Old 03-26-2006, 07:01 PM   #1
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Hey everyone, not complaining about the rejection, just asking for any suggestions or advice on ways to improve this photo. It was rejected for foreground clutter, which I am assuming is the Depot platform. Reject Click here
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Old 03-26-2006, 07:15 PM   #2
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Hey, Bart;

I almost went to Spencer yesterday. It's been close to nine months or more since I've been, but I decided to hit the South Carolina Central instead. Maybe one Saturday we'll run into one another shooting the 2601. As for the shot, I don't the foreground clutter should have gotten this one canned esp. since it is rail related. I mean, it is a loading platform afterall! I've never done this, but I wonder how receptive the guys there would have been to a polite request to get to the other side of the tracks and shot. It would still obviously be a train at a platform and as a plus, you would be shooting from the sunny side of the tracks. The only other concern I see is that the shot is leaning just a little to the left, nothing a 1% or less rotation would not take care of.


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Old 03-26-2006, 07:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
Hey, Bart;

I almost went to Spencer yesterday. It's been close to nine months or more since I've been, but I decided to hit the South Carolina Central instead. Maybe one Saturday we'll run into one another shooting the 2601. As for the shot, I don't the foreground clutter should have gotten this one canned esp. since it is rail related. I mean, it is a loading platform afterall! I've never done this, but I wonder how receptive the guys there would have been to a polite request to get to the other side of the tracks and shot. It would still obviously be a train at a platform and as a plus, you would be shooting from the sunny side of the tracks. The only other concern I see is that the shot is leaning just a little to the left, nothing a 1% or less rotation would not take care of.


Joe
Hey Joe,
I went up there on a whim yesterday, they had the F unit out as well testing it, new paint job and unlettered! I dunno about the other side of the tracks for pics, they dont seem receptive to it. I was trying to highlight the semaphore and the design of the old depot with 2601 sitting there. I thought it made for a nice photo. Oh well hehe.
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:50 PM   #4
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GREAT SHOT! Sheesh I wonder about the screeners (MORE OFTEN THAN NOT! LOL). It isn't like the site is oversaturated with GP30 Units or Southern Units or anything! What kind of slide scanner do you use (assuming this was a slide) Im sure that is their reason for rejection.Yhey seem to want the whole locomotive with nothing obstructingit. I can see their point IF this was your everyday submission of BNSF GEVO or UP SD70 but it isn't, Heck even the boy on the platform gives it character! Maybe the screeners are starting to treat ALL of the pictures the same! (Yeah right!)
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Old 03-27-2006, 04:40 PM   #5
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Image © Jason B. Cagle
PhotoID: 138422
Photograph © Jason B. Cagle


Not sure if this one was sent in before the rejected one, but the train made it in the database. BTW, I think this one needs rotated CCW...
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Old 03-27-2006, 11:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Image © Jason B. Cagle
PhotoID: 138422
Photograph © Jason B. Cagle


Not sure if this one was sent in before the rejected one, but the train made it in the database. BTW, I think this one needs rotated CCW...

Ween,
That is a buddy of mines pic that got accepted. Both are great shots. Basically the EXACT same photo, minus the color vs B&W. I emailed Admin asking for an explanation, but none given, no surprise there. Im about done with this site. Thanks for your comments Brian, I refuse to shoot Dash 9's and all the other assorted garbage that is on todays mainlines. The combination of the kid on the platform, the old depot roof, the Semaphore, and the vintage GP30 in CLASSIC Southern paint make for a great photo regardless of the damn "foreground clutter" (the PLATFORM).

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Old 03-28-2006, 12:13 AM   #7
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Bart, you make a valid point with this argument. RP has majorly screwed up with this one. Not picking on either photo, but if the same shots are uploaded and the first one gets the boot for "foreground clutter" (which is BS), then the other should too. Like you, I fail to see the so called "foreground clutter." It's classic southern power next to a classic Southern depot. None of it's distracting in my opinion. This shot is much more interesting than the endless uploads of lame wedge shots that so easily find themselves in the database. The only thing that would've made the shot better is if 2601 was running the correct way.

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Old 03-28-2006, 12:28 AM   #8
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Fellas:

The screeners, like it or believe it or not, are individuals. They do not share a brain. Each screener's tastes in what he likes are unique only to that screener. In other words, what one screener likes, the next one might not. I'm willing to bet these two shots were viewed by different screeners. And they each saw something different.

The way photography, screening, and the way the human brain's perceptions of likes and dislikes come together cannot be boiled down to a single set of standards. In other words, there is no way, noooo way, to have all the screener's agree 100% on all of the photos uploaded to this site. That's just the way it works. That's how humans work, like it or not.

