Old 07-10-2007, 04:33 AM   #1
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Default Three More Rejects!

I thought maybe because of some somewhat unique angles of NS vs. PRR, these might make it in, but I got rejected for "Too Much Compression", "Too Much Noise/Grain" and "Unlevel Horizon." In the photo that says I have an Unlevel Horizon, I don't believe so, the trains are level, but the building in the background appears to be unlevel, probably due to the angle or perspective I took the photo from, so here they are!

(I agree that the first one probably shouldn't go in):
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=816104044
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1107485284
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1067903960

Let 'em rip!
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:48 AM   #2
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Yep, lot's of grain and digital artifacts...
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:03 AM   #3
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The lighting isnt really that great on the first photo plus the fence is distracting. As you can see my photo from that exact location got rejected also (http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=830351665)
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:13 AM   #4
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I know, I was at your thread. I saw the same PPLX train at Cresson later on. Pretty neat, we may have actually ran into each other without knowing it, which does tend to happen at big events like Railfest 2007.

By the way, the sun is NOT high for anyone who thinks it is. Shots were taken between 1015 and 1030. And I don't think the sun really gets high until 1100 or 1130. And also, does anyone know how to get rid of some of the compression?

Rich
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:16 AM   #5
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To better help, give us a look at how you processed these images...
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:46 AM   #6
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Step by step, each photo went through the same treatment:

-Cropping/Sharpening
-Making any color adjustments
-Resizing
-Lightening Adjustments
-Resizing to RP.net's approved size

That is basically it, any help on where I went wrong would be great!

..........
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alstom
I know, I was at your thread. I saw the same PPLX train at Cresson later on. Pretty neat, we may have actually ran into each other without knowing it, which does tend to happen at big events like Railfest 2007.

By the way, the sun is NOT high for anyone who thinks it is. Shots were taken between 1015 and 1030. And I don't think the sun really gets high until 1100 or 1130. And also, does anyone know how to get rid of some of the compression?

Rich
Different strokes for different folks, but I stop shooting at 1000am. After 1000, the lighting may be "acceptable" but certainly not good.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alstom
Step by step, each photo went through the same treatment:

-Cropping/Sharpening
-Making any color adjustments
-Resizing
-Lightening Adjustments
-Resizing to RP.net's approved size

That is basically it, any help on where I went wrong would be great!

..........
Try leaving the Sharpening to last.
  • Crop
  • Rotate (If required)
  • Noise reduction (If required)
  • Exposure and Colour correction
  • Sharpen
  • Re-size for RP.net
  • Sharpen (Optional step but only if it needs it and then only very lightly)
Cheers,

Christine.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:47 AM   #9
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As for composition and framing, the second one has the much better shot of getting in. I'd forget the third one and probably the first one too as the framing just isn't there for different reasons in both shots. I like the second one though, if you fix what ails it.

Good luck.


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Old 07-10-2007, 12:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
Different strokes for different folks, but I stop shooting at 1000am. After 1000, the lighting may be "acceptable" but certainly not good.
Well if you were at Railfest you wouldn't have any shots of the E8's (except the runs between P-burg and H-burg).
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Switched out
Try leaving the Sharpening to last.
  • Crop
  • Rotate (If required)
  • Noise reduction (If required)
  • Exposure and Colour correction
  • Sharpen
  • Re-size for RP.net
  • Sharpen (Optional step but only if it needs it and then only very lightly)
Cheers,

Christine.
I've constantly read from the experts, and practiced this myself, that you sharpen LAST...and that includes AFTER resizing.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:22 PM   #12
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Rotate before you crop, since you will have to crop again anyway after you rotate.

Sharpen last, although since I process images for printing and then resize again for RP, I do sharpen just a touch (0.5, 50, 0) after the resize.

Michael Allen
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:28 PM   #13
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Back to your photos, you might want to read up on jpeg compression. Every time you do a save in jpeg, the quality degrades. If you are shooting in jpeg, if you save between each editing step, you will have seriously degraded your image. Save once. Also save at the maximum setting and shoot at the maximum setting as well.

Don't level your shots based on the trains. Level your shot based on a vertical line near the center of your image that you know really is vertical. The edge of that big brick building should clearly be vertical, but it isn't in your image. Any perspective issues will normally be with the trains themselves. Of course, if you are shooting ultra wide angle and looking up or down, it may be hard to find a reliable vetical edge, but that isn't the case with your third shot.

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Old 07-10-2007, 01:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a231pacific
Back to your photos, you might want to read up on jpeg compression. Every time you do a save in jpeg, the quality degrades. If you are shooting in jpeg, if you save between each editing step, you will have seriously degraded your image. Save once.
I'm always saving my work while processing. You never know when the computer could crash and you lose everything you just did for the last 20 minutes (trust me, it's happened). Constantly saving within the file doesn't degrade the quality as far as I can tell, and there is never a loss in quality from start to finish of a file that I've repeatedly saved while processing.

Are you sure you're not getting that confused with saving a COPY, or am I misundertanding what you're saying, Michael?
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a231pacific
Back to your photos, you might want to read up on jpeg compression. Every time you do a save in jpeg, the quality degrades. If you are shooting in jpeg, if you save between each editing step, you will have seriously degraded your image. Save once. Also save at the maximum setting and shoot at the maximum setting as well.
As Jim said, this is less than clear. It is OK to save a zillion times, having stared from the original file, as long as you never close the editing software. Because each time you save, you are in effect saving for the first time since you opened the original.

