West coast = easy to capture impressive scenes. I'm not shocked at that number, and I bet there's plenty of other areas on the West side with as many or more SCs. It's like shooting fish in a barrel...or trains out West. :D

Loyd L.

Agreed. I have a dozen or so shots I want to capture here on the CW but with one train a day, factor in all the RP do's and dont's, sun and the weather, there's not much opportunity to get "the perfect shot" let alone hope for a screeners choice. (I still shoot when I can though, just for the practice)

You are all jealous.
Look at what I have found: 5 pictures of the same location, with same light, same photographer = a total of 5 screener choices and 1 photo of the week = 6 RPNet prizes (only one people's choice though!). Isn't that fully justified?

To make a fair comparison, let's take another exceptionnally scenic place, Switzerland (oops! this is not in the USA! ... but if the RPNet team is fair, that doesn't matter). So, Switzerland has 15036 pictures in the database, is a truly scenic railroad place - nobody will discuss that -, and has a total of 25 SC and POTW. Relative to 15036 pictures that is a ratio of 1.66 per thousand.

Now Montana where Lombard Canyon is located has "only" 5883 pictures in the database, and 106 SC+POTW prizes. That is a ratio of 18.02 per thousand. No pro-USA bias, I can assure you. Just a matter of jealousy.

You could do again the same calculations for many other truly scenic places of the World, like the Andes, with about the same results. No, there is no screener preference, no bias at all. As Donald would say: this is all fake news!

No bias at all!

I have made the effort of doing calculations for the entire database. Here are some factual results (oops ... Sorry, I should say "here are some fake news"):

- USA: 494,519 pictures in the Railpictures database (as of June 2 2020) ==> 1758 SC+POTW ==> 3.56 prizes per thousand pictures
- Canada: 47,626 pictures; 154 SC+POTW ==> 3.23 prizes per thousand pictures
- Rest of the World: 132,327 pictures; 243 SC+POTW ==> 1.84 prizes per thousand pictures.

USA = 1.94 times better than rest of the world
Canada = 1.76 times better than rest of the world

You know what? American & Canadian photographers are undoubtedly the best in the World! You should truly be proud.

And also, US & Canada has the most scenic railroad places in the World!

I have no further comments Your Honour

The numbers are not surprising, I think. But I am just guessing, cuz I haven't done the research, that the US probably also dominates the hit-count on the site.....which may at least help explain some of the perceived bias. ;)

Mike is good guy and provides a lot of great stuff. I can't believe how he gets around and where, not like he just shoots off the bridge at Winslow, so I have no problem.

My problem is look at current SC and photo of the week. I know Lloyd disagrees(best should be there) but this becomes a self fulfilling process. The three are all great but "is that all there is."

I am interested that there are so few photos from Mexico(413 total). I have a bunch from 73 and 94. Got a few in and then rejections CH-P(lots of those right), so I get the message, move on, end of that. Not going to fight a losing battle that relatively rare subject I shot in Mexico in 73 is not perfect.

We see here is what people learn gets accepted and what gets awards.

Bob

I wasn’t going to respond to recent posts in this thread since they refer to my photos. But…

I have always enjoyed railroads in scenic settings for my photography, but everyone has different tastes. Because the Class I railroads today are so large, and many locomotive fleets are very homogenous, to me, scenery and a scenic location is more important than ever for a good photograph.

Loyd’s surely tongue-in-cheek remark about doing western railroad photography is “like shooting fish in a barrel” is not really true… or fair. There a lot of lines in the west that see very few trains and it can require a fair amount of time and effort to get good light and a train at the right time and place. Union Pacific’s Moffat Tunnel Subdivision gets a lot of SC awards, but train counts today can be 4-5 trains per 24 hours, with counts as low as 2, both being Amtrak’s California Zephyr! Getting good photos of trains on this line is challenging and definitely not “like shooting fish in a barrel.”

J-M Frybourg illustrated one of his points with five of my photos of Sheep Canyon on BNSF’s Casper Sub in Wyoming. Photos at this place requires 4WD and/or hiking to do any photography. And you’d be lucky to photograph three trains in daylight on a long June day, with two of them a local. “Shooting fish in a barrel,” I think not.

Mr. Frybourg also compares the inequities of U.S. and Canada photos in SC and POTW awards compared to the rest of the world. Yes, there is a U.S. bias, but the RailPictures is a U.S.-based website! If a similar railroad photo website was located in Switzerland or Germany, or somewhere else, I would NOT expect U.S. photography to have majority of the SC or POTW images.

I appreciate the “awards” like SC, POTW and PC that my photos get on this website. But what I really enjoy is sharing my photos with everyone here, maybe showing them a new location, or a different way of looking at a familiar place, or perhaps presenting a railroad or locomotive that doesn’t exist anymore. I think that no matter where railroad photography is done, it could be a challenge and some work, but hopefully in the end, the results are something worth sharing.