If you can't understand that or are unwilling to understand that, then by all means leave. If you're willing to accept this known error in the human process, then keep trying...
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Old 03-28-2006, 01:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Fellas:

The screeners, like it or believe it or not, are individuals. They do not share a brain. Each screener's tastes in what he likes are unique only to that screener. In other words, what one screener likes, the next one might not. I'm willing to bet these two shots were viewed by different screeners. And they each saw something different.

The way photography, screening, and the way the human brain's perceptions of likes and dislikes come together cannot be boiled down to a single set of standards. In other words, there is no way, noooo way, to have all the screener's agree 100% on all of the photos uploaded to this site. That's just the way it works. That's how humans work, like it or not.

If you can't understand that or are unwilling to understand that, then by all means leave. If you're willing to accept this known error in the human process, then keep trying...
Ween,
Point taken. Both photos are almost identical however. Everyones tastes are different I understand. I just wish things were a little bit more consistent. IMO RP used to have consistent screening but this one blows my mind away. My shot was also rejected on appeal. Oh well, its for the birds. It is what it is. At least something different got accepted (The GP30 in a VERY slightly different form)

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Old 03-28-2006, 01:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
I just wish things were a little bit more consistent.
I wish I had a million bucks. But like my grandfather used to say, "Crap in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first."

Nothing the admin/screeners do can please all the people all of the time. If that's your expectation, it's unrealistic and you're going to be disappointed.

The best thing you can do is to let it go. Harboring ill feelings towards this site will get you nowhere. It may get you a sympathetic ear from others who have been 'wronged,' but what is a sympathetic ear without the s-y-m...
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Old 03-28-2006, 01:38 AM   #11
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It's been fun gang! See ya trackside! If anyone wants to discuss or railfan in the Carolinas email me at bartdavis28211@yahoo.com
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:56 AM   #12
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Bart:

First of all, let me say that your image should have been accepted. I am not sure where the ball was dropped on our end that made that happen, but it was (and is) worthy of being in the database. I see your email sitting in my inbox (sent last night at 830pm) asking for an explanation and believe it or not, I was going to reply to you tonight. The past few days have been busy here and that creates backlog of emails from time to time. Unfortunately, before I got the chance to reply, I see your latest email requesting the deletion of your photos. I wish you had been a little more patient as I had ever intention of apologizing for our error. Please check your email for a follow up to what I have posted here.

As a note to everyone else, if you guys email us please be aware that you may not get a response right away. There are only so many things we can do in a day and sometimes it may take a few days for us to get back to you. Please don't let being impatient make you jump to a decision that might be premature.

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Old 03-28-2006, 06:59 PM   #13
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Bart and others make good points,

Some of the same points that I've posted in my threads on here and don't think they're unreasonable to hope for. I will use Bart's quote.......

"Ween,
Point taken. Both photos are almost identical however. Everyones tastes are different I understand. I just wish things were a little bit more consistent."

The biggest hope I have is a little more consistency as it would help with assuming so much and we all know assumptions usually leads to many wrong thoughts . I will use a photo I had rejected and was going to let go with no problem but will suffice to show one point I have and one that has been brought up here several times.

In this photo I'm trying to get away from the everyday shots and add some variety to the subject matter. Using the detector to frame the engine as it broke through the plain with the mile marker and RR items included. The rejection is there so...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=228967

I went and assumed that the dead spots needed to be cropped out and did so seeing it was a cropping issue at first....which lead to this shot..

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=229439

Now it's a "foreground clutter issue" . So, what gives? Along with this point I will add many times when I'm not sure what to think given multiple rejection reasons, I will ASK in the comment box what exactly they are looking for and usually get no response and that leads to more uncertainty. Chris or Ween (seeing you seem to have an inside track on things), if you're reading this I have a question seeing the amount of varied tastes out there...When a shot gets rejected, after a couple of appeals does it automatically go in front of another set of eyes for viewing and consideration? TIA

Give me constructive criticism and feedback and I'm willing to learn and adjust, but when you get nothing and keep taking stabs at what YOUR likes are can lead to some tension . Willing to find out more, I actually sent an email to the administration early on after joining to find out a few things and never got a response (weeks ago) and do realize everyone is busy so I never heckled them on it, but just being open about my experience having joined this year. Figured my "newbie" status may've something to do with it seeing I have to assume having no written response in front of me .

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill here as the good information, great site to view and share RR thoughts, and willingness of the staff to dedicate what has to be a great deal of time is much appreciated by this member, just trying help clear the air and maybe it will help someone.

