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Mgoldman 06-17-2020 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decapod401 (Post 196732)
Making everybody play by the same rules is a huge improvement, and level enough to get Jim Thias' approval.

Everyone is not playing by the same rules though - unless you believe, what, only 3 photographers were heavily linking images. There are dozens of others that link and campaign though reaching the "Top of the Last 24 Hours" for the less prolific often takes a good 10 hours or so, vs 3 or 4 hours for the banned abusers - one of which still has free reign but is limited to "only" one pic - not quite fair to the others which are banned from TofL24 altogether. And you still have the Darwins, derails, salvage operations.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Decapod401 (Post 196732)
I don't like that idea at all. TO24 is a rolling window and should remain as is. Anyone's given hour in your scheme could come up at 3AM, making the recognition pointless.

Interesting observation - didn't think about that, but in all likely-hood, at least you'd come up at 3AM vs not coming up at all. If you don't "come up" until 3 am, its likely the person or persons that are preventing you from appearing would be the same ones preventing you from appearing at all in the first place. So instead of a shot appearing for 6 hours, it would appear for 1 hour before being replaced by another, and another and 3 others, an hour later at a time. So 5 other photographers get to hit the front page instead of the original poster for all 6. And you no longer run into the frustrating situation where you find your post accepted at the same time as someone who links, or posts Darwin's, derailments and salvage shots (or nostalgia ;) ).

/Mitch

Joseph Cermak 06-17-2020 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 196728)
Well, this is interesting.....


The latest submission from one of the more prolific linkers currently has like 7,000 views, and is at the top when you click the link for "Most Popular - Last 24 hrs", but it does not show on the home page. At the very least, it appears as if this photographer is no longer able to utilize the heavy linking campaign to force his photos to To24. Not sure if that's a blanket change for everybody, or if it is selective. I have noticed that there are several others who have typically done this sort of thing in the past who now appear to have a similar limitation. The views still pile up, but the photos don't make the home page. At the very least, it appears as if Admin is making the effort to address the habitual abuse situations.

Thank you, Admin!! :-)

Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I'm not sure this is the case. I looked as soon as I saw this forum post (sorry for the delay in this response) and it looked like you might have just caught it at the right time due to the different timings used by the homepage TO24 and the image list sorting by most viewed last 24. When I looked, the shot in question was not on the homepage nor showing as a shot posted in the last 24 hours in the list view, but did show as number 2 for past 48 hours both on the homepage and the list. Perhaps an admin will confirm a change, but my initial guess is you just caught it at the right time between refreshes.

KevinM 06-17-2020 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Cermak (Post 196734)
Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I'm not sure this is the case. I looked as soon as I saw this forum post (sorry for the delay in this response) and it looked like you might have just caught it at the right time due to the different timings used by the homepage TO24 and the image list sorting by most viewed last 24. When I looked, the shot in question was not on the homepage nor showing as a shot posted in the last 24 hours in the list view, but did show as number 2 for past 48 hours both on the homepage and the list. Perhaps an admin will confirm a change, but my initial guess is you just caught it at the right time between refreshes.

I'm pretty sure of what I reported. When I looked, the Schauer photo had 7,000+ views and showed at the top of the stack (by a decent margin of views) when I clicked the link, but it was not on the home page, and never made the home page after I started looking at it. I had an image up there at the time, which was the reason I looked in the first place. When I saw the Schauer image, I didn't think mine had a chance, but I was pleasantly surprised. I know for fact that Admin has indeed limited some contributors. They said so publicly right here on the forums. Georg Trub had an image that was right up there in view-count in the same timeframe as the Schauer picture, but it also never appeared on the home page. As Mitch reports, I think that KB is now restricted to one image in To24, so he can't grab all 4 slots by posting and linking 4 images.

Again, I don't know if this imposed across the board. I suspect that it is only focused on people who have been abusing the linking campaigns.

Decapod401 06-18-2020 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgoldman (Post 196733)
Everyone is not playing by the same rules though - unless you believe, what, only 3 photographers were heavily linking images. There are dozens of others that link and campaign though reaching the "Top of the Last 24 Hours" for the less prolific often takes a good 10 hours or so, vs 3 or 4 hours for the banned abusers - one of which still has free reign but is limited to "only" one pic - not quite fair to the others which are banned from TofL24 altogether. And you still have the Darwins, derails, salvage operations.

