CN or IC? Huh?

[Ween]

I've been noticing alot of photos of CN's new C44-9Ws, but the photographers keep referring to them as "IC's newest Dash 9's!" Why?

My understanding is that IC was acquired by CN (like CSX and NS got Conrail; UP got SP, etc.), but why are assests painted in CN colors still referred to as being IC or GTW? Is IC still an independent railroad? Or is it just some habits are hard to break? You still see people refer to CR such and such when the photo was taken in 2004, but to see brand new, out of the shop CN-painted Dash 9's referred to as "IC's newest" is confusing. Any help clearing this up? Thanks...

[mojo628]

IC was acquired by CN. For a time the company was referred to as CNIC. Now it is strictly referred to as CN, though old habits are hard to break. The confusion comes because these newer C44-9W's are in CN paint but have IC stenciled on the side for the unit numbers and are referenced to as such. There have also been older IC and GTW units painted in CN colors but have kept there original RR unit number.

Even the signage at Johnston Yard adds to the confusion.

August 3, 2003
www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=17085
September 14, 2004
www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=17084

I imagine it won't be long before the tank loses the IC and gains a CN.

[Aaron]

That brings up another point, why do the new Dash 9s have IC stenciled on the unit and why do they have IC reporting marks?

[Guilford350]

Probably for the same reason why some of NS's SD60's are sublettered "SOU", even though Southern never had SD60's. I think its done for financial reasons, atleast for NS.

[Ween]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=78246

Looks like CN to me! :roll:

[wirailfan]

I would imagine that the engines are still labeled as IC due to financial and/or regulatory reasons. Although the CN bought the IC, the IC is probably a seperate company with its own set of books and operating rules.

[mojo628]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=78246

Looks like CN to me! :roll:

Well, yes and no. :twisted:

Terry Redeker has labeled the engines correctly as CN has them. The one on the left IS IC 2708 and the one on the right IS CN 2525.

Now I'm not 100% clear as to why the new units are numbered IC but I think some of it is business practices as mentioned by others on this thread.

Other confusing older CN/IC/DWP/GTW engines

CN/IC
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=78028
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=57001

Blue CN/IC
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=52672

CN/DWP
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=73601

CN/GTW
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=71017

Grey CN/GTW
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=9708

[J]

The official name of the CN family of railroads is "CN" and signage on locomotives, fuel tanks, etc. eventually will all say CN. There are a number of reasons to carry predecessor railroad identities pertaining to taxes, labor agreements or international requirements. Canadian locomotives, for example, are equipped with hot plates for cooking. US locomotives have electric side wall heaters or equipment racks back by the compressor to heat food.

Here is another example of the use of a predecessor railroad: When SP took over the former Rock Island line from Santa Rosa, NM to St. Louis, they deeded it to the SSW rather than SP. Why? Because railroad rates for through traffic are apportioned to the participating carriers. So if Conrail picked up a car in Indianapolis and delivered it to the SP lines in East St. Louis for handling to the west coast, SP would get a larger share of the revenue since both SSW and SP handled the car.

[cmherndon]

US locomotives have electric side wall heaters or equipment racks back by the compressor to heat food.


And on GE's, you can always climb up and heat it off of the stack fire! :lol:

[ryan87]

CN keeps IC, WC, DMIR, GTW, and great lakes shiping sepret subsiduaries due to taxes If it was all CN they would have to pay Canadian taxes for all there assets in Canada and the US. This way they only pay the american taxes on there US lines. Locomotives "owned" by there subsiduaries have the stencils but they wander the systym.

Ryan,
Winnipeg, Mb

[Aaron]

To better explain this for you. You have to think about the automotive industry. Pontian, Chevrolet, Olds, Cadillac, etc.... are all owned by GM, however we still refer to them as being a Chev or pontiac. Even though Canadian National Railways owns Illinois Central, they still have their own set of books and are still their own company just under the corporation umbrella of Canadian National Railways. So maybe that sheds some new light onto the greater picture!

[Ween]

I think I got it. I forgot I even posted this...a year and a half ago!

[BNSF_SD40-2B]

I've wondered this myself and couldn't figure out the reason for this "sublettering" that CN does. I wasn't a member when this topic was introduced to the forum so wasn't here to absorb the info........a special thanks to the people you explain it very well :D

[VirginiaSouthern]

Probably for the same reason why some of NS's SD60's are sublettered "SOU", even though Southern never had SD60's. I think its done for financial reasons, atleast for NS.

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the SD60s were ordered by SOU before the merger, so even though they weren't aquired until after NS was formed, they still considered them part of the Southern fleet. Hence the sublettering.

[busyEMT]

I had this same question with Soo units. I think it is the same Canadian owners of US lines situration as covered by ryan87.

Labelling my photos here, I posted a thread to solve my question. I never got an answer that satisfied me until I saw postings on a Soo Yahoo! group which linked to Surface Transportation Board bulletins. The Soo is recognized with: 'd.b.a Soo Line.'

[Frederick]

Wow, this topic is ancient history. This is the first time it's been active in 5 or 600 days.

[Ween]

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the SD60s were ordered by SOU before the merger, so even though they weren't aquired until after NS was formed, they still considered them part of the Southern fleet. Hence the sublettering.

I was always under the impression that NS subletters their units more for heritage than anything else. The ex-Conrail units are sublettered 'PRR.' Anyone else have more info...

[VirginiaSouthern]

I was always under the impression that NS subletters their units more for heritage than anything else. The ex-Conrail units are sublettered 'PRR.' Anyone else have more info...

I do believe that is the case (although now that many are being rebuilt, they are receiving NS sublettering). As far as the PRR/NYC thing, I do believe it was to keep from having two railroads using the same reporting marks (CR), so they just picked two of the biggest fallen flags that made up Conrail.

[J]

Correct. Of interest, Conrail Shared Assets remains a "railroad" in the Jersey / Philadelphia area and in Detroit. For awhile they "owned" the CR locomotives that were transferred to CSX and NS. Tax laws are an interesting thing.

SP used to be sure locomotives were "used" before being operated into Calilfornia. In the 1970's when the Trainmasters were being retired the SP bought a few GP40P-2's. The units were operated in freight service for a few months before being transferred to the penninsula service.

[Chris Wilson]

Just a note...

The IC 2700's are to be kept in the United States with the exciption of CN 2727 which was wrecked.

The CPR repaints a lot of the old SOO engines into "CP" but on the flip side, lots of cars carry SOO markings including the SOO NSC hoppers, and centerbeams.

[Traisessive]

Also with the Grey units. They are ALSTHOM units that CN has on long term lease that CN assigned to GT and the WC to replace the units they had scrapped.