Using B&W to rescue poor lighting

[Heymon]

Greetings,

I was victimized recently by a high cloud that followed me and the front of this train for several miles. Normally, I would not try to submit this, but I tried going black and white and thought the image looked good. My first two submissions were backlit rejections that I found somewhat curious, and now I got the poor lighting/cloudy rejection, which is quite understandable.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...1&key=44548114

I can accept the rejection, but my question is regarding the use of black and white in situations like this. I initially tried the black and white based on what I've read here, so I was curious what others thought about this shot and perhaps some thoughts on properly using black and white to "save" shots that might not otherwise work.

Thanks,
Andre

[Mike B.]

B&W should not be used to 'save' a shot. If a shot looks bad in color, it should look bad in B&W.

A cloud followed a train? Welcome to railfanning.

[travsirocz]

You should adjust the color channels seperately when converting to b+w.

[travsirocz]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

B&W should not be used to 'save' a shot. If a shot looks bad in color, it should look bad in B&W.

.

I shoot many shots knowing that it will be used as black and white and knowing that they will not work in color. Usually backlit and/or high contrast.

[JRMDC]

Originally Posted by travsirocz

I shoot many shots knowing that it will be used as black and white and knowing that they will not work in color. Usually backlit and/or high contrast.

Your comment does not completely contradict Mike, in good part it raises a separate point. Aside from the creative, anticipated uses of BW, certainly there are any number of instances where people try to save a shot with BW. And for that matter, any number of recommendations in this forum to try to do so. (I just did it a few days ago with a shot by Charles, but at least it wasn't a sky issue, it was an odd coloring issue, so I would say it was appropriate rather than a cop out.)

[Freericks]

Originally Posted by JRMDC

Your comment does not completely contradict Mike, in good part it raises a separate point. Aside from the creative, anticipated uses of BW, certainly there are any number of instances where people try to save a shot with BW. And for that matter, any number of recommendations in this forum to try to do so. (I just did it a few days ago with a shot by Charles, but at least it wasn't a sky issue, it was an odd coloring issue, so I would say it was appropriate rather than a cop out.)

You may have tried, but I didn't accept...

Actually, the image in question was not one that I personally liked in BW, so I didn't try it. (Nothing against J's recommendation, just not something I was personally interested in, so I didn't want to go that route.)

[travsirocz]

Originally Posted by JRMDC

Your comment does not completely contradict Mike, in good part it raises a separate point. Aside from the creative, anticipated uses of BW, certainly there are any number of instances where people try to save a shot with BW. And for that matter, any number of recommendations in this forum to try to do so. (I just did it a few days ago with a shot by Charles, but at least it wasn't a sky issue, it was an odd coloring issue, so I would say it was appropriate rather than a cop out.)

I wasn't trying to, but I'm glad you pointed it out.

A bad color shot isn't a good black and white, and a good black and white shot isn't always a good color shot.

[JRMDC]

I'll fess up. Of my (few) BWs, this is the one that had a "rescue" element in the decision process.

PhotoID: 181288 Photograph © Janusz Mrozek

I will always think of it as an oddball in my collection; I keep it in large part because it was a really cool setting (one no longer accessible to me), although this was the best I could do with it. (Well, I have one I think is better, but RP vehemently disagrees! )

[trainboysd40]

I use B+W to rescue bad colours, not bad lighting.
The first shot, you were in an amazingly scenic area, couldn't you do anything more than a wedgie?

[Mike B.]

Originally Posted by trainboysd40

I use B+W to rescue bad colours, not bad lighting.
The first shot, you were in an amazingly scenic area, couldn't you do anything more than a wedgie?

All the scenery is in the background and it looks like where he is it's just flat. So, the best thing to do IMO is to do a zoom shot to bring out the background which is what he sort of did.

Doesn't bad light cause bad colors?

[Ween]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

All the scenery is in the background and it looks like where he is it's just flat. So, the best thing to do IMO is to do a zoom shot to bring out the background which is what he sort of did.

Yep:

PhotoID: 178055 Photograph © Chris Paulhamus

[JRMDC]

Originally Posted by Ween

Yep:

Nothing a little clockwise rotation won't fix, even almost two years later.

[Ween]

Originally Posted by JRMDC

Nothing a little clockwise rotation won't fix, even almost two years later.

Probably, but there are so many things that are leaning opposite to one another that it would still look crooked even if leveled...

BTW...if I do edit and re-submit, people will wonder what the heck you're talking about!

[milwman]

Harsh side light as in Ween's shot do make the best B&W, Dark to light. Flat light is the hardest to make look good. I would go heavy on the RED slider in Levels and see if that will help? To much mid tone across the photo.

[Slopes09]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

Doesn't bad light cause bad colors?

Usually, but not always.

PhotoID: 140029 Photograph © Mike W.

On this shot (one of my first few), the camera screwed up the exposure on Aperture priority (I hadn't moved over to full manual yet) and the colors came out really weird. I couldn't seem to fix the colors, despite my best efforts. The solution: B&W.

