Old 10-28-2008, 04:24 AM   #26
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:27 AM   #27
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You're approaching it more as a form of art, but I think of it as documentation that looks good. I think your primary concern is how the photo looks and that is also a huge concern of mine, but I don't let it get in the way of what the photo represents
I'll piggyback and say there are three types of rail photographers:

1) Those who want the best image possible (which includes cloning stuff out)

2) Those who want to document reality (a true representation of the scene)

3) Those who want the best image possible which documents reality

I fall under Category 3. I'm against cloning stuff out because it's not a representation of reality. But, that's just me...
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:32 AM   #28
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I fall under Category 3. I'm against cloning stuff out because it's not a representation of reality. But, that's just me...
Hopefully your stalker will follow your ways in this instance.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:44 AM   #29
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Didn't you show this pair once before?
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:46 AM   #30
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Didn't you show this pair once before?

I might have, but a) I'm losing my memory with old age, and b) I needed a few more views on that shot.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:49 AM   #31
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I might have, but a) I'm losing my memory with old age, and b) I needed a few more views on that shot.
OK, I shoved it just a wee bit further up over 12,000 views.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ween
I fall under Category 3. I'm against cloning stuff out because it's not a representation of reality. But, that's just me...
Define reality, Chris. If I remove something prior to taking the picture, am I removing reality?
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:52 AM   #33
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Define reality, Chris. If I remove something prior to taking the picture, am I removing reality?
Nope, you just changed reality.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:58 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JimThias
Define reality, Chris. If I remove something prior to taking the picture, am I removing reality?
Things that are permanent which I can't move (power lines, telephone poles, people in the shot, buildings, trees, graffiti) fall under "reality." Things that can be moved (trash, weeds, an errant branch, an old man who wanders into my shot beforehand where I have time to yell, "Get the hell out of my shot, old man") that do not define the area or take away from the historical accuracy aren't "reality."

These are by no means set in stone, but should help clear up the issue of 'reality.'
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:03 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ween
Things that are permanent which I can't move (power lines, telephone poles, people in the shot, buildings, trees, graffiti) fall under "reality." Things that can be moved (trash, weeds, an errant branch, an old man who wanders into my shot beforehand where I have time to yell, "Get the hell out of my shot, old man") that do not define the area or take away from the historical accuracy aren't "reality."

These are by no means set in stone, but should help clear up the issue of 'reality.'
Ok, so what if the power line and poles had never been put there in first place to muck up a beautiful NATURAL scene? So a beautiful scene in nature has to suffer because some idiots put up ugly poles and wires instead of running them under ground?

Also, if something can be "cloned" prior to taking the shot as easily as it can be cloned after taking the shot, what is the difference?

Reality is what you make it.

Last edited by JimThias; 10-28-2008 at 05:24 AM. Reason: edited to help the challenged understand easier
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:06 AM   #36
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Ok, so what if the power line and poles had never been put there in first place, mucking up a beautiful NATURAL scene?
What? That makes no sense. Power lines can't 'muck up' a shot if they were never there...
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:35 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
The whole reason for RP not allowing this type of manipulation is because when things like this are done, the photograph no longer represents reality. If you want to control everything, you should be a painter, not a photographer.
Professional photographers do attempt to control everything, so your "painter vs. photographer" argument is bogus. And I'm sure if a distracting background object was found in one of a pro's shots it would be removed without compunction from either the photographer or client. Of course a pro would try to scout out a location without any potential issues to begin with and that's what I attempt to do as well. But it doesn't always work. There are a lot of nice locations out there with some very minor problems that can easily be taken care of with a clone brush. In many areas, especially cities, it is virtually impossible to escape power poles and wires. So what's your solution: Don't shoot at all or just live with the distracting objects, despite having the ability to remove them? That just seems silly to me.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:09 PM   #38
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I am seeing a lot of false distinctions in the above posts. There is nothing wrong with cloning out objectionable details in shots that you print for your own wall, or share with your friends, but if you post it on RP, you need to follow RP's rules which are pretty clear on the subject of photo manipulation. The same is true for "Trains" and "Railfan" magazines.

