Old 03-22-2012, 04:33 PM   #51
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As for showing ID, I think in some states it is the law.
There is an Arizona case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court wherein they ruled that it is ok for the cops to request id from a person during an investigatory stop.

Therefore, the cops in any state can do this and you need to comply or face detention/or arrest until they can identify you.

And as a matter of terminology, an investigatory stop only requires reasonable suspicion, rather than probable cause.

It is a very low standard - however, I do not know of any state that requires that a person carry identification.

In California they can only ask for your drivers license if you are driving.

However, since that is usually the best form of id that a person is carrying, that is usually what people give them.

When we went on or 9/11 trip I brought my passport rather than my CDL because there is much less information on a passport than on a CA drivers license.

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Old 03-22-2012, 11:25 PM   #52
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You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. What situation would it depend on? I hope that your answer will relate to the video, that was my intent with the commentary posted beneath the link.
I wanna take a stab at this. I did watch some of your video (too long to watch it all, but I got it). I have been stopped on a sidewalk on several occasions taking photos. Not of trains (yet) but in one case of planes landing at LAX. The officer in that instance asked me what I was doing. I never say the first few things that pop into my head at that point (like, "WTF does it look like?" or "Washing an elephant") I just state the obvious. In this case the officer asked if he could see my shots so I showed him on the LCD. He nodded, said okay, and drove off. As he left I told him I also shot trains. He seemed unimpressed.

So, in my instance, had I stood mute and said nothing, I wonder what would have happened? Simply telling the officer the obvious was sufficient to de-escalate the issue, but I think if I did not answer he would have ratcheted things up on me.

Thus, while the gist of your video is true, I can see some exceptions. Like when you are pretty sure you are not being investigated for a crime, but being questioned because what you are doing is slightly out of the norm.

For what it is worth in the context of this thread, I always stand up for my rights when I know I am right. I have had the military call the cops on me (LAPD) for taking photos of their base, which happened to be in the background of my actual subject matter. I did give my ID to the police, but I told them and the soldiers that I was doing nothing wrong. When they asked if I was done taking photos I said no. They told me to hurry up and I told them I would take all day if I wanted. I will not fold and have no problem going to jail if it comes to that, but I am confident about what my rights are. I also think I would find some mild satisfaction in a false imprisonment lawsuit, too, but that's just me.

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Old 03-23-2012, 03:12 AM   #53
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In California they can only ask for your drivers license if you are driving.

When we went on or 9/11 trip I brought my passport rather than my CDL because there is much less information on a passport than on a CA drivers license.
Whenever I am asked for my ID and I am not in my truck/car, I give them my Concealed Weapons Permit. It pisses them off and they get all nervous. Especially the assholes at the airport. It's a legal governmental form of identification.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:48 AM   #54
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Florida is a different place than California (we don't have mosquitoes either).
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:13 PM   #55
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Florida is a different place than California (we don't have mosquitoes either).
From what I understand, in terms of certain things like gun control, it's like the Soviet Union. I will take mosquitoes.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #56
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After visiting the Soviet Union I got the impression they have more freedom.

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Old 03-23-2012, 02:32 PM   #57
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From what I understand, in terms of certain things like gun control, it's like the Soviet Union. I will take mosquitoes.
Amazing how areas with the strickest gun control have the most crime too..

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Old 03-23-2012, 02:53 PM   #58
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What are you talking about, Loyd? Crime rates in Florida are much, much worse than California. Lookie here, Texas is also worse than California, and much worse than NJ.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:13 PM   #59
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What are you talking about, Loyd? Crime rates in Florida are much, much worse than California. Lookie here, Texas is also worse than California, and much worse than NJ.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
EDIT: Oh, never mind....

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Old 03-23-2012, 06:24 PM   #60
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Quick, someone close that toilet before the thread falls down it!
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:24 PM   #61
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Reasons why I find Troy entertaining:

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Whenever I am asked for my ID and I am not in my truck/car, I give them my Concealed Weapons Permit. It pisses them off and they get all nervous. Especially the assholes at the airport. It's a legal governmental form of identification.
When it comes to gun laws, California has the most f-ed up laws that are possible.

The legislators have decided that cops and criminals shall be the only citizens that will carry guns regularly.

Cops because it is their job, and criminals because they don't care about the consequences.

This results in everyday citizens deciding whether they will risk becoming a victim of crime, or being a criminal (by being in possession of a firearm in an unlawful place).

Every time someone tries to loosen up the gun laws, the law enforcement lobby jumps in there and scares everyone into backing down.

It has been said that a government that fears an armed citizenry, is a government to be feared indeed.

Heck, even Arizona has a better system.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:31 PM   #62
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What are you talking about, Loyd? Crime rates in Florida are much, much worse than California. Lookie here, Texas is also worse than California, and much worse than NJ.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
Overall yes, but if you look at the violent crimes (those that being armed would help defend against) such as murder, rape and robbery, the numbers are not that different including those in Arizona.


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Quick, someone close that toilet before the thread falls down it!

You should know that you can't shut the lid when someone is sitting on it - and in this instance, it is not only occupied, but there is a line.

