Old 01-23-2012, 03:05 AM   #51
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Agreed....good discussion. However, what's the point of using a wide angle to introduce distortion, only to use Photoshop to "undistort" the image?
No point, IF it was intentional. Travis's shot is obviously intentional and beneficial to the composition. It was done to exaggerate the height of the towering skyscrapers. Chase's pic is not as awkward almost having, though likely unintentional, fish eye effect. With Andrew's shot, the effect does not add in any way that I can see. It detracts. It simply looks like one of those shots where the flaw could not be worked around rather then an intent to capture a certain feel.

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I can accept that...and peddle my peaches somewhere else (or just let them rot in the basket) if I choose not to "undistort" my intentially distorted wide angle shots.
I'm just picturing shooting with you in the 60's and 70's and saying - "Hey Ron, you wanna use my Tilt-shift lens?". Bet more times then not, you'd have taken me up on the offer!

/Mitch
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:25 AM   #52
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Two prime examples that may best illustrated your perspective would be the rumbling and clicking of a record vrs the quiet and noise free CD. There, you have a defect that "adds" warmth and perhaps an "accurate" feel for the sound as recorded some of us grew up with.
You're going to like this. For many years I was deep into music production, mostly re-editing and remixing dance music tracks. Most of the time my source recording to work with was digital, either from a CD or digital copy of some sort from a record label. When I couldn't get that, I'd use a vinyl copy and then spend HOURS cleaning up all the record pops and crackles. Unlike some old schoolers, I couldn't stand the sound of record pops in my recordings!

I'm OCD. I can't help it.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:01 AM   #53
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I'm just picturing shooting with you in the 60's and 70's and saying - "Hey Ron, you wanna use my Tilt-shift lens?". Bet more times then not, you'd have taken me up on the offer!

/Mitch
Probably so. My camera equipment was so primitive back then I would have gladly used anything you had....tilt lens, tilt-a-whirl, or tilt death do us part.

This horse is officially dead.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:08 AM   #54
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Before I sign off for the night...do you think this one would be accepted? I'm trying to get the hang of this lens correction stuff.

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Old 01-23-2012, 12:34 PM   #55
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Ron, which one do you prefer?

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Old 01-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #56
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It seems that some or many of those here are implicitly adhering to a one-way-is-right view. I prefer perspective controlled, but that is a preference. And, for that matter, there is often not one right way to do it. I think of shots that just look wrong without any tilt-in at the top, they look too wide, or thick may be a better way to put it. If you take away the tilt-in, you take away the natural perspective that has lines converging at infinity. Our brain processes that into verticality in real life because it knows what it is looking at. That applies more to wide angle verticals than horizontals, but it can apply then also, depending on the view.

And, frankly, a lot of wide angle is at its core a type of distortion, regardless of perspective correction. Our eyes see at a "normal" range. Now, that is hardly a hard relationship and our brain does a lot of work processing info, so we can "see" at the equivalent of any focal length to some extent, perhaps not instantaneously, but we can appreciate a view that is panoramic.

So don't be so doctrinaire on this stuff, my view. But my shots will be mostly lined up vertically, I like it that way.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #57
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I think I'm catching on to what Ron is saying...

If something wasn't fixable in the old days, it wasn't a problem. It just was.

I can understand that line of thought. Why sweat something being level or distorted when there was absolutely nothing that you could do about it once the shutter went click (or snap, buzz, or whatever sound an old camera makes )?

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It seems that some or many of those here are implicitly adhering to a one-way-is-right view
I think there's a very fine line between artistic unlevel and level, and artistic distorted and ugly distorted. The middle "eh kinda sorta maybe" ground shots bug me. I'm ocd on it like Jim is. Either make it completely level, or turn the SOB sideways.. lol




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Old 01-23-2012, 02:11 PM   #58
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Ron, which one do you prefer?

They're both unlevel.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:25 PM   #59
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Looking at today's Wall Street Journal, we see blatently unlevel and/or distorted shots on pages: 3,8,10(2 of them), 12(2).

Twenty total pages, 6 unlevel and distorted photos.

Seem like journalism isn't all that concerned with these issues.

Jeez, there's a huge one on the front of section B.

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Old 01-23-2012, 03:51 PM   #60
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Looking at today's Wall Street Journal, we see blatently unlevel and/or distorted shots on pages: 3,8,10(2 of them), 12(2).

Twenty total pages, 6 unlevel and distorted photos.

Seem like journalism isn't all that concerned with these issues.

Jeez, there's a huge one on the front of section B.
yeah, WSJ is where I go for the best photography..

brb, going to weather.com to find out who won yesterday in the NBA..

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Old 01-23-2012, 03:51 PM   #61
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Here is a horizontal that I have always felt is top heavy, due to the correction. But one can think of it as an exception also, as it has an unusual amount of what I will call top mass relative to bottom mass.

Image © Janusz Mrozek
PhotoID: 174510
Photograph © Janusz Mrozek


I've never revisited the processing, but I have sometimes wondered how it would look with a bit of lean.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:53 PM   #62
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but I have sometimes wondered how it would look with a bit of lean.
Gangsta

EOM

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Old 01-23-2012, 04:01 PM   #63
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yeah, WSJ is where I go for the best photography..
Loyd L.
perhaps not. but they have circulation of 2.2 million and people actually earn a living taking those photographs.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #64
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Corrected and accepted.
Image © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
PhotoID: 387624
Photograph © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #65
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And as the debate rages on, the original in question has made it in.

