Old 08-06-2008, 02:25 AM   #1
Chicago Railfan
Senior Member
 
Chicago Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chi-Town subarbs
Posts: 224
Send a message via AIM to Chicago Railfan Send a message via Yahoo to Chicago Railfan
Default Glint Shot vs. Backlit

I really don't see the difference between a backlit shot and a glint shot...

Rejects:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1016929645
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=556544&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1111797988

Accepted:

Image © Darrell Krueger
PhotoID: 245570
Photograph © Darrell Krueger

Image © scooterb
PhotoID: 208525
Photograph © scooterb


Any comments, suggestions, other, etc. etc.

Last edited by Chicago Railfan; 08-06-2008 at 02:39 AM.
Chicago Railfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:44 AM   #2
cblaz
Senior Member
 
cblaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marlboro, New Jersey
Posts: 1,007
Default

Usually it's not a good idea to compare accepted shots to your rejected shots, but in this case, you will help me make a point.

Note the front of the locomotive in scooterb's shot. What do you notice, or better yet, what's missing? The answer is detail. The front of the locomotive is very dark, drawing your eye to the glint along the side.

The same thing applies to Darrell's shot. You can make out detail on the front of the locomotive, but not much. This is a hallmark of a glint shot.

What I'm trying to say is, your exposure is off in your shots. Looks like the sun was too high, or you brightened the shots too much, but they are not glint shots. They're just backlit. The focus of a glint shot should be the side of the train, and if you draw attention way from the side, or don't show enough of the side, it doesn't work out.

- Chris
cblaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:45 AM   #3
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Well, first of all, let's distinguish between an RP-accepted glint shot - lots of glint on the side - and an RP-accepted backlit shot - the nose is dark, not much glint on the side, but an interesting shot and worthy of acceptance. You have shown one of each.

What makes a glint shot work, I think commonly, is that the nose is dark and the glint has a lot of surface area. In your shots, the images are brighter, there is lots of detail visible on the noses. On the power shot, there isn't much glint. Also, a glint shot tends to be darker in general. On your train shot, it looks pretty bright and the sky is blown out. Blown out sky is bad, in general.

Oh, there is a third and related category, silhouette, where the train is dark all over.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:46 AM   #4
Chicago Railfan
Senior Member
 
Chicago Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chi-Town subarbs
Posts: 224
Send a message via AIM to Chicago Railfan Send a message via Yahoo to Chicago Railfan
Default

So if I darken it, it could look better? I still don't completely understand though, the BNSF coal train kicking up dust, has the glint on the side with the detail on the nose such as in Darrel's shot. I'm still not seeing how that is backlit instead of being called a glint shot. In that shot, the side of the train is lit up, while the nose has some detail such as Darrel's shot.

EDIT-
I tried darkening another picture after it got the backlit rejection.
Before:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1032613298
After:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=558015&key=0

Last edited by Chicago Railfan; 08-06-2008 at 02:54 AM.
Chicago Railfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:59 AM   #5
chris crook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Zanesville Ohio
Posts: 246
Default

Don't darken the shadows, darken the highlights, (but not too much) especially the sky. If it is blown out, you are pretty much done for. There is very little difference, if any, in the tonal range between the power on number 2 and the sky. They almost melt into each other. That is what'll kill your glint.
__________________
contrarian

Flickr: Armco_block
chris crook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:01 AM   #6
Chicago Railfan
Senior Member
 
Chicago Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chi-Town subarbs
Posts: 224
Send a message via AIM to Chicago Railfan Send a message via Yahoo to Chicago Railfan
Default

So basically it is the sky that is the problem?
Chicago Railfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:12 AM   #7
chris crook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Zanesville Ohio
Posts: 246
Default

If there is info in the sky, you want it, that is for sure. Whether that will get it accept, I couldn't tell you. What does the original look like?
__________________
contrarian

Flickr: Armco_block
chris crook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:53 AM   #8
Dennis A. Livesey
Senior Member
 
Dennis A. Livesey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,986
Default

#1 No chance of a backlit common power wedgie getting accepted by RP. For this to work, you must include much more fore and back ground like Darrels shot.

