Old 08-06-2007, 08:37 PM   #1
bigbassloyd
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Default Some assistance please

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=402675&key=0

The tracks are going downgrade 1.5%, the curves are all superelevated, and the only things close to level in the shot was the crossbucks. So that's what I leveled with.

Can some additional eyes catch something I missed?

thanks!

Loyd L.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:50 PM   #2
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You cannot use the crossbucks to level the photo because you are a shooting with a wide angle and they are towards one edge of the frame. When shooting with a wide angle you need to use the centermost vertical in the image to use as a guide to correct the rotation. Most grades are so insignificant you cannot capture them without a telephoto and this happens to be one of those cases. Use one of the handrail verticals on the lead loco to level it and you should be good to go.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
You cannot use the crossbucks to level the photo because you are a shooting with a wide angle and they are towards one edge of the frame. When shooting with a wide angle you need to use the centermost vertical in the image to use as a guide to correct the rotation. Most grades are so insignificant you cannot capture them without a telephoto and this happens to be one of those cases. Use one of the handrail verticals on the lead loco to level it and you should be good to go.
Thanks Andrew! I didn't know this Canon S3 IS would do that without a wide angle lens.. so that explains it!

resubmitting shortly

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Old 08-06-2007, 10:26 PM   #4
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Ugh...this is a tough one. I went with what Andrew said a picked a vertical from the handrail on the leading loco. The one I picked was near the rear, and it ended up be about a 4.45 degree CCW rotation. Unfortunately, you end up losing a bit of the rails in the upper left, though.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:09 AM   #5
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There is no way that shot needs a 4.45 rotation. I think the shot is beautiful and could actually see it getting in as it is. But if a screener says it needs rotating, I'd say it's less than .5 to the left. Truth is there is no way any of us know how unlevel, if at all, this shot is without actually being there. I think the shot should have got in as it is, but I carry no weight here.

Don't cut the rails off in the background just for the sake of uploading it to this web site. The shot is too good for that.


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Old 08-07-2007, 12:40 AM   #6
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Appeal it!!!! What horizon? There isn't one! I'll give someone 100 bucks if they can tell me where the horizon actually IS in that photo. Closest thing to a "horizon" that you get in that image is the roadway, and it looks pretty darn level to me, even if it was shot with a wide angle lens. I think the screener got a little too picky with that one. Who said anything that a photo has to have perfect angles and symmetry? Let it flow man, let if flow. Too many restrictions here.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:06 AM   #7
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If a slight rotation to the left is what it needs i would do it, if the rails in the background were left. But seriously i would appeal this shot, I think ut is a top shot just the way it is. Regards Lee Baxter
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:17 AM   #8
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well I rotated a bit, and it got in..

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...196477&nseq=97

I guess this spot is just an optical illusion...

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Old 08-07-2007, 01:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyrail
Appeal it!!!! What horizon? There isn't one! I'll give someone 100 bucks if they can tell me where the horizon actually IS in that photo. Closest thing to a "horizon" that you get in that image is the roadway, and it looks pretty darn level to me, even if it was shot with a wide angle lens. I think the screener got a little too picky with that one. Who said anything that a photo has to have perfect angles and symmetry? Let it flow man, let if flow. Too many restrictions here.
You got to be kidding me right....? Look at the lead unit; the top of the cab is on the same axis as the last axel in the rear truck! If that's level I hope AC44Ws come with 5 point seatbelts causes like a 45% grade!

The same thing happens to me more often than I like to admit, when shooting 'wide' I tend to level the center of the shot but then shoot the subject (aka, train) closer to the edge of the frame and get big time distortion like that seen here. In such cases, you just have to bite the bullet and make an extreme rotation crop.

postscript; the accepted verison is a very nice middle ground, well done

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Old 08-07-2007, 01:21 AM   #10
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It's still a great shot, Loyd, but the accepted version looks unlevel to me tp the left while the rejected version seems almost spot on level.


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Old 08-07-2007, 01:56 AM   #11
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thanks for all the help and suggestions!

I'm still learning as I go, and wide angle shots are something I severely lack on.

I figure.. level the shot like any other shot and good to go

I'll be back there again sometime in the future, there's more options to be had around Moss Run. And man oh man the sounds and smells of that train coming down the mountain... heaven!

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Old 08-07-2007, 04:39 AM   #12
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Loyd, good to see another fellow Powershot S3 user. This camera, being that it is not a true digital SLR, makes you work it a bit to get a good shot. I still need to get mine out and try some night photography with it. BTW, nice shot.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyrail
Who said anything that a photo has to have perfect angles and symmetry?
If you want to continually improve your photos, you better be shooting for perfect angles and symmetry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyrail
Let it flow man, let if flow.
No, I will not let it flow. I prefer my photos to be, well...good, so I can't just "let it flow." I've never had a near perfect photo just happen as I was lettin' it flow. Quality photos require accurate planning and excellent foresight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyrail
Too many restrictions here.
Not enough. I'm still seeing photos get in that I don't think should. Of course, I'm just on sidelines so my opinion in reality just like yours, doesn't matter too much here.


As far as the photo itself goes, it looks like the accepted version is more unlevel that the rejected one. Due to the wide angle, I don't think there is a "sweet spot" to make the photo appear level with all that lovely distortion. That's why 99% of my photos are taken at 50mm and above.

