed on what you are doing either.

[Wade H. Massie]

As JButler pointed out, there are some officers who go to extremes, and others that are nice as can be. I think a lot of it has to do with what part of the country you're in. I took a trip to Southern WV and Eastern KY last summer and had absolutely zero encounters with the police. Closer to home, I've had no problems here in Pittsburgh. On a couple of occasions I've been asked what I'm doing, to which I've replied "Photographing trains". Both times, the officers have been satisfied that I'm not a threat and have moved on without even running my license.

Unfortunately, it's a much different situation in Baltimore, MD. Here's a link to a Trainorders post about my experiences there last summer:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,785867,785867#msg-785867

If the link doesn't work, I'll cut and paste the story here.

-Wade

[Adam Parsons]

Back in early Jan we had a little issue in Spencer, NC. About 20 of us where out watching trains when NS 154 rolled by us. Not long after this he lost all air pressure and went into emergency coming down the hill at Hackett Street. His rear end was by us by at least 300 to 400 yards. The crew telephoned the local cops saying that WE had caused the air pressure to drop. The cops came by and just asked some general questions. The first cop there was a rookie and had only been on the force a couple months and thankfully he understood that we had done nothing wrong. The biggest problem of this was when another local railfan came driving up to us in a panic telling us to get out cause the cops are coming. Remember don't run away from your problems, stand up for what you know is right. The cops won't think you did anything wrong if you stay put. It turns out some local drunks at the bar about 600 yards up the road turned an angle cock. They were later caught hiding in the bushes and spent there night in jail instead of being drunk in a bar like planned.

Adam Parsons
Linwood Yard

[busyEMT]

I applaud their efforts to make a point, and I can only assume they were tactful in their meeting with police (unlike the Tased guy in a Chuck-E Cheese in CO).

The police are doing their job when they "check" out some one "hanging out by the tracks." Citizens or railroad employees call to report suspicious things, and if the police didn't investigate... well then, there is a breakdown in the system.

I can imagine out east, especially near NYC, there is a heightened sense of security. Here in the Twin Cities, I am not bothered generally. I tend to keep my camera out in the open and stay a reasonable distance from the tracks. When approached by a passer-by or officer, I don't get defensive or act like it is my God-given right to not be asked a question. There is a point where questioning can be out of line, but first impressions set the tone.

http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=903 I wrote about an encounter with a BNSF agent, where I asked about a CSX train. I got my info and he continued on his way.

[StL-rail]

I think the best part of the article was where the cop actually explains to him in detail how "'Due to heightened security, photography of trains, planes, highway traffic, and boat traffic is now illegal. You cannot do this. It's against the law,' . . ." If this is how the majority of cops mindset is, railfans are in big trouble. Luckily from my own, and others expierences, I know this is not the case, only the few 'idiot' cops (and I use the term loosely) out there, who obviously can't remember any of the lessons they had on the Constitution in school, are like this. They think they are doing the right thing, and that they're doing it "by the book", however, what they don't realize is that when they say something like taking photos is illegal and force someone to stop, that THEY are actually the ones committing the crime, because forcably depriving someone of their first amendment rights, when they do not pose a real physical threat to anyone, or anything, THAT is illegal. Okay, time for a break, wheu . . .

[cmherndon]

It seems to me that Trains Magazine has been making too big of a deal out of the whole thing (one reason I didn't renew my subscription, but that's a whole 'nother story right there.) However, telling someone that it was illegal to photograph trains is just outrageous. The First Amendment of the United States Constitution, ratified Dec 15, 1791 states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Technically, photography can be considered "the press." Sounds to me as if the two railfans ran into a Barney Fife wannabe.

Personally, I've not had many run-ins with the cops around here. The few times I've been questioned, the officers have been very professional (one of them ran my license, but since I didn't have any outstanding warrants or anything it was all cool) and never said that it was illegal to photograph trains. In Danville, I've run into the railroad police as well as the assistant terminal superintendent and both parties had no problem with me or anyone else taking photos as long as we didn't get too close or trespass on railroad property. Thank goodness I haven't run into any "Barney Fife" cops yet.

[Ween]

I was confronted by cops for taking photos of my airplane at my previous base, and when the cops showed up and told me I couldn't take pictures here and that they had to confiscate my camera, I asked them what regulation I was breaking. They didn't know. I asked, "So, if you don't know what rule I'm breaking, how can you say I'm in violation and enforce it?"

The next day I made a call to their supervisor and asked him to recite the reg to me. Basically, I couldn't take photos, they were right on that, but they had no right to take my camera. Bottom line, I got my camera back and a couple of airman got their asses chewed for not knowing the rules...

Know your rights, and don't let people walk on you...

[E.M. Bell]

Having watched these types of thread on and off, I will offer this. First, Will I give up my right to photograph from public places or just roll over and play dead to satisfy some over zealous law enforcement officer or citizen?? Hell no, if I know without a doubt that I am in the right...BUT....

Look at this way...How often does law enforcement or even the general public come in contact with someone from our hobby??...probably not as often as you might think. And you must realize that to some folks (ok..a LOT of folks) just might find it rather odd that some person would be standing by the railroad (or airport...or waterway) in the sun...the rain...at night, taking pictures. You must accept the fact that we DO live in a different world than we are used to, like it or not. While I have no intention of giving up my rights, I do and will respect a peace officer or other public offical who is simply trying to do thier job to keep the public safe. There are, and always will be, folks in positions of power (i.e..the police) that tend to make matters into their own hands, make up laws and try to throw their authority around just to scare someone they believe to be doing something wrong. As long as you know that what you are doing is in your rights as a US citzen, you will get a lot farther by approaching that situation with a little tact and courtesy instead of going on the defense...that will just makes things worse. A little respect, even towards someone that may be giving you a hard time, will go a LONG way in resloving the issue.

The vast majority of law enforcement, public or private, are decent people, and a little explaing about the hobby in a respectful manner will get you a lot further than going on the defense. They are just doing what they are paid to do, and most will let you be if you act in a rational manner. In over 15 years of seirously pursuing this hobby, I can count on one hand the number of times I have been approached about what I was doing (even after 9/11) and can honsetly say I have have never had a problem with it. If they want to check my license ect, no problem, because I have nothing to hide.

While I cant say I know all the details in the situations we have all read, I am sure that these people where detained by folks who honestly thought they where doing the right thing. Is it disturbing to read about this stuff??..sure, but I dont see it putting a damper on the hobby for those who are law abiding fans.