Old 01-24-2007, 11:27 PM   #1
socalrailfan
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Default I'm confused, nothing new there

Is it me or what? This photo get's approved:

Image © Richard Hart
PhotoID: 172748
Photograph © Richard Hart


But then this one doesn't, at least mine featured a train and was also unique. Flame away!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=330454
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:41 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrailfan
Is it me or what? This photo get's approved:

Image © Richard Hart
PhotoID: 172748
Photograph © Richard Hart


But then this one doesn't, at least mine featured a train and was also unique. Flame away!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=330454
Hmmm, the first thing I have to make clear is that these two photos are completely different and are therefore seen definitely. I like both photos. Rich's shot shows a part of railraoding which is often over looked and thought to be in the past...hobos. Those are in fact hobo "signatures" as he clearly poitned out. He also makes excellent use of the strong late evening light with the shadows and B&W.

I like your shot better, Dave. Pure and simple. I am ALL for creativity and your photo shows an excellent eye to catch such a small detail that 99% of people would not. The photo also contains excellent lighting and compostion including the distant signal and you tastefully included the BNSF on the side when many others would chop it in half or something. Of course the quality isn't poor and it really isn't blurry, but to someone who doesn't read the caption (what are they there for then?!) they wouldn't see it that way. All-in-all I think both shots should have been accepted. I'm actually quite suprised/disappointed that yours wasn't when there has been such a shift to more artsy and "outside-of-the-box" acceptances. You try an appeal?
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:43 AM   #3
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Thanks Andrew, no appeal yet just feeling people out. Initially I was just looking at these two from the bad motive side.

When I first took the shot I didn't notice the heat waves until I edited it and I though "That is really bizarre and intriguing at the same time". I just don't see the bad motive side.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:04 AM   #4
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You have my vote for an appeal. The heat distortion is incredible and is not something you would normally see, at least to that dramatic of an effect. In my opinion, is stands a good chance of getting in.

As far as Richard's photo goes, I really like that one too. But I agree with Andrew that they are two completely different shots. It's tough to compare rejections sometimes; I've had photos rejected before only to find one thatís very similar accepted a week later. Different screeners have different standards I guess, but that's why they have appeals.

To me, the 'bad motive' rejection has always been a bit confusing. It often leaves me wondering if anything can be done to resubmit a photo, or if it's best left in the personal collection. This is particularly true for photos that are clearly railroad related.

Best of luck on an appeal if that's what you decide.

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Old 01-25-2007, 01:24 AM   #5
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I think I'm with the screeners on this one. But the problem with these "creative" images is that beauty is totally in the eye of the beholder. My opinion is worth only as much as the next guy's.

I like the one that got accepted, or at least like it enough to see why it got accepted. It's a good artsy fartsy B&W image. The composition is reasonably pleasing (I don't like the grab irons being cut off), and the graffity is interesting.

There are a number of elements in your picture that I really like, the heat waves are an interesting effect. But the sharp rails bug me, and the composition just doesn't work for me. But that's only my opinion, and I could easily be in the minority.

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Old 01-25-2007, 01:28 AM   #6
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Just to clarify this wasn't manipulated at all and I was only a few hundred feet from the engine in the photo. I'll probably end up appealing it, I think it has some unusual and not negative aspects to photography/railroading. Hmm, better remember that one for the appeal!
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:47 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrailfan
Just to clarify this wasn't manipulated at all and I was only a few hundred feet from the engine in the photo. I'll probably end up appealing it, I think it has some unusual and not negative aspects to photography/railroading. Hmm, better remember that one for the appeal!
While that is true, its sad because it is so easy to manipulate, and some people can do it so well it can't be detected by the toughest of screeners.

I'm going to contradict myself here, but I hope it gets in because I like oringinality, but as far as historical standards of RP.net it sides with the screeners.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:31 AM   #8
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Well CS2 will document everything that is done to an image after opening and before saving it. Look at this one I posted, problem is is that it shows me running an action twice which I didn't so maybe it didn't show the delete history state I did, but it'll show any manipulation that's done.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:31 AM   #9
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Definitely appeal, make the reason clear when you do, good luck.
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Old 01-25-2007, 08:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Definitely appeal, make the reason clear when you do, good luck.
Agreed, but...

Just a point - you start your remark in the 'Remarks' box on the image, and I quote:

"A strange shot."

Removing this and going straight into the hot wind and exhaust explanation might be a positive move?

btw - that's a very impressionistic background - Monet would have been proud!

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Old 01-25-2007, 12:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrailfan
Is it me or what? This photo get's approved:

Image © Richard Hart
PhotoID: 172748
Photograph © Richard Hart

It appears that pic was photoshopped (scene content changed) before it was submitted..
the shadows arent quite right in several places..
most obvious with the "MOD F-1083" lettering..
the white text is on top of the shadow!

and in some places the shadows have a crisp edge,
and in other places they have a fuzzy edge.


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Old 01-25-2007, 12:46 PM   #12
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I've never been a fan of the arguement that because one shot got in, that another entirely different shot should then get in. People who are nowhere near as good a shooter as you, Dave, use it when trying to justify their own subpar shot. So I don't think calling out Rich Hart's photography is really appropiate in this case, since as Andrew pointed out, neither shot have a thing to do with the other.