A lot of people use RP as a source for railfanning information and you can find shots from RP showing up in published sources. Folks viewing shots on RP have a right to expect that what they see is what they get. Sure, you can make the shot better with your clone brush, but that's not the point as far as posting to RP is concerned.

Back 40 years ago, almost all rail lines had phone and code wires following the ROW and film photographers had to learn how to include them or shoot around them. Are digital photographers all becoming terminally lazy? Whatever happened to walking forward to get under the power lines? Don't you have a variety of lenses to allow you to move around to get the shot? If that's not possible, learn to include poles in such as way as to add to the shot, or at least not detract from it, or find another location.

Chain saws? People have been arrested for "chainsaw photoshopping" some well known locations back east! A small folding saw is great for cutting tall weeds and pruning small branches, activities which won't get you in trouble and will legitimately improve your shot. A friend of mine spent an entire day on Tennessee Pass, removing cut ties from his favorite location. He made his shots better and anyone who came along later could get the same better shots as well.

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Old 10-28-2008, 03:52 PM   #39
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Sometimes the "chainsaw fairy" does pay a visit...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...236193&nseq=20

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...239156&nseq=47


Thanks for visiting Springfield ottergoose! Feel free to drop by any time.

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Old 10-28-2008, 05:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by matth
Professional photographers do attempt to control everything, so your "painter vs. photographer" argument is bogus. And I'm sure if a distracting background object was found in one of a pro's shots it would be removed without compunction from either the photographer or client. Of course a pro would try to scout out a location without any potential issues to begin with and that's what I attempt to do as well. But it doesn't always work. There are a lot of nice locations out there with some very minor problems that can easily be taken care of with a clone brush. In many areas, especially cities, it is virtually impossible to escape power poles and wires. So what's your solution: Don't shoot at all or just live with the distracting objects, despite having the ability to remove them? That just seems silly to me.
You are not a professional railroad photographer, so there is no need to compare yourself to one. You're completely missing the concept of documentation and that's a huge part of railroad photography.

It doesn't really matter what you think because you're breaking the rules of RP.
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by a231pacific
I am seeing a lot of false distinctions in the above posts. There is nothing wrong with cloning out objectionable details in shots that you print for your own wall, or share with your friends, but if you post it on RP, you need to follow RP's rules which are pretty clear on the subject of photo manipulation. The same is true for "Trains" and "Railfan" magazines.
I'd be quite surprised if someone from Trains (or any other publication) stepped forward and claimed they've NEVER photoshopped ANYTHING in ANY of the pictures they've published.

Do "publications" by Amtrak count? In their "Amtrak America 2008/2009" brochure, they cloned out the lead engine of a double engine consist in a photo of mine. But I guess since they aren't Trains or any of the other "real" railroad publications, that doesn't count.

Quote:
A lot of people use RP as a source for railfanning information and you can find shots from RP showing up in published sources. Folks viewing shots on RP have a right to expect that what they see is what they get.
They have a right? It's just a website hosting pictures. If someone feels they've been misled because of something they saw on RP, then they need to see a therapist.

Quote:
Back 40 years ago, almost all rail lines had phone and code wires following the ROW and film photographers had to learn how to include them or shoot around them. Are digital photographers all becoming terminally lazy?
What does cloning have to do with digital photographers/photographs? I can guarantee you plenty of photographs from film and slides have been digitally altered with the clone tool and other techniques in photoshop over the years (and currently). And if I recall correctly, photoshop was around a while before digital cameras became the norm. There was and still is plenty of cloning going on with film photographs. It doesn't matter what medium took the picture. Once it's on the computer and opened in photoshop, it can be digitally manipulated.