[cblaz]

Andre,

Your shot also brings out one of my pet peeves. BNSF's paint scheme, especially the H1 and H2 versions, do not look good in black and white. The colors and the amount of lines are not visually appealing at all. The cigar band logo on the nose gets lost in the muddy gray and does not pop like it does in color.

PhotoID: 190083 Photograph © John Ryan

This is probably one of the best black and white BNSF shots in the database (no surprise noting who the photographer is), but it has a dramatic sky and scenery to add to it. Even still, the engine still looks drab and distracting.

The newest scheme, with the swoosh, is a little better, as seen here in Thomas Johnson's shot:

PhotoID: 246911 Photograph © Thomas Johnson

The BNSF logo on the front is more defined in the new scheme and therefore stands out more.

I'm sure someone will find a knockout BNSF black and white shot now, but for now, I stand by my statement (until I'm forced to edit this post later).

- Chris

[Slopes09]

Originally Posted by cblaz

Andre,

Your shot also brings out one of my pet peeves. BNSF's paint scheme, especially the H1 and H2 versions, do not look good in black and white. The colors and the amount of lines are not visually appealing at all. The cigar band logo on the nose gets lost in the muddy gray and does not pop like it does in color.



This is probably one of the best black and white BNSF shots in the database (no surprise noting who the photographer is), but it has a dramatic sky and scenery to add to it. Even still, the engine still looks drab and distracting.

The newest scheme, with the swoosh, is a little better, as seen here in Thomas Johnson's shot:



The BNSF logo on the front is more defined in the new scheme and therefore stands out more.

I'm sure someone will find a knockout BNSF black and white shot now, but for now, I stand by my statement (until I'm forced to edit this post later).

- Chris

I think it depends on what color filter you run it through. I usually run my B&W pictures through a red filter, though I used to shoot with an orange filter on my camera, which also produces some pretty interesting BNSF colors. Personally, I always thought it was cool that the orange turned to almost a white under a filter.

Now, if you want to talk about boring in B&W, look at Phase V Amtrak engine under cloudy skies (it "pops" a little better in the sunlight):

PhotoID: 240318 Photograph © Mike W.

[Andrew Blaszczyk (2)]

Originally Posted by cblaz

I'm sure someone will find a knockout BNSF black and white shot now, but for now, I stand by my statement (until I'm forced to edit this post later).

Other than some of Martin Burwash's shots, John's photo is the only one that I could think of where B&W with the BNSF scheme works. This one of Martin's stood out to me but still I'm dying to see it in color:

PhotoID: Photograph ©

B&W should not be used to "save" shots...if you didn't see or think of the shot in B&W originally, there's a good chance it will not work. Think any BNSF or UP photos.

Now, most people use B&W to "save" backlit shots because they tend to pop because of the lighting. Cloudy is not the same as backlit.

Can there be surprises? Sure. Sometimes playing around with a shot in B&W will yield something cool and unexpected. Greyscale is not B&W; there is no contrast.

[Slopes09]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)

Can there be surprises? Sure. Sometimes playing around with a shot in B&W will yield something cool and unexpected. Greyscale is not B&W; there is no contrast.

Agreed on both points. As of late, I mostly use the channel mixer to do B&W conversions.

[travsirocz]

Not a great shot let alone a good black and white shot but shadows can help create some contrast.

PhotoID: 217702 Photograph © Travis Dewitz

[WisconsinCentral]

While I sometimes I save shots by using B&W, I think that most of them come out looking just fine, even if I did "save" the shot. Like this one, which I would have been screwed if I kept the color.

PhotoID: 193117 Photograph © Alec Holmes

Alec

[Cinderpath]

True B&W, is not a replacement for bad lighting. In fact B&W requires a different kind of light than that of lighting for color to make a successful B&W photo. Tonality, contrast, shadows and depth, usually play a critical roll in making a successful B&W image, where this is not always the case with color.

[ottergoose]

Texture and contrast really shine with black and white.

My favorite contrasty shot:

PhotoID: Photograph ©

Texture:

PhotoID: Photograph ©

Saving a shot from terrible, terrible light:

PhotoID: Photograph ©

None of those shots, with the possible exception of the last, would work as well in color.

Also, BNSF orange aggravates the hell out of me - it's very, very, very sensitive to any saturation adjustments.

[Rich K]

This one started out as color and it looked pretty good, but once I saw it on my computer screen I felt compelled to do it in B&W. The white snow without a single footprint, the clouds, and the stark bare trees combined with the older standard cab locomotive on the point made the shot IMO. It wasn't that I wanted or needed to save the shot, but rather the scene dictated the choice to lose the color.

PhotoID: 233807 Photograph © Rich Kaminsky

[Mike B.]

That's some funky looking black!

Also, I doubt it would get accepted in color since the whole nose isn't lit and it's not a scenic shot by any means.