I disagree with your assessment of the current situation. It looks to me like the linked views have been divorced from the "organic" views for TO24 purposes for everyone. The free reign photographer's view counts are down from where they've been, and I suspect that admin also imposed the one submission/person in TO24 at any given time. As far as the derailments and such, if the organic viewers find an accepted shot compelling enough to click on it more than something that you or I like better, who are we to dispute it? You're trying to impose subjective views on what should be allowed, and that is not a level playing field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgoldman (Post 196733)
Interesting observation - didn't think about that, but in all likely-hood, at least you'd come up at 3AM vs not coming up at all. If you don't "come up" until 3 am, its likely the person or persons that are preventing you from appearing would be the same ones preventing you from appearing at all in the first place. So instead of a shot appearing for 6 hours, it would appear for 1 hour before being replaced by another, and another and 3 others, an hour later at a time. So 5 other photographers get to hit the front page instead of the original poster for all 6. And you no longer run into the frustrating situation where you find your post accepted at the same time as someone who links, or posts Darwin's, derailments and salvage shots (or nostalgia ;) ).

/Mitch

So you want to give out participation awards? If a shot is compelling enough to organically go to the top in a few hours, for whatever reason, it deserves to be there for the rest of the 24 hour period.

Mgoldman 06-18-2020 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decapod401 (Post 196736)
I disagree with your assessment of the current situation. It looks to me like the linked views have been divorced from the "organic" views for TO24 purposes for everyone. The free reign photographer's view counts are down from where they've been, and I suspect that admin also imposed the one submission/person in TO24 at any given time. As far as the derailments and such, if the organic viewers find an accepted shot compelling enough to click on it more than something that you or I like better, who are we to dispute it? You're trying to impose subjective views on what should be allowed, and that is not a level playing field.

I'm really surprised you take this view, Doug.

You suggest now that admin has removed Top of Last 24 privileges to four whole people, (though Kevin B can still get one in every time) and the problem's been solved, despite that others, though not as prolific, still do the same. It's a step in the right direction, but if you scroll the pics on any given day, you'll see an average - some lower, some higher, yet STILL those that are significantly higher in views DESPITE quality, or if quality, they still manage overtake other more appealing images - personal taste factors in, of course, but favorites and commenting often suggest more appealing images are being buried (aka, hidden /less viewed) under better campaigned images. I always (had) liked the fact that unlike the periodicals, on RP, it was not who you knew, or how hard you brown nosed and campaigned, but rather, the quality of your photo that got your images seen.

(Incidentally, I'd have no issue with Erik Lindgren occupying the Top of the Last 24 - 24/7 - I think images like his are fantastic. But when often generic shots overtake such shots considerably faster than pics the likes of his, it's frustrating not only to long time patrons, but new patrons still getting a feel for the site.)




Quote:

Originally Posted by Decapod401 (Post 196736)
So you want to give out participation awards? If a shot is compelling enough to organically go to the top in a few hours, for whatever reason, it deserves to be there for the rest of the 24 hour period.

No - when /where did I even come close to suggesting a participation award? I am simply suggesting getting away from the train magazine practice where it's always a small circle of photographers that regularly get featured most prominently - regardless of the appeal of their photos. I like a little variety. I have no qualms sharing the front page with other great photographers that would otherwise be unseen at Top 5th pic of the Last 24. Last thing I'd like to see on RP are more photographers leaving or not joining because they can't break into the circle - at least, not without significant link whoring or prolific linking.

Incidentally - As much as I really enjoy your pics, I sense some possible bias in that you personally might lose some front page time which after hours on the front page, you might forfeit some time later at #1 to allow some other photographers a little spotlighting. I think many here get a little frustrated when they see their pic - perhaps one they really want seen, happens to post along with someone's derailment series. Or Darwins... Larry's Trucks, Ect.

/Mitch

And the alternate option to simply disconnect linked views still has many pluses. Last thing I want to do is make having my images seen a job. Leave the campaigning to the politicians. Their ideas often similarly unappealing rise to the top as well. F8 and campaign it, the new slogan for the modern photographer.

Decapod401 06-18-2020 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgoldman (Post 196737)
I'm really surprised you take this view, Doug.

You suggest now that admin has removed Top of Last 24 privileges to four whole people, (though Kevin B can still get one in every time) and the problem's been solved, despite that others, though not as prolific, still do the same. It's a step in the right direction, but if you scroll the pics on any given day, you'll see an average - some lower, some higher, yet STILL those that are significantly higher in views DESPITE quality, or if quality, they still manage overtake other more appealing images - personal taste factors in, of course, but favorites and commenting often suggest more appealing images are being buried (aka, hidden /less viewed) under better campaigned images. I always (had) liked the fact that unlike the periodicals, on RP, it was not who you knew, or how hard you brown nosed and campaigned, but rather, the quality of your photo that got your images seen.

