Old 06-19-2009, 02:10 PM   #1
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And post a "WTF comparison" thread

But somewhat more seriously, we had a pretty rare 10 hour late Amtrak in good sun through Toledo yesterday (@ 3PM) and I caught it in two good recognizeable spots and got dinged for "high sun" on both:

at the depot

departing

I think we could probably agree that these are generally good pictures and the "high sun" shadow on the front plow (no shadows on the side) has a relatively minimal impact. They're also newsworthy pictures that encompass more of a scene than a boring "wedgie in the woods" somewhere. So why do these get canned for "high sun" when during the same period yesterday all of these shots get accepted with *more* shadow across the front plow?

Another Amtrak:

Image © Dean J. Splittgerber
PhotoID: 287876
Photograph © Dean J. Splittgerber


CSX on a bridge:

Image © C Middlebrook
PhotoID: 287885
Photograph © C Middlebrook


A plain wedgie with a mix of BNSF power:

Image © Nick Hart
PhotoID: 287882
Photograph © Nick Hart


And a CSX intermodal:

Image © Brent Kneebush
PhotoID: 287870
Photograph © Brent Kneebush


So what's the difference? Of the accepted, the Amtrak shot and CSX intermodal re-route are "newsworthy" but otherwise plain high sun shots in unexciting locations. The other two aren't even that newsworthy - and besides, apparently "newsworthyness" doesn't seem to hold a lot of value here? (the whole great pictures of trains vs. pictures of interesting trains thing...)

Now I'm sure my two examples could be further "picked apart" on minor technical/processing aspects but that's certainly true of almost any shot including many of the ones accepted here. I'm assuming that even if I perfected the processing on these they'd still get canned for "high sun"? Rather than go complain somewhere else, I figured I'd ask the question here to see if I get a little better understanding of what I'm missing that makes the acceptances/rejections seem so inconsistent to me?

Thanks,
Michael
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:13 PM   #2
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Your second shot might be worthy of apppeal, but that's a big might with an almost equally but right beside it. What I want to know is how an Amtrak train being late is newsworthy? Doesn't it happen all the time? Maybe ten hours is a lot, but still. I still don't see it getting in as it's too train-centric for me with the bad sun.

Your first shot is, with all due respect, reallly just horrible. There's not much you could have done about any of it withh the exception of the placement of the train which is tooo centered for my tates. Otherwise, there's just nothhing to look at. Maybe that could be part of the caption, I don't know. It just looks depressing with the surrondings and the awful lighting.

I'm not going to respond on the other shots you linked as we're talking about your work, not theirs, other than to say thanks for linking to the CSX shot in Richmond. That's one of my favorite locations and I had missed that shhot. Can't wait to go back and duplicate what that photographer and others have done.
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by MDH View Post
I think we could probably agree that these are generally good pictures and the "high sun" shadow on the front plow (no shadows on the side) has a relatively minimal impact.
No, we don't agree. The issue is not the plow or the sides, it is the trucks and the rails, and the general harshness of the light throughout.

Your comparison shots seem to be shots with some nose shadowing, which leads me to believe that you simply misinterpreted the rejection, which in your shots is not a nose issue. It is high sun!

Note the length to the side of the shadow in the comparison Amtrak shot, and the lack of shadows off the rail heads. Note the length of the signal box shadow in the last comparison shot, and again the rails. Those aren't high sun.

As an aside, should you have the opportunity to do the Toledo station shot again, try a bit less sky and a bit more on the left. It feels a bit imbalanced. It is a nice scene, depressing to be sure but worthy of recording (think of the nice Buffalo terminal shots on RP) and I hope you get a nice shot there some day.
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:37 PM   #4
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I agree, ALL of those images should have been rejected for one thing or another considering the "standards" here. Even the CSX on the bridge isn't that great, but yeah, I'm not sure what the screeners see sometimes.

As far as the two that were actually rejected, the first one isn't sharp, and the second one lacks a good focal center to me. Too much train. Telephoto shots that compress the rest of the train don't always work.

