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-   -   Help With Rejection (http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9416)

ns4eva 03-24-2009 11:38 AM

Help With Rejection
 
This is my first time asking for help on getting an image accepted onto the database (might be the reason I have only had 2 accepted thus far in about 5 years).

I believe the image has the potential to being an acceptable image to RP, but I will leave it to the majority to decide.

The photo got hit for "Bad Cropping". I suspect that the reason was the face of the engine is a hair to close to center, however with the location it was either have the engine there, add more sky, add more dead grass to the bottom, or cut some of the factory out on the left. You can find the image at the following URL:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=662219&key=0

Please note that I did crop out a fair bit of the image leaving me some wiggle room in the case of such a rejection (I commonly have this rejection, but usually send it straight to RRPA straight after a rejection). I can upload the original to the forum around 8pm eastern time this evening if that might help.

Background - I just recently bought a Canon Digital Rebel XSi with the 18mm-55mm kit lens (used for this photo) and also a 55mm-250mm lens. This was my first outing with the setup. I'm also using Photoshop Elements 7 for my photo preparation.

cassfan3 03-24-2009 02:09 PM

The train does need to progress farther across the scene (thus farther from center) but I think the real killer is all the dead space along the bottom of the shot. Try to get rid of some of that if you can crop in from the bottom left and still retain quality. However, looking at the shadows on the pilot, it may get canned for backlit or highsun.

JRMDC 03-24-2009 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassfan3 (Post 86225)
The train does need to progress farther across the scene (thus farther from center) but I think the real killer is all the dead space along the bottom of the shot. Try to get rid of some of that if you can crop in from the bottom left and still retain quality. However, looking at the shadows on the pilot, it may get canned for backlit or highsun.

I would not crop from bottom left as that cuts into the interesting background on the left edge, but you can crop up from the bottom with no problems, if you are at 1024 horizontal then you can do 683 vertical instead of the 730 or so that you have. I would take a smidge off the right also and then bring up the bottom a bit further.

And sharpen.

ns4eva 03-24-2009 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassfan3 (Post 86225)
The train does need to progress farther across the scene (thus farther from center)

I did take a shot of the train as it progressed, however those shots cut into the factory background that I was wanting to capture. I wanted to show a, I guess you would call it contrast (?), between the open field of dandelions and the harsh industrial complex.

ns4eva 03-24-2009 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 86226)
I would not crop from bottom left as that cuts into the interesting background on the left edge, but you can crop up from the bottom with no problems, if you are at 1024 horizontal then you can do 683 vertical instead of the 730 or so that you have. I would take a smidge off the right also and then bring up the bottom a bit further.

And sharpen.

I should be able to crop the bottom and the bit to the right to what you suggested and not have any quality loss at the RP max size limits. I will also try to sharpen it up a bit more as well and see how it looks. I did the USM 100%/0.7/0, save, resize for RP, 50%/0.3/0, save copy for RP, for this photo.

I will have to try that and any other suggestions others might add throughout the day.

Thanks for the input so far. Hopefully you guys can help this n00b get his third RP picture accepted.

MDH 03-24-2009 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassfan3 (Post 86225)
However, looking at the shadows on the pilot, it may get canned for backlit or highsun.

My experience is with that much shadow on the plow & front of the train the shot is a no-go since it's common power in a fairly common setting. Re-cropping would definitely help but I'd bet your next reject on this is the "high sun" one...

Nice idea though for the shot and with better sun and cropping that location would certainly work...

ns4eva 03-24-2009 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDH (Post 86263)
Re-cropping would definitely help but I'd bet your next reject on this is the "high sun" one...

One thing I don't get (and I have read others express this as well) is why don't the screener give you all the rejection reasons the first time around to save both the photographer time in "attempting" to save an image, and the screeners time in having to "re-reject" the photograph again for another reason. It would seem to be a win-win for both IMHO. I know, you should get it right the first time, but to someone like me that is easier said than done (worth mentioning because I know someone wanted to say that).

None the less, thank you for the feedback.

One question though, what time of day is the most problematic for getting the "High Sun" reject? I believe the image in question was taken somewhere around 3-3:30pm and headed (I maybe wrong) slightly north to the west.

MDH 03-24-2009 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns4eva (Post 86270)
why don't the screener give you all the rejection reasons the first time around.

Probably "time" i.e. they hit it with the first flaw they notice and move on...

You may have a point that it might save more time later but it could also be that it's simply easier (and less time consuming in the big picture) for them to get through it all quicker this way (even if they have to see a shot a couple times). That is to say a detailed analysis of every shot would probably take longer than dealing with the re-submissions via the current process...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns4eva (Post 86270)
One question though, what time of day is the most problematic for getting the "High Sun" reject? I believe the image in question was taken somewhere around 3-3:30pm and headed (I maybe wrong) slightly north to the west.