Image © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
PhotoID: 387624
Photograph © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)


So, which way did you go with it and what did you do to it?
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:40 PM   #66
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Corrected and accepted.
Image © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
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I like the adjusted version. I just hope you don't feel dirty.

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Old 01-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #67
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And as the debate rages on, the original in question has made it in.

Image © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
PhotoID: 387624
Photograph © Andrew Blaszczyk (2)


So, which way did you go with it and what did you do to it?
I fixed the perspective.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:56 PM   #68
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Ron, which one do you prefer?

Easy...the one on the right. However, that's a poor compositional choice for a wide angle lens. For sure, it doesn't work in every instance.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:58 PM   #69
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I like the adjusted version. I just hope you don't feel dirty.

Loyd L.
It looks fine....but I would view it as a sell-out. Sorry, guys...I hope we're all still friends!
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:07 PM   #70
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It looks fine....but I would view it as a sell-out. Sorry, guys...I hope we're all still friends!
Personally, I think this is the best the forum has been in a long time (discussion wise). Valid (and invalid) points from both sides, and no ill feelings.

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Last edited by bigbassloyd; 01-23-2012 at 05:08 PM. Reason: I forgot to quote Ron. Now I'm just typing to see if there is a limit to the amount of text you can type into this box. So f
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:15 PM   #71
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One thing that I've been wondering about for a while...

If you take a photo with a wide-angle lens tilted upward or downward (thus introducing additional perspective distortion into the image,) do you need to compensate by moving the leveling point either up or down in the image?

I ask because in this photo:

Image © Jacques Leblond-Murphy
PhotoID: 360199
Photograph © Jacques Leblond-Murphy


I remember leveling it off of the centermost grab iron on the locomotive, because it just never looked right if I picked a point farther up on the structure. (As a sidenote, I submitted it with a comment that I wasn't sure about the leveling, and in fact got a response that it looked good.)

-Jacques
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:44 PM   #72
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One thing that I've been wondering about for a while...

If you take a photo with a wide-angle lens tilted upward or downward (thus introducing additional perspective distortion into the image,) do you need to compensate by moving the leveling point either up or down in the image?

I ask because in this photo:

Image © Jacques Leblond-Murphy
PhotoID: 360199
Photograph © Jacques Leblond-Murphy


I remember leveling it off of the centermost grab iron on the locomotive, because it just never looked right if I picked a point farther up on the structure. (As a sidenote, I submitted it with a comment that I wasn't sure about the leveling, and in fact got a response that it looked good.)

-Jacques
Yes, it's an excellent shot! And yes, you picked the right centering point.

I don't think this shot would be nearly as impressive had you used the lens correction tool to "straighten" the left and right vertical elements of the scene. This shot illustrates my point perfectly, I might add.
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Old 01-23-2012, 11:03 PM   #73
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perhaps not. but they have circulation of 2.2 million and people actually earn a living taking those photographs.
It's all about getting the photo in journalism, not perfection. That is evident in every newspaper across this country. The fact that the circulation is what it is and the photographers make a living at it is irrelevant. There are plenty of photographers working for podunk newspapers who could create the same quality level of work.

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I fixed the perspective.
The buildings in the background are still leaning inward. You may have reduced the wide angle effect, but you didn't "fix" it.

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Easy...the one on the right. However, that's a poor compositional choice for a wide angle lens. For sure, it doesn't work in every instance.
Well, the compositional choice wasn't the point of the demonstration. In fact, it was just a random shot I took several years ago that I decided to use one day for a before/after comparison shot with distortion correction. So, the fact that you prefer the one on the right means that you DO find correction acceptable, right?
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:13 AM   #74
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Well, the compositional choice wasn't the point of the demonstration. In fact, it was just a random shot I took several years ago that I decided to use one day for a before/after comparison shot with distortion correction. So, the fact that you prefer the one on the right means that you DO find correction acceptable, right?
NO! I found the lens choice to be questionable for that type of shot (I know it was just a "quickie" to make a point). The "corrected" shot is what you would have gotten had you used a "normal" lens to begin with.

So....here's the big question: why use a wide angle lens if the objective is to use lens correction to make it appear as a normal lens shot? Why not throw away your wide angles and just use a normal all the time?

I reiterate: I personally like the (intentional) distortion of a wide angle lens. That's why I have one (actually more than one), and that's why I use them.
Why would I lose that effect by "correcting" it with Photoshop? I wouldn't...and most photographers I run around with, drink beer with, etc. wouldn't either. If that's what it takes to get RP to accept a wide angle shot---well, no hard feelings at all, but I just won't bother uploading any. And---we'll all remain friends.

By now, you should know I won't change my opinion. Old people just get more stubborn and ornery with each passing year.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:35 AM   #75
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So....here's the big question: why use a wide angle lens if the objective is to use lens correction to make it appear as a normal lens shot? Why not throw away your wide angles and just use a normal all the time?
C'mon Ron, surely you know better. Were you just sloppy?
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