Happy chasing and shooting, Rich
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:52 PM   #14
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Bigiron, as far as your shot goes the biggest thing I see wrong with it is the cross buck signal. to me (my opinion) it is VERY distracting (to me) and doesn't really add anything to the picture. I too wish that the screeners would add a comment or two in their reason for rejections as to what they would do to help it get accepted. Bad cropping is WAY too broad of a reason.
maybe a simple "Bad cropping take a little more off of the left side (right side, top bottom)
My BIGGEST BITCH is the "Backlit or not enough light on the nose! when your taking a shot from the side! I have gotten a few of these lately
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:48 PM   #15
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To err is only human. Issue has been resolved. Thank you Chris.

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Old 03-29-2006, 01:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
I will ASK in the comment box what exactly they are looking for and usually get no response and that leads to more uncertainty...Give me constructive criticism and feedback and I'm willing to learn and adjust, but when you get nothing and keep taking stabs at what YOUR likes are can lead to some tension . Willing to find out more, I actually sent an email to the administration early on after joining to find out a few things and never got a response (weeks ago) and do realize everyone is busy so I never heckled them on it, but just being open about my experience having joined this year. Figured my "newbie" status may've something to do with it seeing I have to assume having no written response in front of me .
I am not speaking for the admin, but just offering up my opinion as I have no insight as to how things actually work behind the scenes. However, I can offer my insights since I've been 'around' a while.

First up, the screeners/admin owe you nothing. No explanation, no personal e-mails to tell you how to make your photography better, nothing. They are footing the bills and we are paying nothing to use their product. I would not expect a magazine to take time to explain to me why my photo was rejected, how I can make it better, or explain to me the rationale behind their standards and decision making. Why would you expect it here?

Now, onto numbers. I thought I remember the admin posting that they see several HUNDRED THOUSAND visitors per day. Assuming that the average daily number is 250,000, if only 1% of those vistors submit photos at some point in time, that's 2,500 people. 2,500!! Now realize that this site only has 4 photo screeners. Now imagine if only 10% of those 2,500 (probably a conservative number, BTW) write e-mails to the admin/screeners, ask questions in the upload Comments section, or Private Messages them here in the Forums, that's 250 individual inqueries that need personal attention. And that's divided by only 4 people (sometimes only 2, as those two are the admin).

Factor in that these admin/screeners still have to screen hundreds of photos a day and actually have a life outside of RP.net, you can see why there's a lack of 'personal attention' to questions about individual photos or explaining the lack of consistency.

Now, the forums here provide an excellent resource to get feedback on your shots. There are many of us who share our thoughts and provide insight when asked. Use the resources at hand and don't put so much on the admin/screeners...

Again, just my thoughts...take it or leave it...
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Old 03-29-2006, 10:47 PM   #17
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ween, well put. Everyone should know that everyone else is only human, who isn't? People can only handle so much pressure till we implode and go berzerk. Hopefully from all this everyone will have more understanding what kind of pressures there are with such a great website that is so open to the public (how do you think the governement heads feel when they are trying to run a country that is supposedly by people's choice? but that's a different issue on a different forum).

Just as anything this open and public, I'm sure the screeners and admin could use a little help to lighten their load one way or the other, even if it means not harping on them so much about petty issues like why MY (the best shot that was ever taken in the whole world) photo was rejected for one reason or the other.
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:28 PM   #18
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Thanks gang, issue has been handled. No need to beat a dead horse.
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:59 AM   #19
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Alright, its becoming clear that some sort of solution is needed here, since its becoming a common problem. I will put forth a suggestion, and perhaps Chris or another screener could tell us the possibility of such an idea, and others can chime in if they have any ways to make this idea better, or have one of their own. Here it goes:

Since the common problem we have here is different screeners rejecting photos for different reasons, what if when said photo is rejected the first time, have a feature similar to the resubmit feature for said rejection, which would have a link to the previous photo, simply a statement of its previous rejection reason(s), or both. This way, if another screener comes across it, they won't constantly be rejecting it for roundabout reasons, the screeners will be able to see what the other screener thought of it. Just an idea, take it or leave it.
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Old 03-30-2006, 02:38 PM   #20
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I think about the only way you can make that work is to have each and every photo screened by at least 2 screeners before rejection. Effectively, each photo would have to get a minimum two screeners to "accept" it before it would become a permanent part of the database.

In the military it's what we call "two person integrity" this ensures that AT LEAST 2 people concur with the rejection reasons, and/or don't have other reasons why the photo should be rejected. We use TPI for other purposes though, but the concept is plausible here.

The benefit here is you'll have the guys on the admin side of RP giving each other a "reality check" for each photo. On the other side, a contributor will know that it wasn't just one person who ruined their lifelong aspirations of putting a photo on the internet.

The problem is, this is already a manpower intensive job for these guys, so I really don't see anyway for them to effect that type of change, as it will just about double the workload. Unless they were to bring on additional screeners, also not likely.