(Incidentally, I'd have no issue with Erik Lindgren occupying the Top of the Last 24 - 24/7 - I think images like his are fantastic. But when often generic shots overtake such shots considerably faster than pics the likes of his, it's frustrating not only to long time patrons, but new patrons still getting a feel for the site.)

If only four photographers have been throttled by the new restrictions, then my thinking is incorrect. My belief is that these are global changes, and not targeted. I have not noticed any out-of-place images since Kevin posted his observations. If you have evidence that others are still linking successfully, let's have it. I will also say that I have had very little time to pay much attention in the past week due to personal commitments, so I may well have missed something.

WRT Erik, he and I have followed each other on Flickr for several years, and we met a couple of years ago. He is a great guy, and puts a lot of effort into finding unique light, yielding incredible results.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgoldman (Post 196737)
No - when /where did I even come close to suggesting a participation award? I am simply suggesting getting away from the train magazine practice where it's always a small circle of photographers that regularly get featured most prominently - regardless of the appeal of their photos. I like a little variety. I have no qualms sharing the front page with other great photographers that would otherwise be unseen at Top 5th pic of the Last 24. Last thing I'd like to see on RP are more photographers leaving or not joining because they can't break into the circle - at least, not without significant link whoring or prolific linking.

Incidentally - As much as I really enjoy your pics, I sense some possible bias in that you personally might lose some front page time which after hours on the front page, you might forfeit some time later at #1 to allow some other photographers a little spotlighting. I think many here get a little frustrated when they see their pic - perhaps one they really want seen, happens to post along with someone's derailment series. Or Darwins... Larry's Trucks, Ect.

I don't think that success on RP has anything to do with knowing somebody in the "circle" - I sure don't. Before coming here, very few people knew who I was, and I maintained a relatively low profile. After 20 years of only shooting as many rolls of film in a year as I used to shoot on a ten-day vacation, I just wanted to see if my stuff stood the test of time. Other than some banter here on the forums, I still do not have any "presence" here other than one or two postings most days. I'm pretty sure that Erik didn't arrive here because he was part of the "circle", and he certainly has flourished.

I also think you overestimate the amount of front page time I would lose. A lot of my stuff doesn't see the top 4, and my post yesterday is the only one to go to number one in some time. I'm quite content to see other's work in those spots, if they haven't been campaigned. As a matter of fact, I would be just fine seeing the top ten of the past 24 hours on the front page without some convoluted rolling formula to throw some photos out to get more exposure for others. That seems like a simpler and better solution to the concern about exposure for all that you have.

Mgoldman 06-18-2020 06:27 AM

It is targeted - one, by one, hitting just four recently. As I noted - there are still others, just not to the same extreme - some campaigning, others simply prolific in sharing. I'm not looking to call any one specific person out - they may simply find it easier to post a link than the photo and a rewritten caption, though a swift ride to the front page is no doubt a well known perk when linking. Funny how no one links after the first 24 hours...

As for "knowing somebody in the circle" - that was not to be taken literally, rather, it was an analogy. You'll note a relatively exclusive circle of folks featured routinely in TRAINS and Railfan. The same started to happen on RP. It was not who you knew in the magazine, it was who you knew via links. In other words, it was no longer about good pictures.

When I first started posting to RP - I loved the fact there were no politics, no campaigning, no brown-nosing - it was all about the photo. You didn't have to "know" someone, you didn't have to "sell" your shot nor work to promote it. You just put it out there and let it speak for itself. The one hour idea was simply a way to promote linking to appease Admin ($$) yet allow everyone else with good photos an opportunity at the front page - without counter link whoring. I solicit images here and there to the periodicals, but for RP, just not interested in becoming an employee. It takes me long enough to write an informative caption! It's supposed to be fun, right? RP gets views, its patron's get seen. And it sucks when your best stuff does not get seen because there's a big random derailment (or link campaign) blocking the view the day you just happened to upload your best.

/Mitch

Joe the Photog 06-18-2020 04:39 PM

Doug,

You're fine. Just keep unloading L&C and other shots from the southeast!

Grewup on the CW 06-18-2020 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgoldman (Post 196739)
.... And it sucks when your best stuff does not get seen because there's a big random derailment (or link campaign) blocking the view the day you just happened to upload your best.