Cloning has it's time and place. I just think this "reality" thing is being blown way out of proportion. Reality is what you make it...whether trackside before taking the picture or in post processing.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:39 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by matth
Sometimes the "chainsaw fairy" does pay a visit...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...236193&nseq=20

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...239156&nseq=47


Thanks for visiting Springfield ottergoose! Feel free to drop by any time.
I regard code lines differently than ordinary telephone lines, i have found they add more to a picture than they detract, code lines are a vanishing part of railroad history, so right now if you can include them in the picture all the better.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:40 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Jimmy T in Fantasy Land
Reality is what you make it...
Jim, I need a dose of your reality...dream land! If you and I both went out trackside together, the scene our eyes are seeing is reality, it's set, there's no way to deny what we physically see. The power lines and telephone poles are both really there. You can't wish them away...they are reality.
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Old 10-29-2008, 03:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ween
Jim, I need a dose of your reality...dream land! If you and I both went out trackside together, the scene our eyes are seeing is reality, it's set, there's no way to deny what we physically see. The power lines and telephone poles are both really there. You can't wish them away...they are reality.
Unfortunately, I completely agree with Chris. I don't know what you're smoking, Jim, but I think it's time you put it down.
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Old 10-29-2008, 03:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Ween
Jim, I need a dose of your reality...dream land! If you and I both went out trackside together, the scene our eyes are seeing is reality, it's set, there's no way to deny what we physically see. The power lines and telephone poles are both really there. You can't wish them away...they are reality.
Haha...you're not getting what I'm saying, but that's ok, Chris. If I could only have your reality (Colorado), I'd be a happy camper.
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Old 10-29-2008, 03:53 AM   #46
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Haha...you're not getting what I'm saying, but that's ok, Chris. If I could only have your reality (Colorado), I'd be a happy camper.
Please do explain what you mean by "reality is what you make it."

Yes, yes, yes, we all know how much you despise the scenery in lower Michigan. It may be time to start taking trips, and why not, gas is practically free now! I filled up for under $20 today. Granted, the tank wasn't even close to empty, but it was cool.
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:14 AM   #47
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In regards to the arguments, let's not forget some of the "old pros" had their own version of the clone tool back in the day, and it was called an airbrush. So, one could argue that "cloning" has been around for quite a while in photography.

Now, as for the actual issue, I'm against the cloning out of things like telephone lines. Try and work them into your shot, there are ways. You just have to try.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
You are not a professional railroad photographer, so there is no need to compare yourself to one. You're completely missing the concept of documentation and that's a huge part of railroad photography.

It doesn't really matter what you think because you're breaking the rules of RP.
If you would have read my post carefully you would have seen that I do not consider myself to be a professional photographer, but that I try to find uncluttered scenes like a pro would.

In regard to your point on documentation, I fully agree with you on railroad operations, equipment, etc., but the last time I checked this was railpictures.net, not powerlinepictures.net. In 20 years will anyone care where all the distracting powerlines used to be located?

As far as your last comment goes, I guess I'm just a "Digital Rebel".
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:03 PM   #49
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If you would have read my post carefully you would have seen that I do not consider myself to be a professional photographer, but that I try to find uncluttered scenes like a pro would.
Well, you're obviously failing at that because if you did succeed, you wouldn't have to clone anything out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matth
In regard to your point on documentation, I fully agree with you on railroad operations, equipment, etc., but the last time I checked this was railpictures.net, not powerlinepictures.net. In 20 years will anyone care where all the distracting powerlines used to be located?

As far as your last comment goes, I guess I'm just a "Digital Rebel".
You can belittle it and justify it anyway you want, but when you clone permanent things out of a photo, you are lying to the viewer. The photo is no longer an accurate representation of the scene.

Jim, I forgot to mention that I'm still waiting for your explanation.

Last edited by Mike B.; 10-30-2008 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:02 PM   #50
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Mike, have a nice life, if that is, indeed, possible. I am outta here...
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