Mike Danneman

I'm wanting to return to a time when you could incite a lively EARP vs WARP firefight on obscar with the mere mention of an advantage to either side in regards to scenery or effort. The truth is.. trains suck and I have no idea why anyone fools with them... :D

Loyd L.

Well yeah because we have Burkholder.. duh :D

Loyd L.

Hi Mike, I do sincerely appreciate your photos a lot, they are truly great, no doubt at all about that. I even wish I could visit some of these great locations together with you one day!

My comments were certainly not directed at your work. I was just taking one example (apologies if it fell on your work) to illustrate what the RP.net team does not want to recognize:
- Despite what the site claims, this is not a truly worldwide repository of "the best RR pictures on the net". There is a long way to go, and many changes to do, before RP.net is fully aligned with the claim. This is not impossible; it can be done. But the objective deserves more open mindedness, "inclusiveness", and dialogue with non-US stakeholders.
- There is a real North American bias, with subsequent inequities. Part of the solution lies in incorporating non-US people in the RP.net team, including non-US screeners. This is what worldwide aviation pictures web sites are successful doing. They are truly international in nature, to a degree far beyond RP.net.

The benefits would be great, reducing frustrations for non-US contributors, and attracting more of them, hence making RP.net a true worldwide reference, growing the audience, etc. Difficult to understand why the RP.net team does not take this route.

My motivations are positive: the growth potential for RP.net is big. Beyond the frustrations generated, today's limitations are a barrier to growing internationally.

PS: Note that I have already suggested incorporating non-US screeners in the past.

Mike,

I enjoy seeing your shots, and appreciate the effort that you put into finding locations (I still haven't figured out how you get to those locations between Plainview and Crescent). You have shown me quite a few locations that i have visited or intend to visit as a result.

With regard to JMF's repeated whining about the pro-American bias, you hit the nail on the head. By and large, the majority of American railfans don't have an interest in unfamiliar-looking trains like most of those in Europe, and I agree that most RP viewers are North American. I have posted a few foreign photos here, and they usually tank on views.

Jean-Marc should look at his own success rate at RP. Of his twelve SC's, two are from Iran and one is from France. The other nine are all taken in the western hemisphere, where trains look like those the US and Canada. It's not a persecution of foreign photographers, rather a preference for railroads that look and feel like those in the U.S.

Doug, basically, what you say is: this site is America - "majority" -, let’s keep it American, the rest is negligible (i.e. minority) and does not matter so much to the majority.

The problem is, the non-US audience, contributors, and number of pictures has grown in proportion, and the declared ambition “best on the net” is international.
I have calculated some other statistics in the past, that showed that the proportion of non-US pictures was steadily and significantly growing over the years.

So, there are 2 paths forward from here: either keep it American, or truly grow internationally. The America-only (or “America first”) version can’t satisfy non-US stakeholders in the long term (contributors, audience). And it will probably be without me.

The success of global aviation pictures web sites shows that the international route is a truly successful one.

Jean-Marc,

I appreciate the nice comments about my photography! Please note that I did not take your remarks personally. When you used my five Sheep Canyon photos in your example, you reminded me that even with a mountain backdrop, a lot of “western photography” is not “like shooting fish in a barrel,” since the trains can be scarce and waits can be long. One of those photos (Photo ID 624446) was the only train I photographed that day!

Mike Danneman

P.S. Glad you enjoy my photos too, Doug!

Thanks Mike

I have also visited the Casper sub in the past - I have a few pictures posted here -, and I was surprised by the low traffic. The landscapes are so strikingly beautiful that not to be able to capture them all with a train is frustrating, and makes time look long waiting for trains.

You realize that the feller with his hand on the steering wheel here, is the same feller that started and owned the worlds largest aviation photography website right? It's extremely content heavy in the international department.

Loyd L.

I hope you're only playing along ala obscar and not taking any offense. There's plenty of difficult shots throughout the US and I was only being moderately silly as I usually am here.

I would trade you 2 trains a day on the Moffat for 7 trains a day here at home on the Alleghany.. :D

Loyd L.

And I'll trade all my Metra trains.... Oops we don't have that many any more.

Bob

I'll take the Metra trains if you throw in the Racetrack and Oberweis in Western Springs.

Loyd L.

Yes, I know that.
And after some years, he sold the website.
Now it is owned by other people. When you see how it is handled, the nationality of the screeners, the huge international contributions, etc., (and also the interesting evolution of the front page, site design, etc.), it should set and example for today's RP.net that remains quite unchanged. In fact there are 2 competing web sites in about the same category, worldwide aviation picture databases. Perhaps the competition is doing them good?

I've always been a bit bitter over all the excellent continuation of improvements there, while rp.net just exists. There's been plenty of people threaten to start a completing website for the choos choos, but here we are lol

Loyd L.