What one must avoid doing is saving, then closing the file as jpg, then reopening the saved file in order to continue working.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:16 PM   #16
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Thanks for the help everyone. Unfortunately, I'm not blessed with noise-removal or leveling abilities, but I have a rather pathetic version of Photoshop, that only allows color adjustments and sharpening (that you cannot control, it sharpens an automatic amount, you have no options). Though, I will probably obtain Photoshop Elements soon and be able to have all of these features. So, what do you guys say I do, start from scratch on the second shot?
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Well if you were at Railfest you wouldn't have any shots of the E8's (except the runs between P-burg and H-burg).
I think I would have made an exception.
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alstom
Thanks for the help everyone. Unfortunately, I'm not blessed with noise-removal or leveling abilities, but I have a rather pathetic version of Photoshop, that only allows color adjustments and sharpening (that you cannot control, it sharpens an automatic amount, you have no options).
To the contrary. If your photoshop has the ability to create layers, then you have the ability to "fade" sharpening. It's quite simple. Make a duplicate layer, sharpen it and then fade the opacity to expose more of the unsharpened layer underneath. This in effect will create the similar control as the "fade effect" feature in newer versions of photoshop.

If you don't have the ability to create new layers, then I guess you're out of luck.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
To the contrary. If your photoshop has the ability to create layers, then you have the ability to "fade" sharpening. It's quite simple. Make a duplicate layer, sharpen it and then fade the opacity to expose more of the unsharpened layer underneath. This in effect will create the similar control as the "fade effect" feature in newer versions of photoshop.

If you don't have the ability to create new layers, then I guess you're out of luck.
Good point! I forgot about that. I have adjustable sharpening, so I don't need it for that, but when I am doing local contrast enhancement (= sharpening at 20/60/0 or so), it often comes out strong and so I dump it into a layer and reduce the opacity.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:05 PM   #20
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Well, today's my birthday, and sure enough, I wake up with Photoshop Elements on my desktop. It looks like I'm in good hands now. So if I take the original photo, what should I do to it? What that post up top says, or should I do something else?
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:17 PM   #21
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Happy Birthday!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alstom
What that post up top says, or should I do something else?
There is no one right way, either in sequence or settings for parameters. You will learn over time. Possibly only for the malicious desire to confuse you further, I offer you my take (all steps if required). Note that this may be different from work flows I have put into this forum previously. Like I said, there is no one right way! (A double asterisk is the larger category, a single the sub-bullet; for some reason indents are not working for me today.)

** Convert from RAW
* adjust temperature if needed, usually I check the Auto and As Shot versions and choose one, the other, or something in between
* make sure nothing is blown out, and in particular that the red channel is not blown out - reduce exposure and/or brightness until the red comes back

** Rotate (check that the verticals are vertical)
** Crop (remember that there is no need to stick to the 3:2 or 4:3 ratio of the original)
** Exposure and Color correction
* I usually try Auto Levels to see what it does (Auto Fix is usually a disaster, Auto Contrast never suits my tastes)
* I might look at shadows/highlights, always remembering that in most cases adjusting shadows by more than 3 (on a 0-100 scale!) is asking for trouble
* I ALWAYS adjust contrast, staring with a Brightness -5 and Contrast +5 and going from there. When starting with a raw file out of my Canon DSLR, I always need more contrast. (well, always = 97% of the time!)

** Noise Reduction
** Re-size for RP.net
** Sharpen (75/0.6/0 for starters)

Many, many things to mess with down the road, like the Channel Mixer for BW conversion, which I understand is in the latest version of PSE (you got v5, right?).
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Last edited by JRMDC; 07-11-2007 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:42 PM   #22
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Thanks for wishing me a happy birthday.Luckily, I am celebrating it trackside this upcoming weekend at Fostoria on Saturday and then at Berea on Sunday. I am still exploring Elements and I am slowly getting better at it. I have been "playing around" with some photos in it and it did a pretty good job so far. I will try all of the things you said later on, and then post it here and see what you think.

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Old 07-13-2007, 03:22 PM   #23
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To follow up what I said, I edited these in Elements from the originals. This includes Brightening Shadows, Darkening Highlights, Cropping, Reducting Noise, Rotating (if necessary), sharpening and Unsharp Mask. Even though I leveled that one photo, I still got the "Unlevel Horizon" reject. There is no way for me to level the building without making the trains look like they're on hills. What do you guys think? Comments and suggestions appreciated!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=612308640
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=334452318
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=393387&key=0

And here is a shot I never tried before.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=393388&key=0

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Old 07-13-2007, 03:49 PM   #24
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First: going away shot, nothing else going for it, so bad angle.

Second: you don't even have the frame of the 3339 level. Not sure that will help, given the building. But what's wrong with having the building level and the engine going uphill? It apparently was! I personally don't find the shot appealing anyway, were the technical flaw corrected, but that's just me.

Third: the key player, the E8, is going away, the other train is facing a good direction but too distant, bad angle. The weed in the lower left does not help.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:52 PM   #25
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Fourth: nose (coupler) of NS obscured, nose of E8 obscured and for that matter most of the interesting E8 not visible, nose of the 3339 just creeping in, "uninteresting roster shot" of the 9678 is the way I see this one.

Sorry, it appears that while you have some cherished memories from the visit of the E8, I don't see anything here that gets into RP. We've all had days that didn't work out (I always think of one in particular when this comes up and still say AARGH).
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