/Mitch

While derailments/wrecks are not "Pretty", it is still a part of railroading and worthy of documenting and sharing, especially if its personal (involves a family member). Those shots usually garner a lot of views simply because they just dont happen everyday. One of my top shots was of a local wreck and it gained a lot of views and no linking was done as I only post here on RP and RPA. I have no other social accounts. The solution is simple, kill all linked views towards the count and let the picture speak for itself. That way RP still makes $$ from reaching other audiences via the links and us here on RP really know what the RP audience thinks of our accepted shots. I personally like when a shot of mine hits the top 4 (who dont?) and naturally, I want it to stay there for as long it can until my time is up and on to the next great picture....

John Russell - NZ 06-18-2020 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moffat Road (Post 196671)
Mr. Frybourg also compares the inequities of U.S. and Canada photos in SC and POTW awards compared to the rest of the world. Yes, there is a U.S. bias, but the RailPictures is a U.S.-based website! If a similar railroad photo website was located in Switzerland or Germany, or somewhere else, I would NOT expect U.S. photography to have majority of the SC or POTW images.

Mike Danneman

Well pointed out Mike. I have appreciated your photography ever since "Steel Rails Across America" was published in 1989 and I declared the Americans have finally arrived! Returning to your comment, there are similar websites in Germany and elsewhere in Europe and I note that American involvement is rather limited. Indeed the European domination is probably more than US/ Canada domination on RP. But over time that might change. A regular US based contributor and voting member on one site left RP with his photos and told me how he has grown in his appreciation of foreign trains since he moved to the site.

I personally don't care much about awards or view data. Nor can I believe a significant number of viewers just look at the home page. The issue is that RP being what it is - a US based and biased site - will not be worthwhile or become too frustrating for many newcomers outside North America. The perception of harsher screening of photos of foreign trains by possibly every RP member/ viewer in this country means most give up and seem to have little interest in the site. That leaves a most miserly home audience. This thread started with the reputation of RP and this is another aspect of this debate IMO. I can't see this debate changing anything unless we, the customers, change our behavior (just like for any other business really.) If you don't like the bias or preferences here then how about showing appreciation of photos that you find so worthy? As much as I admire Jean-Marc for his passionate stand, I don't recall he has ever liked a single photo I have here. As Loyd well said, the faves tell the story. But it's not the story it should be. I appreciate the RP community but we are miserable! I'm not sure what the active membership/ viewership is now for RP but let's say it's 35000. With around 1% that in my following on flickr, my photos there fairly consistently get more faves (many times as many) also almost all from overseas from similar number of views. I have selected around 5% of whole RP photo database as favorites despite joining only 7 years ago. That's not nearly enough! I only realized in the last year that I should favorite the photos I add to albums to show appreciation to the photographers and hopefully encourage them to continue posting. I suspect that it's only with more viewer appreciation that we will see more screener appreciation for our photos and the continued international growth for this precious site.

bigbassloyd 06-19-2020 02:16 PM

I'll admit that I'm quite stingy with likes and comments on here. It has to be a shot that hits me in the feels, or is a technically difficult capture that is well executed. I'm not a guy with social media standards. :)

Loyd L.

KevinM 06-19-2020 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbassloyd (Post 196744)
I'll admit that I'm quite stingy with likes and comments on here. It has to be a shot that hits me in the feels, or is a technically difficult capture that is well executed. I'm not a guy with social media standards. :)

Loyd L.

Loyd, I feel the same way. I am probably more free with Comments than with Favorites. I have always reserved Favorites for images that I wish were mine....meaning they were photos that were better than mine, or photos of subjects I wanted to capture. These were images I would hold up and say: "This is where I want to be." That's still the case, but as we progress with our photography and (hopefully) get better, we raise the bar so to speak with respect to our goals.....better lighting, better composition, better processing, more technically difficult, etc. So, images that I might have favorited 10 years ago would probably not get the flag today.

MassArt Images 07-05-2020 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbassloyd (Post 196744)
I'll admit that I'm quite stingy with likes and comments on here. It has to be a shot that hits me in the feels, or is a technically difficult capture that is well executed. I'm not a guy with social media standards. :)

Loyd L.

But you are the nicest guy from Hinton, WV that I've ever met!

bigbassloyd 07-06-2020 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MassArt Images (Post 196771)
But you are the nicest guy from Hinton, WV that I've ever met!

I'm safe until another railfan pops up from here :D

Loyd L.


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