In my opinion, your shot should not have gotten in just because it looks too funky. There's just something about it not right. I think if the exhaust had not covered the entire locomotive, then maybe I'd have a different opinion. You're also faced with the going away shot suyndrome, too, I think. You have so many really cool shots on RP, that I'd let this one go.


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Old 01-25-2007, 02:39 PM   #13
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I (TYPO) wasn't knocking the other guys photo I just using in relation to being bad motive is all.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:48 PM   #14
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Default Motive

I think here 'Bad Motive' means 'I don't understand the picture' or 'it doesn't work for me'. It's an unsual idea but the haze in front of the loco is not, to me anyway, obviously haze. It looks almost like one of those art-farty filters that come bundled in Photoshop. I would respectfully suggest it would work much better if there was some foreground interest that was clear of haze - a m-o-w gang, a signal, or something - to emphasize that it's heat-haze distortion we are looking at.
I like the shot, but honestly if I was a screener I don't know if I'd let it in.
I don't really think comparison with the other shot is valid as the two approaches are so different.

Keep the imaginitive shots coming - don't be put off if this gets rejected on appeal.

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Old 01-25-2007, 04:49 PM   #15
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I have to agree with Joe, this thread is in very poor taste. You're trying to piggy-back your sub-par photo into the database on a shot you think to be of lesser photographic merit.... very unprofessional and rude.
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottychaos
It appears that pic was photoshopped (scene content changed) before it was submitted..
the shadows arent quite right in several places..
most obvious with the "MOD F-1083" lettering..
the white text is on top of the shadow!

and in some places the shadows have a crisp edge,
and in other places they have a fuzzy edge.


Scot
Guess it's time for me to step in... the B&W shot is mine and I can assure you, it was not manipulated. I could never do that in good conscience, and the screeners are good enough to pick stuff up like this right away anyway.

This was shot with my Sony P&S before I got the 30D. I have a Photoshop action I downloaded that does the B&W conversion, then I adjust curves, contrast, etc. and add an unsharp mask setting that makes the B&W jump. That's it... same as you'd do in a darkroom anyway.

I would've appreciated a PM in reference to this rather than manipulation being called out in public.

****

As for having or not having a train in it, the NS Buffalo line is a crap shoot for trains and I look for things to shoot instead of going crazy waiting around... I can't sit for long, and I'm trying for the unusual rather than 'loco-centric' shots exclusively.

As for Dave's shot, I think it's a winner for the impressionistic effect. Maybe they didn't like the going away angle but that might've been the only time he could get the effect. Should have been accepted on that alone!

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Old 01-25-2007, 11:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainmonster
I have a Photoshop action I downloaded that does the B&W conversion, then I adjust curves, contrast, etc. and add an unsharp mask setting that makes the B&W jump.
I would appreciate learning more about this action - can you provide a link or a name?
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Old 01-26-2007, 12:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdirelan87
I have to agree with Joe, this thread is in very poor taste. You're trying to piggy-back your sub-par photo into the database on a shot you think to be of lesser photographic merit.... very unprofessional and rude.
No what's rude is your comments to me! I have not once knocked the photo, the comparision has to do with "bad motives" (why is one not compared to another, only for comparison) and if you don't understand that please move on, thank you. A forum is designed to get peoples thoughts and that's what I'm doing.

Anyways, I was in the same spot today and took a similar shot. But we didn't have the wind today, but I did include the signal tower lit up.

goremirebob, no haze, don't think we've had any of that in over a month out here. we should count our blessings. I think the haze you see is just the heat distortion from the exhausts.

Well I didn't make this thread to start any flame wars and do value most of your opinions!
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:36 AM   #19
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This sounds like a thread Andrew Robb would start. I dunno Dave, the heat distortion is pretty cool but I don't like the shot very much.

I don't see whats wrong with the graffiti shot tho, I think its pretty cool. I'm all for employee monikers, whenever a freight train passes by me I keep an eye out for cool ones.

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Old 01-26-2007, 01:55 AM   #20
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Dave has started a new thread for ongoing discussion of graffiti art and the like.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I would appreciate learning more about this action - can you provide a link or a name?
http://www.epaperpress.com/psphoto/index.html
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:14 AM   #22
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thanks for the link
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:16 AM   #23
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JRMDC, have some really good actions I can send you I've collected over time, really good B&W ones.
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Old 01-26-2007, 11:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I would appreciate learning more about this action - can you provide a link or a name?
Here's my favorte site for Actions. Some very good b/w converters here.

http://www.atncentral.com/download.htm

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Old 01-26-2007, 12:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdirelan87
I have to agree with Joe, this thread is in very poor taste. You're trying to piggy-back your sub-par photo into the database on a shot you think to be of lesser photographic merit.... very unprofessional and rude.
Just to be clear, I don't think the thread itself was in poor taste, just comparing two entirely different shots. I also don't think Dave meant anything bad toward Richard Hart in doing this either, although in my first post, I may not have been clear enough.

Now the guy who said that Hart mainpulated his shot was just plain bad.

Dave, you have a great eye and many, many great shots on this site. I will kill for your luck in some of them, but also your ability to get what you see to work right for you. That's why if I were you, I would not waste any time or thought on this one shot of yours.

Hope I cleared myself up somewhat.


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