I often wonder if the site doesn't have a minimum number of photos they target to accept weekly. I know they don't wish to overload the site with junk, but I'm pretty sure they want to have more than 100 photos added a week. If people simply aren't submitting, it's my guess that a lot of the regulars can probably get shots accepted that would normally get rejected by someone else with less RP experience.

Again this is conjecture on my part, but as we all know about RP.net, everything is an ancient Chinese secret around here!
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:07 PM   #5
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Border line pour light with the high and hazy sun, Work your colors, they are vary blue and thats what's holding them back??????? Other wise there a nice shot's but not head turners.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:13 PM   #6
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I often wonder if the site doesn't have a minimum number of photos they target to accept weekly. I know they don't wish to overload the site with junk, but I'm pretty sure they want to have more than 100 photos added a week. If people simply aren't submitting, it's my guess that a lot of the regulars can probably get shots accepted that would normally get rejected by someone else with less RP experience.
Wow. I guess with 602 shots here, I'm not a regular, because I get all kinds of shots rejected that I think should get in.

Hey, guys, aside from getting an Elite membership, how does one get to be a "regular" here? Do I need to start leaving comments on the Chris' personal photos?

By the way, there were 781 photos here in the last week. How many of those are borederline shots from regulars?

Honestly, this is the funniest thing I've heard in a while.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:18 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
What I want to know is how an Amtrak train being late is newsworthy? Doesn't it happen all the time?


It's less about 'high sun' and more about bad contrast /bad color. Both of yours need processing. The other's you chose all are pleasing to the eye where as yours hurt.

Janusz's suggestion on composition would result in a better photo also.

Remember RP doesn't care how rare the train is; it cares about how good the photograph is.

Here is my stab at histogram balance with levels, highlight/shadow adjustment and a tad of saturation.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:34 PM   #8
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Wow. I guess with 602 shots here, I'm not a regular, because I get all kinds of shots rejected that I think should get in.
OK, I should have said regulars that don't continually post their rejections in the forums looking for second opinions. I don't know if you realize it, but when you do that, it comes off as if you're questioning their abilities. Be a good boy, and keep your rejections to yourself.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:47 PM   #9
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It's less about 'high sun' and more about bad contrast /bad color. Both of yours need processing. The other's you chose all are pleasing to the eye where as yours hurt.
Dennis, I suspect you know this at one level or another, but while high sun is in one part about areas in a shot that are dark (trucks, rail sides) it is also in another part about the harshness of mid-day light, or to put it differently, "bad contrast / bad color." What you said is the flip side of the same coin, in part, rather than being an alternative.

Your effort is pretty good but to my eye not good enough (because good enough is not possible). Could be wrong.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:48 PM   #10
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Please, that's what these forums are for. Half the time, I say something like "I can't see it" which at least suggests that the problem lies with me. I really doubt the screeners are that vain and they do actually point people to these forums on either the upload page or the rejection poage. (Can't remember which right now.)

Do a quick search on my recent posts. In almost all of them, I'm telling the photog that the screener was right in rejecting their shot.

You're reaching.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Dennis, I suspect you know this at one level or another, but while high sun is in one part about areas in a shot that are dark (trucks, rail sides) it is also in another part about the harshness of mid-day light, or to put it differently, "bad contrast / bad color." What you said is the flip side of the same coin, in part, rather than being an alternative.
Janusz, I agree absolutely the sun angle here is harsh and it makes the shot much less attractive to the eye. But the first thing that hit me, and the first thing that should be done is to present the image in the best possible "light." (pun intended) Then the merits of the photo can more properly addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Your effort is pretty good but to my eye not good enough (because good enough is not possible). Could be wrong.
I make NO pretensions of being a processing expert. I'll weasel out by saying I didn't have the original file!
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:11 PM   #12
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Your effort is pretty good but to my eye not good enough (because good enough is not possible). Could be wrong.
Quote:
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I make NO pretensions of being a processing expert. I'll weasel out by saying I didn't have the original file!
To be clear, there is nothing to weasel out of. I am saying that I think no processing effort could save the shot.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:23 PM   #13
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I understood what you meant. No amount of tweaking could get rid of the ugly light of this shot.