#2 and #3 are much better, but the trees are a bad background by not allowing any silhoutting. The sides of the cars are not that interesting or "classic glint shot gold " (I think color would help) and the huge bald white sky kills both shots.

As to Darrels shot I don't care for the flat tone of it at all. I'm surprised it was accepted. For me the best parts are the fabulous hills in the background and the interesting grass on the left. Since the train is only part of the scene, backlite is more acceptable.

Scooterb's is an excellent glint shot since the front of the engine is completely black with no detail AND the engine is silhouetted perfectly, thus drawing your eye to the long interesting cars in eye-catching contrast and warm color.
__________________
Dennis

I Foam Therefore I Am.

My pix on RailPics:

I am on Flickr as well:

"Dennis is such a God, he could do that with a camera obscura and some homemade acetate." Holloran Grade

"To me it looks drawn in in Paintshop. It looks like a puddle of orange on the sky." SFO777

Last edited by Dennis A. Livesey; 08-06-2008 at 04:25 AM.
Dennis A. Livesey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:11 AM   #9
ssw9662
Senior Member
 
ssw9662's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 839
Default

The key to a successful glint shot is to get trackside early in the morning just before sunrise and hope for a train in the window of light about 30 minutes after sunrise (or in the PM 30 minutes before sunset). You should be able to see just where the sun is shining so you can set up for the desired effect (check the sides of the rails). Try underexposing a couple of stops to avoid blowing out the sky and the sides of the cars (take test shots using the sky and the sides of the rails as a gauge for your exposure). Keep in mind that the closer you get to midday, the more it will start looking like just a backlit shot rather than a glint shot.

You guys in the Chitown area are lucky: Metra bilevels run frequently during the sweet light for these kinds of shots. Also, the sides of them are great for low sunlight. Not to mention other cars that are staples in the Chicago area (like ethanol tanks and aluminum coal gons) are good at catching sunlight.

When I spent a couple of mornings at Lisle last week I found that it is a place with some great potential for glint shots. I was able to pull off two of them quite easily with morning light at the curve around 06:30ish (I really would have loved to get a westbound freight in that light, but beggars can't be choosers I guess). I also got an eastbound coal drag in the evening that would have made for a nice glint candidate had it arrived a half hour or so later.

Most glint shots involve some luck. Since they are only possible in a narrow window of light, you have to be able to get a train at that precise time for the best results. They also require quite a bit of trial and error (don't ask how I know this ), so keep at it and you should see some results soon.
__________________
Austin
Canon EOS 7D
Canon 70-200mm f/4 L
Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Canon 50mm f/1.8
My Railpictures.net Photos
flickr

Last edited by ssw9662; 08-06-2008 at 04:19 AM. Reason: grammar errors
ssw9662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:15 AM   #10
WKUrailfan
Senior Member
 
WKUrailfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 230
Default

try to underexpose 2 or so stops for a glint shot.
WKUrailfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:13 AM   #11
milwman
I shoot what I like
 
milwman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cedar Fall's, Iowa
Posts: 2,474
Send a message via Yahoo to milwman
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
So basically it is the sky that is the problem?
The sun is to high i think, Glint shots need the sun 10 minutes from setting or less, and no trees to block it, to work. nice shots BTW
__________________
Richard Scott Marsh I go by Scott long story

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22299476@N05/
milwman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:50 AM   #12
Chicago Railfan
Senior Member
 
Chicago Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chi-Town subarbs
Posts: 224
Send a message via AIM to Chicago Railfan Send a message via Yahoo to Chicago Railfan
Default

Alright, I see I see. I guess I'll have to try for trains later in the day for it to work, along with a higher shutter. What about the ISO, should I boost it up to 100, or should I go for a lower number for light reasons, because getting evening glint shots on that line is very tricky with the trees and buildings that come up to the tracks.
Chicago Railfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 02:51 PM   #13
Dennis A. Livesey
Senior Member
 
Dennis A. Livesey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
Alright, I see I see. I guess I'll have to try for trains later in the day for it to work, along with a higher shutter. What about the ISO, should I boost it up to 100, or should I go for a lower number for light reasons, because getting evening glint shots on that line is very tricky with the trees and buildings that come up to the tracks.
First a disclaimer, I have no good glint shots to my name on RP so take my opinions with that in mind!