Some additional interesting statistics for the debate, showing the difference between screener decisions (SC+POTW) and the site audience (People's choice).

The people are a bit more balanced: knowing that the database contains 80.4% of North-American pictures the people give "only" 84% of their prizes to North American pictures, when screeners give them 89% of their SC and POTW.

Just doing a quick look it appears around 75 percent of the site traffic is from the US.

Loyd L.

Jean-Marc, I hope that you don't think that I am some sort of nationalist promoting an America-first agenda. I have never been against an international presence on RP, but I am merely stating an objective view of why the non-US photos don't do well here.

Your comparison between aircraft and railroad photography is not completely valid. Before the pandemic, my job had me flying into Chicago's O'Hare airport two to three times a month for well over two years. Most times, I would see quite a few aircraft owned by and painted for non-US airlines. Foreign aircraft were, and will again be, a daily presence in the US and familiar to US photographers.

On the other hand, other than a few unsuccessful attempts to break into the US locomotive market by Krauss-Maffei and Faur, and the North American tour of the Flying Scotsman in the 1960's, I can't think of any off-continent trains that have run on interchange railroads in the US since daguerreotypes were the standard of photography.

Human nature is to be comfortable with the familiar, and my point was that the majority of RP viewers, which number many more than the the photographers, will be attracted to familiar trains. Photo clicks drive generate more ad revenue, and like it or not, the majority of viewers are still from the US.

I do not know the business model for RP, but clearly a lot of income comes from advertising. I know that a lot of the ads are targeted, as a Google search one day brings many related ads on RP the next day. It would be interesting to know if target ads abroad come from local firms or from US ones, and whether RP gets revenue from foreign advertisers.

While you have an idea of how RP should function, the bottom line is that it's a business, and your wishes may not fit its business plan.

That made me laugh out loud. 😄

Jean-Marc - lots of impressive statistics proving what seems to be an undisputed point. There IS a bias here, no doubt. It's an "American" site flooded with American pictures viewed by a mostly American audience.

As stated by others, people tend to like what they are familiar with. This is why "TRAINS" is big in the US, but perhaps not so much in Europe, while European periodicals are big in Europe, but hard to find here in North America.

Despite this - Europeans that might not otherwise have had an audience in North America do, and most (some more than others)) are eternally grateful! Your pics are among the best on the site, as are Georg Trub's, Brian Stephenson's, Ilya Semenoff's, Phil Cotterill's and a handful of others - not to mention past patrons like Alan Crotty, Michael Rhoades, and Bob Avery.

Patrons foreign to America on RP are as impressive to me as American's appearing in foreign magazines - and vice-versa. I've seen your pics in TRAINS - impressive. I've had pics in a few foreign magazines. I don't have an issue with those periodicals being biased with European pics, lol. I find it all the more impressive when foreigners make the occasional hop. Hopefully, you have not yet tired of seeing Kevin Madore's pics in Europe, lol.

I DO agree, RP should find a way to encourage more European patrons (and stop the sad migration of those who have left). A foreign screener sounds like and excellent idea - you should add it to my "Admin Suggestions" list in the RP Site Related Forum. Removing the linked views from total views or limiting "Top of the Last 24 Hours" to an hour would no doubt increase exposure for many, including foreign submissions.

As for SC's - well, an SC is simply a screener 'favorite". I've never been a fan of highlighting the work of one person based on the opinion of a single person. I've advocated replacing the SC with highlighting based in the skill /or luck of a fantastic image - whether the screener likes it or not. This is basically what the POTW is, but why limit such photos to once a week? Side note here - bet there were a lot more foreign SC's before the likes of those mentioned above fled.

As for the "fish in the barrel" in the West - the West does offer some spectacular views (as if the Appalachians don't, lol), but here in my neck of the woods - Philadelphia, there are people capturing phenomenal photographs. Shoot what you got, lol - there are more than mountains and rivers to capture one's attention. Ever see Dennis Livesey's stuff? Eric Williams? Mitch Go... err, I mean, Andrew Blaszczyk's stuff, Sam Phillip's stuff... Jean-Marc's stuff?!?! Doug, your stuff, as well as pics from Bob Kise, Nate and Tom Nelligan are also fantastic. Hey Mike, it goes without saying your pics are fantastic - stay west of the Mississippi, lol! Kidding, would love to see your interpretation of the Northeast - you are welcome back anytime!

/Mitch

Well I argued for some variety in SC, didn't know I had this much pull. Still shooting fish in a barrel area, Chalk another one up for Lloyd. Wonder if the crew is waving back. Fire is ..

[photoid=738316]

Bob

I really appreciated the creativity here. Solid work on the exposure balance and composition. It might not have gotten the SC had the person's hand been blurry, but that put it over the top IMO.

