Old 02-08-2011, 03:18 AM   #51
jnohallman
Senior Member
 
jnohallman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,527
Default

Who owns the station/platform has a lot to do with it. As it stands, AMTRAK's photo policy regarding ticket holding passengers and platforms is only applicable/enforceable at stations AMTRAK actually owns. So, for instance, you can't go down to the platform at 30th St. station in Philly or at Union Station in DC to shoot photos. Of course, without a ticket you can't go onto the platforms at either of those stations period - at least in theory. On the other hand, I can wander onto the "platform" at the Williamsburg Transportation Center and hang out all I want, because Amtrak is a tenant (and not the only one), but the city is the owner.

Jon
__________________
"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." - Mark Twain

Click here to see my photos on RP.net!

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, click here. Don't even think about it. I'm warning you!

Last edited by jnohallman; 02-08-2011 at 08:07 PM. Reason: World Champion Speler :)
jnohallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:22 AM   #52
Greg P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 1,003
Send a message via AIM to Greg P
Default

This is my personal interpretation of the rule:

If you can walk right up to the tracks, it's a public area.

If you have to enter a building to get to the tracks, it's a restricted area.
Greg P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:26 AM   #53
jnohallman
Senior Member
 
jnohallman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg P View Post
This is my personal interpretation of the rule:

If you can walk right up to the tracks, it's a public area.

If you have to enter a building to get to the tracks, it's a restricted area.
That could be a dangerous interpretation. There are a number of "Amshaks" that are owned by Amtrak and sit on railroad property, but that you don't have to walk through the building to get to the tracks. In theory, AMTRAK's policy applies to them too. Now, whether or not there will actually be an AMTRAK employee there to notice is another matter.

Jon
__________________
"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." - Mark Twain

Click here to see my photos on RP.net!

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, click here. Don't even think about it. I'm warning you!
jnohallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:31 AM   #54
Ween
Senior Member
 
Ween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,861
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
Ok, based on your interpretation of the policy, how did this happen?

Image © EL ROCO Photography
PhotoID: 321327
Photograph © EL ROCO Photography


The cop never asked if I was a ticketed passenger (I was at the time) and there are no signs at LAUST that limit access to the platform to ticketed persons only.

The question you need to ask is if I am not allowed to photograph Amtrak trains from a platform, then why didn't the officer address that?
You have one example which is hardly the overarching rule. That's like saying it'd be okay to drive 100mph through a town if the cop sees you and doesn't pull you over...
__________________
Ween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 04:34 AM   #55
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Who owns the station/platform has a lot to do with it. As it stands, AMTRAK's photo policy regarding ticket holding passengers and platforms is only applicable/enforceable at stations AMTRAK actually owns. So, fo instance, you can't go down to the platform at 30th St. station in Philly or at Union Station in DC to shoot photos. Of course, without a ticket you can't go onto the platforms at either of those stations period - at least in theory. On the other hand, I can wander onto the "platform" at the Williamsburg Transportation Center and hang out all I want, because Amtrak is a tenant (and not the only one), but the city is the owner.

Jon

I don't think Amtrak owns Washington Union Station... also they have this on their website.

http://www.unionstationdc.com/info/media

I think Amtrak only owns the Pennsylvania Railroad (and New Haven) built stations.

If I remember right, they do own Chicago Union Station.

Los Angeles Union Station is not Amtrak property.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 12:21 PM   #56
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
So, fo instance, you can't go down to the platform at 30th St. station in Philly or at Union Station in DC to shoot photos.
Fo real?!


__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias

Last edited by JimThias; 02-08-2011 at 04:47 PM.
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 02:24 PM   #57
nikos1
Senior Member
 
nikos1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
I don't think Amtrak owns Washington Union Station... also they have this on their website.

http://www.unionstationdc.com/info/media

I think Amtrak only owns the Pennsylvania Railroad (and New Haven) built stations.

If I remember right, they do own Chicago Union Station.