Glint shots are first and foremost about lighting angle. You just about have it in photos 2 & 3. Later in the day (or in the morning earlier) could be even better.

Regarding exposure, there are a couple of rules-of-thumb I use.
1. To stop action and and have clear, sharp photos of moving trains, shoot at a 500th of a second shutter speed. That will not only stop a 60 MPH speedster, it will get rid of camera shake and create a sharp, publishable photos.
2. Keep your ISO as low as possible but still allowing a 500th speed shutter in the exposure equation in order to reduce image noise. (Some digital's, particularly the new Nikons, are so noise free at higher ISO's that I think you can forget about this rule with those camera's)

On location, take some test shot exposures. Since the light meter is dumb and thinks that every shot you take has the sun behind you and the subject is is evenly lit, it will look at your backlit scene and think "Oh no, the front of the locomotive is very underexposed." The meter will then proceed to give you an exposure that is way too bright. Thus use the suggestion that you UNDERexpose 2 or 3 stops, and I suggest you do that by using the lens stops. Say for example, from f4 to f8 or f11. You should then see a good glint shot.

The single most fabulous feature of digital in the field for me is that I can see, then and there, what it looks like. (not 2 weeks from now from Kodak) Nowadays, I'm finally getting those morning/evening shots that have such beautiful light.
__________________
Dennis

I Foam Therefore I Am.

My pix on RailPics:

I am on Flickr as well:

"Dennis is such a God, he could do that with a camera obscura and some homemade acetate." Holloran Grade

"To me it looks drawn in in Paintshop. It looks like a puddle of orange on the sky." SFO777
Dennis A. Livesey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:33 PM   #14
ken45
LA&SL Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 700
Default

I'd recommend practicing taking the glint shots before the train even gets there, using the sides of the rails as guides for the exposure since they glint too. With experience, you'll get to the point where all you'll have to do is look at a glint situation and know how to nail the shot.
__________________
My Railpictures Shots http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=2561
ken45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:44 PM   #15
Carl Becker
Senior Member
 
Carl Becker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,218
Default

Try a glint shot on a parked train to start with if you can. Play around with your exposure and ISO settings until you get it how you want.

Personally, I don't think true "glint" shots turned to B&W are interesting at all. It just makes it look like another backlit shot with the saturation removed.

A glint shot I have in the database:

Image © Carl Becker
PhotoID: 199662
Photograph © Carl Becker


This train was parked at the time, and I took multiple photos until I got it right. That was about ~20 minutes until sunset, iirc.

~Carl Becker
Carl Becker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 03:59 PM   #16
River Rails Photography
Banned
 
River Rails Photography's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 404
Send a message via AIM to River Rails Photography
Default

Although I have no accepted glint shots, I have found that slightly underexposing the shot creates more of a mood, a kind of feeling that makes it warmer, slightly more interesting. It lets the sky become more of a dominant element, and the train a kind of afterthought, something that further enhances the scene. That's my opinion / personal preference, though.


Oh, and Carl, that is a very nice photograph.
River Rails Photography is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:21 PM   #17
Dennis A. Livesey
Senior Member
 
Dennis A. Livesey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,986
Thumbs up

Carl made the excellent suggestion of shooting a parked train. (So good, I'll have to try it myself!) It's a super shot Carl. It would be great in a calender, an annual report or a magazine layout.

See how the front of the locomotive is dark? See how the angle of the sun is the complimentary angle from where Carl was standing and is a beautiful gold color? See how the locomotive and the train is silhouetted? That makes a glint shot for me.

Glint does work in B&W in my thinking back on the work of Richard Steinheimer and other's in the 1960's. However, color does add an extra wow factor.
__________________
Dennis

I Foam Therefore I Am.

My pix on RailPics:

I am on Flickr as well:

"Dennis is such a God, he could do that with a camera obscura and some homemade acetate." Holloran Grade

"To me it looks drawn in in Paintshop. It looks like a puddle of orange on the sky." SFO777
Dennis A. Livesey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:43 PM   #18
Carl Becker
Senior Member
 
Carl Becker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,218
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis A. Livesey
Carl made the excellent suggestion of shooting a parked train. (So good, I'll have to try it myself!) It's a super shot Carl. It would be great in a calender, an annual report or a magazine layout.
Thanks, Dennis.