Back in the day I think subjects had to hold their pose for a time. Just to be a ?????, obvious time exposure with train, and fire, not sure some arm and hand motion would be objectionable to me but then it could have crept further.

There is this show and group called Beecherfest, I can't help but thinking of waving with a bottle of local brew in his hand.

Bob

Lets face it, RP prefers pretty over gritty. Mitch is right in that there is a lot of noteworthy photos taken east of the Mississippi, along with some older stuff that never gets its' due. I could hike in to take an obscure bridge shot on a Midwestern branch line that sees 1 train a week and still not stand a chance against a pretty mountain overview where I have to squint to see the train. I guess that's just the way it is.....

I definitely agree. There's tons of shots anywhere that require a lot of effort to get whether that be by hiking/4x4, lack of trains on a line, weather, etc. but I don't think that "effort spent" should be a determining factor in whether a shot is good or not, let the photo stand on it's own merit as a final product.

Not to say that a good story can't make a photo more interesting, but from a technical/photography perspective, I don't think it has a place in the criteria for judgement.

I wish effort equaled more success. Maybe then all those hours I spent on a rock in the New River, or standing inches from death on a cliff, or hiking miles and miles uphill both ways would have made me rich by now. :D

I also wish that access here was more like Cajon Pass. Drive anywhere you want along the ROW and walk 20 feet to take a nice shot.

Loyd L.

I'm glad it's not. As you have said in the past, most foamers are lazy, and will only shoot the low-hanging fruit. If at was all that easy, our results would look like everyone else's.

I'm lazier now though Doug. :D

Loyd L.

It does on RP! Just post any old shot and then link it to 50,000 Facebook pages - voila! Top of the last 24, Top of last week - maybe even a PC, but at the very least, 8,000 people will see your shot.

I long ago suggested RP consider highlighting "hard to capture" images regardless of whether they personally "like" them or not - aka: "Screener's Choice".


I thought long ago, I was "done" photographing Amtrak on the NEC. A young and talented guy named Michael Pearson (via Facebook) proved me wrong. Granted, he sometimes delves into the psychodelic world if HDR meaning he can shoot on the dark side / wrong side and still get a nice bright "sunny" shot. Helps that he has a Nikon, too! But tone some of the HDR's down, and new worlds emerge. There are others - too bad they don't post there non-HDR stuff here. Now add the likes of George Hiotis, Eric Williams, and such. Then there's Matthew Malkiewicz - showed me a self published book featuring just one location in NYC shot in B&W of abandoned tracks over the span of one year. I told him I'd give him a hundred bucks for the book! Shame he didn't publish any (yet) to sell!

So - maybe you shouldn't be looking for low hanging fruit and instead, try to figure out how to shoot the leaves!

/Mitch

I spent years shooting the roots but now the desire isn't what it used to be (locally at least). I will still bust my butt when I'm traveling to get more unique photography, but considering how motive power and line side scenery have changed, there isn't too many spots within 150 miles that I could go today and get a better result than I already have. So I'll grab that low fruit or simply hang out with friends and wave when a train goes by.

Now if you have some encouraging words that will motivate me to start editing more of my older stuff and update my website (or here), I'm all ears. :D

Loyd L.

Well, this is interesting.....

[photoid=739425]

The latest submission from one of the more prolific linkers currently has like 7,000 views, and is at the top when you click the link for "Most Popular - Last 24 hrs", but it does not show on the home page. At the very least, it appears as if this photographer is no longer able to utilize the heavy linking campaign to force his photos to To24. Not sure if that's a blanket change for everybody, or if it is selective. I have noticed that there are several others who have typically done this sort of thing in the past who now appear to have a similar limitation. The views still pile up, but the photos don't make the home page. At the very least, it appears as if Admin is making the effort to address the habitual abuse situations.

Thank you, Admin!! :-)

It's nice to have a level playing field. Thanks, Admin!

I hope it's true. A big thanks is in order if so.

Loyd L.

Well now, I wouldn't say level... the tilt is not as drastic which is welcome.

Still like the idea of limiting images to 1 hour in the "Top of Last 24 Hours".

Everyone can link away - "earn" that hour by campaigning but free it up for those that can earn the spot on quality alone. Gets those Darwin's, derails and Larry's Salvage off the front page quicker, too. With no "penalties", but the 1 hour limit, I would love to see work from Georg Trub return to the front page - links or not, it's great photography that should be highlit. Also, I'd have to imagine it is rather discouraging to some patrons whose photography merits the visibility. No need to further discourage the best of the best from posting.

/Mitch

Making everybody play by the same rules is a huge improvement, and level enough to get Jim Thias' approval.

I don't like that idea at all. TO24 is a rolling window and should remain as is. Anyone's given hour in your scheme could come up at 3AM, making the recognition pointless.