Los Angeles Union Station is not Amtrak property.
Do they own the Metra platforms at Union too? I only got stopped once trying to get into a Amtrak platform, (just pretended I was lost lol) but wandered around for about two hours in the subterranean maze shooting Metra stuff trying to stay out of the cold and rain with tripod and all and no one bothered me, even got one of the elusive F40C's. Then again maybe I just didnt get caught.
__________________


Wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=7861

More wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://nikos1.rrpicturearchives.net/

Video wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's
http://youtube.com/profile?user=nikosjk1
nikos1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:00 PM   #58
Hatchetman
Part-Time Railfan
 
Hatchetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,381
Default

Amtrak owns Chicago Union Station, but the Amtrak personnel only care if you are on the platforms that Amtrak trains actually use (or even getting near them!).

Last edited by Hatchetman; 02-08-2011 at 05:11 PM.
Hatchetman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:17 PM   #59
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias View Post
Fo real?!


Well, you CAN, but...

And for the record, I believe Amtrak does actually OWN Washington Union Station, but has contracted out it's operation and leased most of the facility to some third party. They used to be VERY bad about photography inside the station complex (not including the platforms), even going so far as to hassle some Amtrak executive who was taping a promo there. I am sure that's on youtube somewhere.

Last edited by troy12n; 02-08-2011 at 03:19 PM.
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:28 PM   #60
chench1536
Member
 
chench1536's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Massohio
Posts: 94
Default

I really wish they would have phrased the rule a little more specifically and not just made it completely broad-based. Something like this would be a whole lot better:
Photography is restricted at the following stations (barring exceptions i.e. ticketed passengers, news photographers, etc.): New York Penn Station, Philadelphia 30th St. Station, Washington Union Station, and Chicago Union Station. Stations that are not owned by Amtrak are subject to the policy of the owners (Boston South Station would be open to photos since the MBTA permits photography, but in this case, I'd still ask for permission since all Transit Police officers still don't really know what the policy is. LA Union Station, I would have no clue how that would work.) All Amtrak owned stations, besides those listed above as restricted, photography is permitted.

I don't see why they couldn't have phrased it somewhat like this so that there isn't as much gray area as there is now...then again, I don't see many things.
chench1536 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 03:43 PM   #61
viper
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thunderhorn (US)
Posts: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chench1536 View Post
I really wish they would have phrased the rule a little more specifically and not just made it completely broad-based.

I don't see why they couldn't have phrased it somewhat like this so that there isn't as much gray area as there is now...then again, I don't see many things.

Government Rule #1: Do not make ANYTHING easy to understand. There should always be something not clarified.

If you think I'm kidding, why can't SCOTUS actually make a ruling that defines law or the IRS promote a tax code that's understandable?
viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 04:20 PM   #62
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy12n View Post
Well, you CAN, but...

And for the record, I believe Amtrak does actually OWN Washington Union Station, but has contracted out it's operation and leased most of the facility to some third party. They used to be VERY bad about photography inside the station complex (not including the platforms), even going so far as to hassle some Amtrak executive who was taping a promo there. I am sure that's on youtube somewhere.

Please site your source. According to all records on the Web that I find Union Station does NOT belong to Amtrak. The leasing company is not leasing it from Amtrak, but from the owners.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 04:53 PM   #63
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb Response to some good issues.

Whether you get to a platform through a building can, but is not the required element as to what is a restricted area or not.

At LAUST the building is open to the public and since there is a restaurant on site and other businesses, it is foreseeable that non-passengers are going to enter to use those businesses - and such use is not prohibited.

Contrast that situation with an airport where only ticketed persons are allowed into the building and you pass thorough security.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
...[portion omitted]...Los Angeles Union Station is not Amtrak property.
I think the big issue at LAUST is that there are not assigned platforms with the exception of the light rail line (trolley).

Consequently, since none of the platform space is exclusive to any carrier whether it be Amtrak or Metrolink, and because the platforms are accessible from the street as well as through the building, Amtrak cannot enforce their photo policy on the platforms at LAUST.

Also Metrolink cannot enforce their usual policy of ticked riders only because they do not have exclusive control either.

Another important rule to remember is that a lessor of land can exclude persons and defend against trespassers as if they own the land during the period of their lease.

Mere ownership of the land is not required when a party holds another interest in the subject land that is recognized by law to be an exclusive use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Who owns the station/platform has a lot to do with it. As it stands, AMTRAK's photo policy regarding ticket holding passengers and platforms is only applicable/enforceable at stations AMTRAK actually owns. ..[portion omitted]..
The policy could apply to leased property that Amtrak has exclusive control over.