Quote:
See how the front of the locomotive is dark? See how the angle of the sun is the complimentary angle from where Carl was standing and is a beautiful gold color? See how the locomotive and the train is silhouetted? That makes a glint shot for me.
I went and found my other glint shot in the DB, which was a moving train. This was sometime last summer before the other one:

Image © Carl Becker
PhotoID: 189870
Photograph © Carl Becker


One thing you mentioned that I do really try to concentrate on is shooting the train at the generally same angle the sun will reflect at. There's just that little sweet spot.

Quote:
Glint does work in B&W in my thinking back on the work of Richard Steinheimer and other's in the 1960's. However, color does add an extra wow factor.
Agreed 100%.
Carl Becker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 04:58 PM   #19
Dennis A. Livesey
Senior Member
 
Dennis A. Livesey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,986
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Becker

One thing you mentioned that I do really try to concentrate on is shooting the train at the generally same angle the sun will reflect at. There's just that little sweet spot.
In my training as a photographer way back in the day, I was taught "the angle of incidence (the light source) equals the angle of reflectance." (what the lens sees) Knowing how complimentary angles work has helped me solve many a problem when lighting in a studio or finding, then eliminating unwanted reflections.
__________________
Dennis

I Foam Therefore I Am.

My pix on RailPics:

I am on Flickr as well:

"Dennis is such a God, he could do that with a camera obscura and some homemade acetate." Holloran Grade

"To me it looks drawn in in Paintshop. It looks like a puddle of orange on the sky." SFO777
Dennis A. Livesey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:31 PM   #20
rpalmer
RailPictures.net Crew
 
rpalmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Conshohocken, PA : NS Harrisburg Line MP 14
Posts: 148
Default

In my opinion, glint shots are like silhouette shots. When done right, both are visually appealing because of the contrast between the light/dark areas of the train and the background. Notice how most of the examples given show a train against a plain sky. In the Chicago examples, there's a distracting clutter of trees, wires & signals behind the train. It's gonna be tough to get something that works with a cluttered background like that.
My only railpictures glint shot:

Image © Robert Palmer
PhotoID: 123267
Photograph © Robert Palmer
__________________
Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Click Here to view my photos at JetPhotos.Net!

Last edited by rpalmer; 08-06-2008 at 10:35 PM.
rpalmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 02:09 AM   #21
fullreversal
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 34
Send a message via AIM to fullreversal Send a message via Yahoo to fullreversal
Default

Thanks for the comments guys, I figured that shot would generate some talk. I wasn't going to send it in but then when I looked at it from a greyscale perspective it looked really good to me. A little sharpening, and done.

I agree, the power is right out bland, but the terrain is highly acceptable. I posted several others up from that trip, but it seems that the outside-the-box shots made the cut, including the one in the shops at Livingston.
fullreversal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:46 AM   #22
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fullreversal
Thanks for the comments guys, I figured that shot would generate some talk. I wasn't going to send it in but then when I looked at it from a greyscale perspective it looked really good to me. A little sharpening, and done.

I agree, the power is right out bland, but the terrain is highly acceptable. I posted several others up from that trip, but it seems that the outside-the-box shots made the cut, including the one in the shops at Livingston.
Umm, did I miss something? Who are you, what/where is "that shot," and where are the "several others"? You haven't posted under this ID since May.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 02:31 PM   #23
quiksmith10
Senior Member
 
quiksmith10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norman, OK / Frederick, MD
Posts: 269
Send a message via AIM to quiksmith10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Umm, did I miss something? Who are you, what/where is "that shot," and where are the "several others"? You haven't posted under this ID since May.
I believe that is Darrell Krueger commenting on his shot that Chicago Railfan posted in the first post.
__________________
Brandon Smith

Click here to view my photos at Railpictures.net!

Photography Portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/53118039@N05/
quiksmith10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 03:11 PM   #24
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksmith10
I believe that is Darrell Krueger commenting on his shot that Chicago Railfan posted in the first post.
Thanks, Brandon.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.