Old 09-19-2012, 09:46 PM   #26
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Your argument is idiotic and something I would expect out of Dan Valentine.
Lets continue applying your logic

This is not a photo, Travis used a watermark and is using it to promote his website by including a link to his site, therefore it is advertising.
Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 408771
Photograph © Travis Dewitz


This is not a photo, simply a advertisement for Ian's yahoo group
Image ©
PhotoID:
Photograph ©


Everything Pete Lerro posts is just a ad and not worthy of being called a photo because he includes a link to his Charter website in his username, disgraceful behavior.....
Image © Pete Lerro - www.Lerroproductions.com
PhotoID: 385831
Photograph © Pete Lerro - www.Lerroproductions.com
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:11 PM   #27
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the watermarks/ads in the OP look like crap. and that's the way it is. a tiny one at the bottom is something different altogether.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:18 PM   #28
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Regarding the ongoing debate on photo vs ad, I have to ask, WWPS? What would Peter (Lewis) say? Would he approve of the tenor and subject matter of this thread?
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:43 PM   #29
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I'm still confused. What makes Casey's NS images advertisements? And how are they any different from any other photo on RP? Especially ones with copyrights or watermarks on them? Like these by a RP photog --

Image © EL ROCO Photography
PhotoID: 404091
Photograph © EL ROCO Photography
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:11 AM   #30
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You guys are arguing about a watermark/ logo. Seriously? I'm sure your time could be better spent.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:17 AM   #31
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You guys are arguing about a watermark/ logo. Seriously? I'm sure your time could be better spent.
It wasn't more than a few days ago that somebody was complaining that it was too boring around here!
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:30 AM   #32
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It wasn't more than a few days ago that somebody was complaining that it was too boring around here!
I thought that was more of a joke. Lol. I don't mind arguments if they're something worth arguing over.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:36 AM   #33
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I quit using watermarks because they can be easily removed anyway, like this. The only point that I see in using them is to advertise.



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Old 09-20-2012, 05:14 AM   #34
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The contraction for advertisement is ad, not add.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:17 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
So a postcard isn't a photograph either?
Not in the classic sense, a post card was printed on paper and meant to be sent through the mail.

Further, they were mass produced and people usually didn't go to a gallery and buy them to have them framed on their wall.

Postcards are generally images that many times originated as photographs, but the post card itself was not a photograph printed on photo paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
photograph: n. - a picture or likeness obtained by photography (courtesy of the Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
Based on that definition you could be right, however it depends on the meaning of "obtained by photography."


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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
And you've never bought a postcard because you liked the picture?
Yes, but I sent them or gave them away - I don't collect them or display them on the wall.


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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Does an Ansel Adams phtograph cease being a photograph because it is sold as a postcard?
No, but buying a postcard or print from A. Adams does not seek to "promote" something.

You can have promotional material made with A. Adams prints and/or images on, or in them.

Those would be ads - ya? (thanks Dennis).


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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
For that matter, if it weren't a decent photograph, it's highly unlikely that it would end up being used as promotional material.
Well, that once the was prevailing consensus, but due to observations made over the past few months, I think that has changed.

BTW: I think UP produces the best promotional material of all the class ones.


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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Beyond that, why are any of us submitting our photographs to this site? Isn't it because, in some way or another, we are looking to "promote" our images? We want people to see them, to pay attention to them.
Shits & giggles.


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Originally Posted by jnohallman View Post
Just because we aren't making money doesn't mean that we aren't promoting interest in our activity.
That is really quite different than a large corporation posting pictures of it's assets on the Internet.

Suppose Herzog or some tie plate manufacturer decides they want to post pictures of their equipment on the Site?

It is still rail related and were it done correctly, it could even be interesting, but is that really in keeping with the stated intent of the site?

Course, as I said before the owners of the site can do whatever they want and if "I" don't like it, "I" can go else where.




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Originally Posted by Dennis A. Livesey View Post
The contraction for advertisement is ad, not add.
Thank you Jim!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
I'm still confused. What makes Casey's NS images advertisements? And how are they any different from any other photo on RP? Especially ones with copyrights or watermarks on them? Like these by a RP photog --

Image © EL ROCO Photography
PhotoID: 404091
Photograph © EL ROCO Photography
What am I selling or trying promote?

I put my mark on their so that when and if the image gets linked to another site, there is some identifying information as two the ownership of the image. (They're are also other marks that are hidden in/on the image that can be used too id it.)




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Originally Posted by nikos1 View Post
Your argument is idiotic and something I would expect out of Dan Valentine.
Lets continue applying your logic
I am sorry, but the tone of your response does not warrant a reply from me, or any further discussion of the issue(s) for that matter.

