Old 04-29-2010, 05:20 PM   #1
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Can I get your opinions on some photos and if they'd be worth trying to get to get accepted here. Any suggestions for improvments are appreciated.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/sho...spx?id=2039474

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/sho...spx?id=2039478

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/sho...spx?id=2039486

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Old 04-29-2010, 05:34 PM   #2
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Hi Brian,

My observation is that they would probably not make it due to poor lighting. If you're shooting common power...and these trains would definitely qualify..., you need to shoot on nice, sunny days, before 10 AM or after 4 PM. Your shadow should be pointing toward the train.

Also, they would probably be cited for poor cropping. In at least the first two cases, the train is absolutely dead center in the shot. RP really prefers a "rule of thirds" type crop. There are exceptions, but they don't make too many.

On the other hand, the pictures are sharp and on my tube at least, the image quality seems to be good.

To give yourself the best chance of getting shots on RP, you will need to pick spots with great light.
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:37 PM   #3
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The first shot isn't too bad aside from lighting, which is quite poor. The second photo has a centered locomotive with an overpowering headlight, and poor lighting. Third shot has some potential, but it's too dead on the right side, and that headlight is killing me again. The shot is too dark as well.

I'd probably skip uploading them, and reshoot the scene similar to number 1 in better light, or photo 3 with an emphasis on the left side in better light.

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Old 04-29-2010, 05:39 PM   #4
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Lightbulb All too dark.

They are too dark for this Site. You cannot have shadows on the nose of the engine (usually).

I like #3, but it would take some work and still think you have the too dark problem.

Look at the pictures on RP.net that were taken from the angles that you took these from.

Pay attention to the light on the front of the train and the overall exposure of the image.

I often adjust the look of my images specifically for this site.

Also, it is common to adjust the look of your images specifically for this Site, so you need to do that regardless of how you may have submitted the image(s) elsewhere.

RP has a certain look that they are after and you need to get your images to "fit" that look.

(There are exceptions, but not that many.)

See this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/36722129@N06/4483851468/

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Old 04-29-2010, 05:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
I often adjust the look of my images specifically for this site.

Also, it is common to adjust the look of your images specifically for this Site, so you need to do that regardless of how you may have submitted the image(s) elsewhere.

RP has a certain look that they are after and you need to get your images to "fit" that look.

(There are exceptions, but not that many.)

See this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/36722129@N06/4483851468/
I did a side by side and it appears the only difference is the cropping, no differences in exposure or contrast, and the light is just fine unlike the shots in the thread.

In my opinion the RP version is better, the flickr version has the train centered - not a fixed rule but in this case not pleasing - and the left side has little to offer. It is nice to have some extra sky, though, and I might prefer a bit of expansion up top or even a vertical compared to the RP version. So you may be right about the "look" but at least in this one case I think the restrictions of the "look" helped you rather than held you back.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:11 PM   #6
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Talking Cropping is the only difference.

Quote:
"In my opinion the RP version is better, the flickr version has the train centered"
I am glad you like it better. That means I was successful in tailoring my graphic media to the specific tastes of the audience on this Site.

"I" personally like more sky which is why it appears as such on "my Site."

What I was getting at is that I like his #3 because it has some artistic characteristics that were it to be worked over in PS, the image could make a really good rail shot, only not for RP.

I used the cropping example to make my point in as simple a way as possible and you are correct, it has nothing to do with lighting but that is not the only problem with his proposed submissions, only the most obvious.

I can provide other examples of changes made to images I have captured and made to get past the screeners - that from an artistic point of view make me cringe.

I think that is the source of a lot of frustration with people's submissions to this Site in that they are forced to adjust their artistic view on things to those who run the Site.

But life is full of that and this is not a compulsory endeavor, so if you want to post on RP, you need to follow the criteria of the Site.

No big deal.

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Old 04-29-2010, 06:25 PM   #7
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I am glad you like it better. That means I was successful in tailoring my graphic media to the specific tastes of the audience on this Site.

"I" personally like more sky which is why it appears as such on "my Site."
Understood, and this hobby is all about personal preferences. But, one must note, I suspect, without proof!, that the great majority of photographers, or perhaps photography appreciators, would find the flickr version too centered and too much dead space on the left. Yes, preferences are individual, but there are aspects of preferences that are, if not universal, then at least are much more often preferred. Hence one gets a "rule" of thirds, not because one should always use it, but because it often or usually is the case that a shot following that "rule" is preferred by a large proportion of observers.