It's not always simple - it depends on time of year, location in the country, etc. For example, I can shoot all day long in January in Ohio but by April or so mid morning until mid to later afternoon is going to be "high sun". It also can depend on the subject matter, angle, composition, etc. as to how much it impacts the photo. For a basic wedgie shot of common power it's a killer. Small train in a big landscape with intersting power, good angle & composition - might not matter at all. Best way to get a sense is to browse accepted shots to see what works. Focus on basic shots first and try to replicate that. Then as you get a better understanding you figure out how/where you can "push the envelope"...

ns4eva 03-24-2009 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDH (Post 86289)
It's not always simple - it depends on time of year, location in the country, etc. For example, I can shoot all day long in January in Ohio but by April or so mid morning until mid to later afternoon is going to be "high sun". It also can depend on the subject matter, angle, composition, etc. as to how much it impacts the photo. For a basic wedgie shot of common power it's a killer. Small train in a big landscape with intersting power, good angle & composition - might not matter at all. Best way to get a sense is to browse accepted shots to see what works. Focus on basic shots first and try to replicate that. Then as you get a better understanding you figure out how/where you can "push the envelope"...

Thank you once again for the reply. I'll go looking for some photographs on RP from around this are and take detailed looks at the shots and examine the EXIF data (if available) and study up for my next outing.

ns4eva 03-24-2009 11:57 PM

Done the suggested crop and done a little more sharpening to the image however it got rejected once again. I take these rejections as a hang up the towel on this attempt?

- Horizon Unlevel (Makes no sense when looking at the tops of the building as being level)
- Poor lighting (Was prepared for this to be a possible rejection)
- Composition/Balance (Not sure what they want with this)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=662554&key=0

I guess I'm just wondering what you think the exact reason those were picked for, besides the poor lighting.

JRMDC 03-25-2009 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns4eva (Post 86315)
Done the suggested crop and done a little more sharpening to the image however it got rejected once again. I take these rejections as a hang up the towel on this attempt?

- Horizon Unlevel (Makes no sense when looking at the tops of the building as being level)
- Poor lighting (Was prepared for this to be a possible rejection)
- Composition/Balance (Not sure what they want with this)

unlevel - never level on buildings at the edge of a shot - level on things in the center - I find it useful to "level" on vertical lines, as horizontal lines need not be horizontal for perspective reasons but verticals pretty much need to be vertical

composition - waaaay too much boring foreground, more sky instead

light - well, a problem, RP doesn't like noses in shadow, but if you had a nice composition you would have a chance, i think, maybe not a strong one but a decent one

I guess I'm just wondering what you think the exact reason those were picked for, besides the poor lighting.

MDH 03-25-2009 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns4eva (Post 86315)
Done the suggested crop and done a little more sharpening to the image however it got rejected once again. I take these rejections as a hang up the towel on this attempt?

- Horizon Unlevel (Makes no sense when looking at the tops of the building as being level)
- Poor lighting (Was prepared for this to be a possible rejection)
- Composition/Balance (Not sure what they want with this)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=662554&key=0

I guess I'm just wondering what you think the exact reason those were picked for, besides the poor lighting.

JRMDC's already noted this but I'd just further add that the "unlevel" and "comp/balance" are potentially "fixable" but the poor lighting isn't. Keep in mind the screeners also read the forums so maybe it's a hint of the various issues and/or a suggestion to let it go. For levelling, I'd go off that not-quite-vertical smoke stack and for balance crop some off the left & bottom (yeah, you lose the industry you're trying to show but the train wasn't far enough along to make that work). However, that's a moot point due to the poor lighting which will preclude this shot from working. It's a nice shot for your own collection but won't make it here. The lesson though is that it's not far off - you could get a nice shot at that location and have it accepted here but you need better light on the nose (assuming time of day, sun angle and trains will cooperate!) Good luck in the future, but let this particular one go.

Regards,
Michael

ns4eva 03-25-2009 03:00 AM

Thanks to the help of you all I found a photo from that day of photography that seemed to fit what you all have been trying to explain to me about mistakes on the picture in question. I done about an hour or so of tweaking and actually got a photo accepted :-) .

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=277281 (wasn't sure how to do the thumbnail as most do on the forums)

Just wanted to thank you all for the tips. Hopefully one day I will be a regular submitter like most on here as I continue to better my photography.

MDH 03-25-2009 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns4eva (Post 86381)
Thanks to the help of you all I found a photo from that day of photography that seemed to fit what you all have been trying to explain to me about mistakes on the picture in question. I done about an hour or so of tweaking and actually got a photo accepted :-) .

Good job! Nice shot:

[photoid=277281]

And by the way to get that to show you type [photoid=XXXXXX] where the X's are the number of the accepted shot (277281 in this case)

Keep trying and asking for help & you'll get more!

Good luck,
Michael

Chase55671 03-25-2009 03:19 AM

Good catch! Glad to see you were able to get another image accepted.

Chase

ns4eva 03-25-2009 11:27 AM

Thank you much Sir's. :)

I'm just curious, why did my EXIF data not carry over with my image? Was it possibly lost while editing in Photoshop Elements 7? Thanks in advance.


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