Thank you for playing.

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Old 09-20-2012, 02:15 PM   #36
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The issue I have with NS putting their logo on photos submitted to this site is that they're getting free advertising at Chris Kilroy's expense. Granted, they're not putting hyperlinks in the caption or the watermark, but it still gives them free exposure that other companies are paying good money for to occupy RP.net banner ads.

To put this into perspective, lets say I take the EMDX 2012 shot that POTW a few months ago and "rent" the photo to EMD/Progress Rail Services, a company i've built a pretty strong relationship with. If I bill them on a yearly basis, let's say 5 cents per unique view, I allow them to provide me a watermark, and I put www.emdiesels.com in the caption data.

Given that 14000+ views it has now, that works out to just over $700. How do you suppose that price compares to taking a one-year banner ad out with the RP.net crew? (Maybe folks are already doing it.... hmmm) Hell, even if you come out with the SAME price as RP.net ad rates after one year, in the end, it is still grabbing revenue that RP.net would have had originally.

Before anyone says it, "Yeah, but RP.net targets railfans and train enthusiasts, not industry." But how many people have been contacted by industry entities that want to use their photos for promotional material or internal documentation? I've built at least a dozen relationships with different industry related companies who have searched this site for photos they need. So industry partners to a company like EMD will definitely notice.

By allowing Norfolk Southern to put their own watermark on the photos like this, they're setting a dubious precedent. If you don't want to use the RP.net watermark, fine, but you shouldn't be able to plant a giant "NS" logo prominently in the photo. It should be required to be smaller and pushed into a corner where it doesn't detract from the image.

I can look everywhere on this website, and there are ZERO guidelines for watermarks... the only thing pertaining to outside websites is a warning to not place active hyperlinks in caption data. But it is still permissible to add a URL which any yahoo can cut and paste into another browser tab, many people already do this, myself included.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:48 PM   #37
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Quote:
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The issue I have with NS putting their logo on photos submitted to this site is that they're getting free advertising at Chris Kilroy's expense.
.... and those photos got linked everywhere and brought Chris thousands of new and old viewers and I am sure many many have clicked an ad link or two. Also, the more new viewers Chris gets the more leverage he has with advertisers if he goes down that road to get better pricing and/or ads.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:09 PM   #38
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Also, the more new viewers Chris gets the more leverage he has with advertisers if he goes down that road to get better pricing and/or ads.
Hey advertisers! I want you to pay more for something NS got for free??

Just kidding! Aside from hating all watermarks, I have no dog in the fight.

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Old 09-20-2012, 03:26 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by hoydie17 View Post
The issue I have with NS putting their logo on photos submitted to this site is that they're getting free advertising at Chris Kilroy's expense. Granted, they're not putting hyperlinks in the caption or the watermark, but it still gives them free exposure that other companies are paying good money for to occupy RP.net banner ads.

How do we know NS is not paying?
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:36 PM   #40
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Sean, in addition to the points Travis and Mathieu made, you estimate of a nickel is waay too high. I've never been able to nail down a number for a typical rate but from what I have been able to figure, it is on the order of 0.1 to 1 cent per view, and I suspect not over 0.5.

And, now I see that Travis didn't say this explicitly, but Chris doesn't just incur expense, he is getting the revenue from the 14000+ views! So Chris has managed to score some images taken by a company photographer, who is able to get inside the property, knows exactly what engines are where, and can get some shots that attract a bunch of views, much higher than average ("NS" is 2nd in the number of average views / image, with 8000+; already almost a million views total). Whether Chris cut a good deal, I have no idea, but it is clear he got plenty out of it, in exchange for the incremental costs of hosting a few MB of images.

And the costs of seeing a wave of speculation on one of his forums.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:36 PM   #41
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How do we know NS is not paying?
It's been said before that RP.net treats the NS photos as a sort of "validation" for the site, and therefore, it is implied that NS doesn't pay since they are in a sense "doing RP a favor"...
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:45 PM   #42
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The difference between the NS photos and banner ads, at least as I see it, is that when I come to the site, I have to see the banner ads whether I want to or not. As far as the NS pics go, if I don't want to pay attention to their watermark, I don't have to click on the photos. In that respect, I don't see it as quite an apples to apples comparison.

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Old 09-20-2012, 03:51 PM   #43
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It's been said before that RP.net treats the NS photos as a sort of "validation" for the site, and therefore, it is implied that NS doesn't pay since they are in a sense "doing RP a favor"...
That makes sense. Thanks!
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:05 PM   #44
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The contraction for advertisement is ad, not add.
Technically, turning "advertisment" into "ad" is an abbreviation, not a contraction. Let's not make this thread even more controversial...