So it isn't just the Site and its audience.

Not stated as a criticism of the shot or of your preferences, rather just to expand the discussion.

Quote:
I think that is the source of a lot of frustration with people's submissions to this Site in that they are forced to adjust their artistic view on things to those who run the Site.

But life is full of that and this is not a compulsory endeavor, so if you want to post on RP, you need to follow the criteria of the Site.
Agree totally, wish there were a way to convey this principle to all submitters so they would get it before being rejected and then popping off here and in other forums.

But, for a number of people, their "artistic view" is not particularly sound, either. Often people can't see issues in their own shots. I think in many cases it isn't that their artistic views deviate from what I will call the norm, rather that they have little sense of what makes a good shot.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post

But, for a number of people, their "artistic view" is not particularly sound, either. Often people can't see issues in their own shots. I think in many cases it isn't that their artistic views deviate from what I will call the norm, rather that they have little sense of what makes a good shot.
The "I took it, so it's perfect" mentality.

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Old 04-29-2010, 06:49 PM   #9
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Lightbulb More

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Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
...[portion omitted]....Not stated as a criticism of the shot or of your preferences, rather just to expand the discussion.
No offense taken, I enjoy these conversations.

The interesting issue about the dead space on the left side of the Flickr shot, is if I were to say that I was taking a picture of the sunset and the Westward sky, and the train just happened to be there, then what would be the conclusion?



Foreground clutter?

Take this image for instance



Is this a picture of a train, or a sunset?

In my mind at the time I shot it, it was a sunset and I used the train as the medium to frame and convey the different colors and types of light present at that location at sunset.

You really can't see the features of the train and that is not by accident, I don't want the viewer looking at the train (which is why the view numbers on this one are low BTW) I want the viewer looking at the corona of the sun and the shadows and the color and say wow, that is cool looking.

That was my intent, now what the viewer does when they look at it is a whole different issue and everybody is unique.

Personally "I" really like this one, but among the audience on RP, it is only marginally appealing..

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...[portion omitted]....But, for a number of people, their "artistic view" is not particularly sound, either.
So you are not a big fan of Robert Mapplethorp's work?

People could argue about what is art until the cows come home and never come to a conclusion.

Congress argued what is art when they found out that Mapplethorp had been supported by Federal grants to do some of his work.

Whether you like Mapplethorp's stuff or find it offensive, the fact remains that the definition of "what is art" is the slipperyest of slopes and always up for interpretation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Often people can't see issues in their own shots. I think in many cases it isn't that their artistic views deviate from what I will call the norm, rather that they have little sense of what makes a good shot.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I also think if you can't handle criticism on your work, you will never grow and never get good at anything.

Bottom line, if you can't handle rejection and criticism, this is not the place to post.

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Old 04-29-2010, 07:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
The interesting issue about the dead space on the left side of the Flickr shot, is if I were to say that I was taking a picture of the sunset and the Westward sky, and the train just happened to be there, then what would be the conclusion?
My conclusion would be that your sunset/sky shot suffers from distracting elements that move the eye away from your intended subject, which suffers from a lack of definition as a stand-alone element in a shot.

Alternatively, thinking of is as a more abstract primary element, one of color and texture (clouds), it gets overwhelmed by the less abstract foreground.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:26 PM   #11
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But, for a number of people, their "artistic view" is not particularly sound, either. Often people can't see issues in their own shots. I think in many cases it isn't that their artistic views deviate from what I will call the norm, rather that they have little sense of what makes a good shot.
Quote:
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I also think if you can't handle criticism on your work, you will never grow and never get good at anything.
I think we are talking past each other. What I was referring to are the many who submit badly lit, badly cropped, badly composed wedgies, not those who are achieving some higher level of artistry that may or may not match RP tastes. I do think there are shots that are not "beauty" or artistry in the eye of any beholder other than the shooter.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:51 PM   #12
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Ive got both you beat!
Original= DMIR #215

Then the RP edited version=
Image © Max Medlin
PhotoID: 319908
Photograph © Max Medlin


I tell ya, the things you gotta do to get a picture on around here!
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I personally have had a problem with those trying to tell us to turn railroad photography into an "art form." It's fine for them to do so, I welcome it in fact, but what I do have a problem with is that the practitioners of the more "arty" shots, I have found, tend to look down their nose's at others who are shooting more "mundane" shots.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:55 PM   #13
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I think we are talking past each other. What I was referring to are the many who submit badly lit, badly cropped, badly composed wedgies,
Clearly there are those.