Last edited by Mike B.; 08-07-2007 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 11:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
Due to the wide angle, I don't think there is a "sweet spot" to make the photo appear level with all that lovely distortion. That's why 99% of my photos are taken at 50mm and above.
Mike, I follow what you are saying, but frankly this last sentence is insane. You have written off wide angle photography?

Well, OK, it's a matter of taste not principle; some like wide, some tele. But I think you are missing out. Especially for trains, for which wide can ba, at times, well, to understate, at least useful!
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:45 PM   #15
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In the accepted photo, look at the rear of the train and tell me that shot is level.

As far as Mike's 50mm rule, well, to each their own, but I love shooting with my 10 to 22 mm. It's a struggle to get good stuff with it but when it works, I think they're fantastic. Probably the lens I use less than the others is my 50 mm f1.8. I don't like to limit myself to shooting no wide angles or for that matter only wide angles.

Again, just personal taste.


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Old 08-07-2007, 05:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Mike, I follow what you are saying, but frankly this last sentence is insane. You have written off wide angle photography?

Well, OK, it's a matter of taste not principle; some like wide, some tele. But I think you are missing out. Especially for trains, for which wide can ba, at times, well, to understate, at least useful!
The only reason I rarely use wideangle is purely because I can't stand the distortion. If I think it's possible to not have the distortion very noticeable, I'll take the shot.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
There is no way that shot needs a 4.45 rotation. I think the shot is beautiful and could actually see it getting in as it is. But if a screener says it needs rotating, I'd say it's less than .5 to the left. Truth is there is no way any of us know how unlevel, if at all, this shot is without actually being there. I think the shot should have got in as it is, but I carry no weight here.

Don't cut the rails off in the background just for the sake of uploading it to this web site. The shot is too good for that.


Joe
Joe, I was simply going by Andrew's suggestion, and my edit was the example. Like I said, tough one...and I agree with you, without being there to see what it actually looks like, I don't think anyone could ever get it accurately levelled.

And for anyone complaining about wide angle distortion, that is easily corrected in photoshop.

Here is the best example I can show you of that. Kevin Vahey and I were standing right next to each other on this shot. I was standing on a step ladder, so my perspective is just a tad different. Regardless, we both used a wide angle lens and got distortion. However, I fixed the distortion on mine.

Look at the verticals on the right side of Kevin's shot:

Image © Kevin Vahey- http://vahey.digitalstu.com
PhotoID: 194495
Photograph © Kevin Vahey- http://vahey.digitalstu.com


And then compare to mine:

Image © Jim Thias
PhotoID: 195142
Photograph © Jim Thias


I have an older version of photoshop, so what I used was transform --> skew and then grabbed the upper right and left hand corners and pulled outward until the verticals weren't distorted any more. Simple as that...10-20 second "fix" (as long as you have a good vertical line to go by).

Last edited by JimThias; 08-07-2007 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:49 PM   #18
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Yep, just as I thought, a screwy version was accepted. I don't get it. The rear of the train looks like it's going to fall over! Absolutely terrible. And the accepted version is supposed to be better? Oh well, as long as the photographer doesn't care what difference does it make? It's really not his decision anyway. He only took the photo....

This is my take on this photo. The first thing I looked at when viewing the rejected version was the front of the train, which I agree has a little bit of a slant to it, but let me ask everyone what their natural tendency is when looking at a photo with a linear subject in it. Your eyes naturally follow the line into the background. In the first shot, my eyes went to the background and VOILA, it's level! In the new version, I'm looking at what appears to be a level looking train, but... once I follow the train to the rear of the image what happens? It's UNLEVEL. I don't care if the roadway in the background is actually a 45 degree grade crossing. I've never been there. Sometimes you have to fudge things a little to make them aesthetically pleasing. I'm sure I'll get jumped all over for saying this, but who says that when we shoot things they have to look EXACTLY the way they do in real life? Different lenses and focal ranges make things look differently in different situations. What about all of the millions of telephoto shots on this site? Aren't those shots illusions too? Are we supposed to shoot everything at 35mm? I'm sorry, but the editors and screeners got this one wrong and the photographer got it right.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:08 PM   #19
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Upon further review, I am with Rusty on this, albeit without the major attitude!

The end of the train in the accepted version looks pretty bad. The original version does convey a strong sense of downhill. I like it better.

But I can let go now, and move on with life!
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:15 PM   #20
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Rusty;

You said what I was trying to say ever since I saw the accepted version. Only you did it much better than I did. The rear of the train looks totally out of whack. There is no way a train would ever look like that. I saw the rejected version and it never occurred to me that a train might not look like it did. I see the acepted version and it makes me dizzy.

If it were my shot, I would fix it. Since it's not, I'll just rant and rave and shake my fists. The rejected version is too good to let it go in my opinion.


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Old 08-07-2007, 11:32 PM   #21
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standing there on that bluff 60 feet over the rail line.. everything was level

this one was a bit out of my comfort zone, due to the layout, I couldn't zoom, and zooming in is what I like to do.

I setup the tripod, and leveled it as best I could, fired the shots, came home, and post processed.

this has been a great learning experience, and I thank you all for the help, comments, and advice.

I guess in hindsight this was a tough-win photograph. I like both versions, but both versions have flaws.

Anybody want to ride out to Moss Run with me and try your luck?

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