Also the policy clearly applies to all of Amtrak's trains and rolling stock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg P View Post
This is my personal interpretation of the rule: If you can walk right up to the tracks, it's a public area.

If you have to enter a building to get to the tracks, it's a restricted area.
In California and most States there are some other rules that apply.

California Penal Code section 369(i) states the following:

369i. (a) Any person who enters or remains upon the property of any railroad without the permission of the owner of the land, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession and whose entry, presence, or conduct upon the property interferes with, interrupts, or hinders, or which, if allowed to continue, would interfere with, interrupt, or hinder the safe and efficient operation of any locomotive, railway car, or train is guilty of a misdemeanor.

As used in this subdivision, "property of any railroad" means any land owned, leased, or possessed by a railroad upon which is placed a railroad track and the land immediately adjacent thereto, to the distance of 20 feet on either side of the track, which is owned, leased, or possessed by a railroad.

(b) Any person who enters or remains upon any rail transit related property owned or operated by a county transportation commission or transportation authority without permission or whose entry, presence, or conduct upon the property interferes with, interrupts, or hinders
the safe and efficient operation of the railline or rail-related
facility is guilty of a misdemeanor.

As used in this subdivision, "rail transit related property" means any land or facilities owned, leased, or possessed by a county transportation commission or transportation authority.

(c) This section does not prohibit picketing in the immediately adjacent area of the property of any railroad or rail transit related property or any lawful activity by which the public is informed of the existence of an alleged labor dispute.

* * * *

There are places where one can get closer to the tracks than the 20 foot limit in section 369(i) such as stations, platforms, crossings and other public walkways and streets that are less than 20 feet from a track.

Also 369(i) is not going to apply in a street running situation, but in the Cajon Pass, it would be 20 feet most often even though there are no signs or gates.




Quote:
Originally Posted by crazytiger View Post
My interpretation of that is that you could be there to get on a Metrolink. So, you can stay. Ha Ha.
That is a very subtle observation which led you to a correct conclusion.

Perhaps you may wish to pursue a career in law.



Quote:
Originally Posted by coborn35 View Post
According to the photo policy, there MAY be a sign distinguishing it, but that doesn't mean if there isn't a sign you have permission to be there.
Nope you are right.

However the lack of signage means that you didn't know you were trespassing when you stepped onto the prohibited land.

Therefore since trespassing requires the specific intent to do it, a prosecution would be unsuccessful.

Course that is only going to work once.

Last edited by Holloran Grade; 02-08-2011 at 05:02 PM.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 05:36 PM   #64
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
That is a very subtle observation which led you to a correct conclusion.

Perhaps you may wish to pursue a career in law.
No, I'd rather do public policy (Transportation, specifically). So much more interesting.
__________________
Be governed accordingly,

PFL
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 07:08 PM   #65
stevenmwelch
Senior Member
 
stevenmwelch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 720
Send a message via AIM to stevenmwelch Send a message via Yahoo to stevenmwelch
Default

OMG, look at what I started!!!
__________________
Steven M. Welch
Minot, ND
I gots my floaties and I'm ready to go railroadin' in Minot.
My Photos on RP
My RP Rejects and then Some
stevenmwelch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 08:09 PM   #66
jnohallman
Senior Member
 
jnohallman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias View Post
Fo real?!


Fo sho

Jon
__________________
"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." - Mark Twain

Click here to see my photos on RP.net!

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, click here. Don't even think about it. I'm warning you!

Last edited by jnohallman; 02-10-2011 at 09:52 PM. Reason: Lack of street cred . . .
jnohallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 09:01 PM   #67
coborn35
Senior Member
 
coborn35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 1,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post

Nope you are right.

However the lack of signage means that you didn't know you were trespassing when you stepped onto the prohibited land.

Therefore since trespassing requires the specific intent to do it, a prosecution would be unsuccessful.