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Old 03-23-2012, 09:10 PM   #63
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Just as an FYI, an am actually not personally pro-gun control (although I do believe some states make it too easy).

I was simply showing a census document that contradicted what someone else had said. Facts are funny things... they are facts whether you agree with them or not.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:16 PM   #64
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Facts are funny things... they are facts whether you agree with them or not.
Were those facts, or were they statistics? After all, there are three kinds of lies . . . .

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Old 03-23-2012, 09:29 PM   #65
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Amazing how areas with the strickest gun control have the most crime too..
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What are you talking about, Loyd? Crime rates in Florida are much, much worse than California. Lookie here, Texas is also worse than California, and much worse than NJ.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
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Overall yes, but if you look at the violent crimes (those that being armed would help defend against) such as murder, rape and robbery, the numbers are not that different including those in Arizona.
I think the key point, that Loyd's assertion is incorrect, holds. Whether or not the reverse is instead true, or instead there is no relationship between gun control and violent crime.

My own view, or supposition is a more accurate word, is that these simple data are hopelessly confounded by other things, particularly the urban/rural mix. But what Loyd said is not obviously true. (And if it were true, there would be the obvious issue of reverse causation, but I digress ...)
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:30 PM   #66
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Were those facts, or were they statistics? After all, there are three kinds of lies . . . .

Jon
Thank you, Mark Twain (although I do love me some Clemmons, me thinks that was one place where he was making a weak point that is funny as satire, but kind of pointless when the argument is something that has a factual answer, like which city has more people, Los Angeles or New York, and I give you the statistics that have been collected by the census bureau that shows a larger number for New York than it does for LA - you can still go out and talk about all the people on the freeway and the crowds at Pinks, and the mob scene on Santa Monica Pier and how when you were in New York one day it was very quiet and you only saw a couple people, but that doesn't change the fact that the statistics provide you with some truths).

In reality, if we are going to ignore statistics, we have nothing to base things on but our own opinions, which are polluted (in every single one of us) by our own perceptual screen.

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Old 03-23-2012, 09:31 PM   #67
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I think the key point, that Loyd's assertion is incorrect, holds. Whether or not the reverse is instead true, or instead there is no relationship between gun control and violent crime.

My own view, or supposition is a more accurate word, is that these simple data are hopelessly confounded by other things, particularly the urban/rural mix. But what Loyd said is not obviously true. (And if it were true, there would be the obvious issue of reverse causation, but I digress ...)
Well, from what I understand, Antartica has no gun laws and no gun crime, so....

Joking aside, you are absolutely right in saying that statistics need to be taken for what they are, and if we were really trying to determine cause and effect in this case, we would need to look at population density, poverty, etc. That being said, that doesn't change the fact that Florida has lenient gun control laws and California has stringent gun control laws, and there is more crime per 100,000 members of the population in the Sunshine State than there is in the Golden State.

All opinions on why that is, aside, that is a fact.

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Old 03-23-2012, 10:02 PM   #68
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......... That being said, that doesn't change the fact that Florida has lenient gun control laws and California has stringent gun control laws, and there is more crime per 100,000 members of the population in the Sunshine State than there is in the Golden State.
Florida is below the Mason Dixion Line and having Walt Disney World there doesn't change that fact.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:13 PM   #69
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Florida is below the Mason Dixion Line [snip]:
So are parts of New Jersey.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:19 PM   #70
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So are parts of New Jersey.
And parts of Delaware are north of it. Moving on to the next geography lesson . . .

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Old 03-23-2012, 10:20 PM   #71
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And parts of Delaware are north of it. Moving on to the next geography lesson . . .

Jon
Why is North Bergen, NJ south of Bergen County, NJ?
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #72
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Why is North Bergen, NJ south of Bergen County, NJ?
They were just planning ahead for the next time the earth's magnetic poles flip?

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Old 03-23-2012, 10:43 PM   #73
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They were just planning ahead for the next time the earth's magnetic poles flip?

Jon
Actually it comes back to being a RR thing - Bergen Hill is part of the Palisades in Jersey City. This is a one time famous RR spot as the Erie cut through Bergen Hill with the engineering landmark Bergen Arches.

North Bergen is north of Bergen Hill.

Bergen County just happens to be even further North.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:05 AM   #74
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Reasons why I find Troy entertaining:

(1)

When it comes to gun laws, California has the most f-ed up laws that are possible.

The legislators have decided that cops and criminals shall be the only citizens that will carry guns regularly.

Cops because it is their job, and criminals because they don't care about the consequences.

This results in everyday citizens deciding whether they will risk becoming a victim of crime, or being a criminal (by being in possession of a firearm in an unlawful place).

Every time someone tries to loosen up the gun laws, the law enforcement lobby jumps in there and scares everyone into backing down.

It has been said that a government that fears an armed citizenry, is a government to be feared indeed.

Heck, even Arizona has a better system.
You can always move to a better place. They dont have any silly gun registry here. Here's a few.

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Old 03-25-2012, 04:14 AM   #75
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Na, I want to see the assault weapons.

California makes the Brady Bill look lenient.
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