As far as the OP, I think the watermarks are clearly more self promotional than they are copyright protection. Watermarks annoy me, but self promotion not so much. Part of the reason for posting photos here is a sort of "look at me" narcissism inherent in all of us. Watermarks and the odd "Suchandso Photography" links are just a step up from that, and 2 steps up from the logos featured on the locomotives we are photographing in the first place.

All of the examples are photos, some are photos coupled with self promotional and corporate promotional attributes. Personally, I would rather see them all and appreciate the ones I like. Should we not allow a corporation to post photos if the photos meet the standards of RP?

Andre

PS If there is a rule at RP that prohibits links to external sites for the purposes of driving traffic there, then I think it should be enforced consistently or clearly delineated when it is okay and when it ain't. (Sorry about that last contraction...)
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:48 PM   #45
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What's the difference between an NS watermark and "NS" plastered on the side of the subject in the image? Are we not advertising whatever railroad that we photograph every time we submit an image to this site (or anywhere else a photo is seen)? Also, adding that type of watermark is just redundant IMO.

As far as the 21st Century Steam logo goes, well, to me, that's just a cheesy title to attract cheesy 21st Century foamers.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:49 PM   #46
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Technically, turning "advertisment" into "ad" is an abbreviation, not a contraction. Let's not make this thread even more controversial...
About time someone stood up to Dennis the Menace and his grotesque distortions of our glorious language!

[psst: "ad" is actually a full fledged word now, not an abbreviation, not even slang at this point. There is no "." after "ad".]
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:39 AM   #47
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Technically, turning "advertisment" into "ad" is an abbreviation, not a contraction. Let's not make this thread even more controversial...
Quite right.

It is with the greatest of trepidation I ever attempt to be the language police.

I just know that Mrs. Johnson, my despairing 12th grade English teacher, is laughing herself silly at the thought of me having command of our language.

Stiil, "adds" was driving me insane!
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:59 AM   #48
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Sean, in addition to the points Travis and Mathieu made, you estimate of a nickel is waay too high. I've never been able to nail down a number for a typical rate but from what I have been able to figure, it is on the order of 0.1 to 1 cent per view, and I suspect not over 0.5.

And, now I see that Travis didn't say this explicitly, but Chris doesn't just incur expense, he is getting the revenue from the 14000+ views! So Chris has managed to score some images taken by a company photographer, who is able to get inside the property, knows exactly what engines are where, and can get some shots that attract a bunch of views, much higher than average ("NS" is 2nd in the number of average views / image, with 8000+; already almost a million views total). Whether Chris cut a good deal, I have no idea, but it is clear he got plenty out of it, in exchange for the incremental costs of hosting a few MB of images.

And the costs of seeing a wave of speculation on one of his forums.
No, that estimate is NOT way too high... I won't say how I know this... you'll just have to take my word for it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:28 AM   #49
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No, that estimate is NOT way too high... I won't say how I know this... you'll just have to take my word for it.
Well, ok. I have asked people whom I will call semi-insiders. People who have some familiarity with the process. Forgive me, but I do not recall what you do these days, how close you are to the process.

Here is an article that says a typical rate is 50 cents per 1000 impressions, which is 5 hundredths of a cent per view. So much less than I said, and way below what you say.

part 2: http://computer.howstuffworks.com/web-advertising2.htm

But that is for a banner. A sidebar pays more, $1 per 1000, or 10 hundredths of a cent per view. Not quite a nickel just yet!

Ok, now lets talk popups. The article (different page) says 4 to 10 times the banner rate. That makes it 50 hundredths or half a penny per view.

The article says more, but those appear to be what is used on RP. I don't know what RP actually uses; I just popped open some shots and I didn't see much. But say a banner, a sidebar, and a popup for each view - I don't actually know how often there is a popup, the lucrative one, but say one per view. The total, then, is two thirds of a penny per view. A long ways away from your nickel.

that is just one article, things could be different. And maybe RP is able to charge higher rates for targeted ads (but I don't ever see anything advertised here besides the usual, so no evidence of targeting that I can see). But I think I will stay with my overall assessment that revenue is under a penny per view, until I see better evidence than "I won't say how I know this... you'll just have to take my word for it". I'm just not taking that word.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:05 AM   #50
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Quite right.
Stiil, "adds" was driving me insane!
It was late, I acknowledge the brain fart.

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