Another, what I would personally see as a smaller problem is that it will inherently take longer for your photos to get fully screened. As screeners aren't necessarily online together and they are all geographically separated.

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Old 03-30-2006, 03:55 PM   #21
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Another, what I would personally see as a smaller problem is that it will inherently take longer for your photos to get fully screened. As screeners aren't necessarily online together and they are all geographically separated.
This is probably correct. I think JP.et and airliners.net use the two person screening and it takes upwards of a week to know if your shot's rejected or accepted. I would hate to see that long of a wait migrate to RP.net. I like the relatively instantaneous screening as it happens now.
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:00 PM   #22
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True as it maybe, I think it still might improve the overall quality of the database.

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Old 03-30-2006, 04:57 PM   #23
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It's funny how everyone's "suggestions" to make this site better would always end up with the admin and screeners having more work to do. I think they ignored your well written post a page back, Ween.


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Old 03-30-2006, 05:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoydie17
I think about the only way you can make that work is to have each and every photo screened by at least 2 screeners before rejection.
Great idea, Sean! Amazing this issue hasn't been suggested before. Like in my thread rejections such as "Bad Angle" are subjective. What one screener doesn't like another may disagree that it is a bad angle and accept it.

Quote:
Effectively, each photo would have to get a minimum two screeners to "accept" it before it would become a permanent part of the database.
I think it should only take one acceptence to make it into the DB.

The big issue lately has been about [only] wedgies making it and other more creative shots being rejected unless it is a "spectacular" scenic shot or "dramatic" lighting. People who visit this site have different tastes some like wide angle desert/mountain scenes, some like glint shots, some like industrial scenes and some just like standard shots that show well lit power and train. I understand and agree with rejections such as "Underexposed" "Horizon unlevel" and even "Bad cropping" or any other technical rejection reasons. The photo that started this post was rejected for "foreground clutter" which was completely wrong because like was stated by the photographe HE wanted to show the platform, station and semaphore with the classic Geep as a prop not the main focus. Reasons such as "bad motive" are acceptable for photos that are clearly not rail-related. If the photograph states his/her objective in their "remarks" or in the "comment to screener" the photo should then be looked at as being technically well done. Everyone has had photos rejected for all reasons if they have been submitting long enough, myself included, but some have no problem moving on from rejections while others find it more difficult. There have been "Cloudy shots of common power" posted in the forums that are more appealing (again subjective) than those shots that are accepted just because they are fully lit which brings about arguments and complaining. This is the area that people have a problem with consistency. Quality over quantity is a theme of the site but I disagree that a shot should be rejected because it was taken on a cloudy day (if it was exposed properly). Railroads run in all weather situations and there are photographers that either can't wait (work or vacation) and won't wait until a sunny day to get out and shoot because they understand that weather happens and the railroads keep rolling. Everyone, including me, can have their qualms about the site, but shoudln't blatently come into the forums and say "the screening sucks here". If you don't like it LEAVE and make your own site (which people do) or find somewhere else to post your pictures (which are available). They are only human and this is their site, which we don't pay for btw, therefore they have final say on what makes it and doesn't barring good reason.
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Old 03-30-2006, 06:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
It's funny how everyone's "suggestions" to make this site better would always end up with the admin and screeners having more work to do. I think they ignored your well written post a page back, Ween.


Joe

It's about customer service Joe. They have a product, they want people to use said product, they have to make that product with some concessions to the people who they want to have use it.

You don't take a task like this on without expecting ALOT of work. If they don't have enough people to do it, then they need to get volunteers or bring people on to their staff to help. Your "business" has to grow with it's customer base. Economics in action!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
I think it should only take one acceptence to make it into the DB.
I'm confused, in one breath you say the idea is "great", but in the next you say that it should only take one "acceptance"? The idea centers around 2 people looking at the photo and both agreeing that it is up to the site standard.

If it only takes one acceptance, a photo gets in, 2nd screener comes along and says, "OMG, who put that in here?". Now someone gets the always ugly task of telling a photog their photo is about to be removed because, the first screener made a mistake. That is recipe for alot of hate and discontent on both sides of the RP.net fenceline.

With two acceptances, you've got one guy who looks at it, says, "Yep, looks good, thumbs up." and the 2nd screener looks and says, "Well, it should be cropped a little tighter, but otherwise ok." The photo could be rejected with the infamous "bad cropping" rejection for the photog to fix up.

The idea is, it increases the workload on the screeners/admin for the initial screening of a photo, but MAY help mitigate pointless appeals, and even these sometimes pointless debates about "my photo was rejected" in the forums.

Sean
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Last edited by hoydie17; 03-30-2006 at 06:57 PM.
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