Course that is only going to work once.
Ahh yes. Well played.
__________________
I personally have had a problem with those trying to tell us to turn railroad photography into an "art form." It's fine for them to do so, I welcome it in fact, but what I do have a problem with is that the practitioners of the more "arty" shots, I have found, tend to look down their nose's at others who are shooting more "mundane" shots.
Railroad photography is what you make of it, but one way is not "better" than another, IMHO. Unless you have a pole right thought the nose of the engine! -SG
coborn35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 09:12 PM   #68
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
However the lack of signage means that you didn't know you were trespassing when you stepped onto the prohibited land.

Therefore since trespassing requires the specific intent to do it, a prosecution would be unsuccessful.

Course that is only going to work once.
Not sure if Canada has similar laws or not, but on my first time ever in Toronto Union Station, I walked from the grand waiting room to the track access and found a set of stairs. with both doors to it propped open.

I went up th stairs and was on the platforms. I walked around for about ten minutes, taking what shots I could in the dark confines of the station, and then walked out to the end of one platform to wait for the Ontario Northland. The train came and I got my picture (everything was a single fame back then).

As I began to walk back, I saw some GO F59PHs moving in and out, and lined up for that, when I see two officers waving at me. They came up and asked what I was doing and I told them and they said I was trespassing.

I apologized and said I didn't know and asked if I could just take my one last shot before I left. "No" I was told.

Still, the conversation was basically friendly (the wrote me up a warning that looked like a citation). We walked back through the open doors and I said to them, "See, no sign." One officer then shuts the door and shows me that it says "No trespassing."

All of a sudden, she starts acting as if she's had enough of me and is angry. She starts telling me off that I should have seen that the door was propped open by mistake and should have closed it to read what it said first before going up the stairs.

I was so taken aback, I wasn't quite sure what was the smarter option, to defend myself or just let it go. Luckily, I chose the latter and was just escorted out of the station.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2011, 10:22 PM   #69
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
We walked back through the open doors and I said to them, "See, no sign." One officer then shuts the door and shows me that it says "No trespassing."

All of a sudden, she starts acting as if she's had enough of me and is angry. She starts telling me off that I should have seen that the door was propped open by mistake and should have closed it to read what it said first before going up the stairs.

I was so taken aback, I wasn't quite sure what was the smarter option, to defend myself or just let it go. Luckily, I chose the latter and was just escorted out of the station.
After she closed the door to show you the sign, I would have said, "Ah, ok, NOW I see why you are taking it so personally."



(seriously...why do cops and security people act like your presence in a place you're not supposed to be is as bad as insulting their mother?)
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2011, 01:55 PM   #70
BenEPhoto
Member
 
BenEPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coaststarlight14 View Post
I was considering it but decided no when i first posted this...
you'd have to have seen my posts in a different thread...

but I'll give a brief description of those posts...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=288162
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=257334
i did not like how the screener decided to abide from some of their rules that had rejected all my photos and let these two photos into the database despite cloudy skies, going away shots, a train that's pretty much minuscule, the fact that the first one has people taking up most of the image, and the fact they are both including nearly naked women.

here's our heated discussion after i deleted my first two comments
The first one uses great composition and lighting.....the second one, ehhh its just another photo of a girl near tracks. But Ive noticed your problem CoastStarlight......seems that you just have a problem with girls in photos cause you don't know any or you cant get any to be in your photos? I'm just making a generalization of what I have seen from your post about photos you don't like. You take roster style shots and you complain when other people get their photos in. Suck it up, learn from the screeners (yes sometimes they can be wrong), but don't get your feelings hurt. Photog up, and use their critique to help your own photography instead of complaining about someone elses work. End of my input.
BenEPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2011, 09:28 PM   #71
AntD.
Senior Member
 
AntD.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 372
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Fo shure

Jon
It's actually "Fo Sho", don't ask how I would just so happen to know...
__________________
Livin' The Dream!

My RP Photos

My Flickr Photos

My RRPA Photos

YouTube Videos
AntD. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2011, 09:53 PM   #72
jnohallman
Senior Member
 
jnohallman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntD. View Post
It's actually "Fo Sho", don't ask how I would just so happen to know...
Where's Betty White when you need her?

Jon
__________________
"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." - Mark Twain

Click here to see my photos on RP.net!

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, click here. Don't even think about it. I'm warning you!
jnohallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.