As originally presented, an instant reject.

With processing, it makes the screener think at least a moment.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:56 PM   #14
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I often wonder if the site doesn't have a minimum number of photos they target to accept weekly. I know they don't wish to overload the site with junk, but I'm pretty sure they want to have more than 100 photos added a week.
I think you mean at least 100 photos a day????

But...what's the motivation for having a set number of photos added per week? What's the benefit? I'd like to see your thoughts on how you've come to that conclusion, Chuck...
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:22 PM   #15
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Content deleted.
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:23 PM   #16
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And post a "WTF comparison" thread

But somewhat more seriously, we had a pretty rare 10 hour late Amtrak in good sun through Toledo yesterday (@ 3PM) and I caught it in two good recognizeable spots and got dinged for "high sun" on both:

departing
Another Amtrak:

Image © Dean J. Splittgerber
PhotoID: 287876
Photograph © Dean J. Splittgerber
Michael, here's an exercise for you: Put each photo above in a different tab and then go back and forth between the two. Look at the difference in lighting and color. The lighting in your rejected Amtrak shot is harsh, while the lighting in the accepted shot is warm and colorful.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:55 AM   #17
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Michael, here's an exercise for you: Put each photo above in a different tab and then go back and forth between the two. Look at the difference in lighting and color. The lighting in your rejected Amtrak shot is harsh, while the lighting in the accepted shot is warm and colorful.

I see the distinction you're making (and the others that pointed out as much in different ways) regarding the "quality" of the light and how "appealing" the shot is to look at. I could have done a better job processing both shots and in fact have played around with them some more and have a better product now for myself as I won't bother uploading them again for the reasons stated.

I now see that (and why) these simply do not meet the criteria this site is looking for.

Thanks to those who responded for your time.

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Old 06-20-2009, 02:12 AM   #18
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A slight level and color balance change. Still need more work but you can see the slight changes start to help the harsh light.
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:20 AM   #19
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Michael,

Try Travis's and my suggestions and see what happens.
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis A. Livesey View Post


It's less about 'high sun' and more about bad contrast /bad color. Both of yours need processing. The other's you chose all are pleasing to the eye where as yours hurt.

Janusz's suggestion on composition would result in a better photo also.

Remember RP doesn't care how rare the train is; it cares about how good the photograph is.

Here is my stab at histogram balance with levels, highlight/shadow adjustment and a tad of saturation.
Very nice. The image that goes with this post above.
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:01 AM   #21
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Very nice. The image that goes with this post above.
Sorry, disagree with Dennis' version (post 7) and Travis' agreement. Too much lightening of the shadows in my view, not enough contrast. Here is my version.

But the good news, maybe there is still hope for this one!
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:09 AM   #22
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Forgot to consider an alternative crop. Also, the colors in Dennis' version are too jazzed for my tastes, these are more muted.

Good luck figuring out what to do!
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:16 AM   #23
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Gee, stuck between two excellent RP photographers!

So...

I'll concur with Travis's evaluation...

but agree with Janusz!


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Old 06-20-2009, 03:29 AM   #24
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Also, the colors in Dennis' version are too jazzed for my tastes, these are more muted.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

I will say my "quickie" attempt at processing is lighter than yours. But then consequently the color is less saturated too.

So how is the color "too jazzed"? (could be display differences?)

Here are the two side by side.

BTW, I agree on the crop as you had suggested.
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:44 AM   #25
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So how is the color "too jazzed"? (could be display differences?)

Here are the two side by side.
Dunno, I look at it now and it isn't the same problem. I look at the jpgs on my HD and they don't look the same as I recall them looking then. It must be some sort of latent hostility; just what did you do to me in a previous life, anyway?

PS: I still prefer my take on contrast and shadows.
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