Just go look at the Site where the sample shots are posted. (I'm not knocking that Site either, cause I have things there too.)

The offerings and the experience is very different when there is no screening process.

You assume at this Site that people have a minimum understanding of what makes a technically correct photo, irrespective of the subject matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
not those who are achieving some higher level of artistry that may or may not match RP tastes.
That is why I like Flickr. There are groups that cater to different audiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
I do think there are shots that are not "beauty" or artistry in the eye of any beholder other than the shooter.
When I was younger I would tend to agree, but with the Internet I have observed it is a big world.

The older I get the more I reach the conclusion that you can always find a few clowns to join any circus.

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Old 04-29-2010, 08:55 PM   #14
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Okay, just my two cents here: All three are nice photos, and although I'm not too hot on the composition for the first and third shots, they're good. However, the lighting is not up to RP standards. If you had well-lit shots, I think each one of them would have a shot at getting in.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
No offense taken, I enjoy these conversations.

The interesting issue about the dead space on the left side of the Flickr shot, is if I were to say that I was taking a picture of the sunset and the Westward sky, and the train just happened to be there, then what would be the conclusion?



Foreground clutter?

Take this image for instance



Is this a picture of a train, or a sunset?

In my mind at the time I shot it, it was a sunset and I used the train as the medium to frame and convey the different colors and types of light present at that location at sunset.

You really can't see the features of the train and that is not by accident, I don't want the viewer looking at the train (which is why the view numbers on this one are low BTW) I want the viewer looking at the corona of the sun and the shadows and the color and say wow, that is cool looking.

That was my intent, now what the viewer does when they look at it is a whole different issue and everybody is unique.

Personally "I" really like this one, but among the audience on RP, it is only marginally appealing..



So you are not a big fan of Robert Mapplethorp's work?

People could argue about what is art until the cows come home and never come to a conclusion.

Congress argued what is art when they found out that Mapplethorp had been supported by Federal grants to do some of his work.

Whether you like Mapplethorp's stuff or find it offensive, the fact remains that the definition of "what is art" is the slipperyest of slopes and always up for interpretation.




Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I also think if you can't handle criticism on your work, you will never grow and never get good at anything.

Bottom line, if you can't handle rejection and criticism, this is not the place to post.
Although it might need a rotation, I love that second shot. the palm tree is a great touch, and to have shown the train features would have ruined the shot. Great silhouette.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:04 AM   #16
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the palm tree is a great touch, and to have shown the train features would have ruined the shot.
Ah, you see it!

The palm trees are a big part of the picture (in my mind) and I purposely framed it that way and zoomed in to include them. (There is a third tree to the right that cannot be made part of the picture because it is too high, so that makes the right edge.)

Quote:
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Although it might need a rotation
Actually the image is plumb. I lightened it up and set the rotation based on the side of the building, then put the brightness back to where I shot it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:51 AM   #17
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I think that is the source of a lot of frustration with people's submissions to this Site in that they are forced to adjust their artistic view on things to those who run the Site.



No big deal.
Forced??? nobody is being forced, if you feel that way then why do you submit on here?
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:07 AM   #18
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Forced??? nobody is being forced, if you feel that way then why do you submit on here?
It does seem that some of the folks who come to these boards do feel they are being forced to adjust their photography or the post processing. Now level heads like yours and mine understand they aren't really being forced, but a lot of us have been on these forums too long not to come to that conclusion about some folks.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:14 AM   #19
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The older I get the more I reach the conclusion that you can always find a few clowns to join any circus.


As someone who likes the use the term "clown show" to describe ridiculous situations, I find this comment very funny.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:51 AM   #20
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Lightbulb Bad choice of the word "force?"

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Forced??? nobody is being forced, if you feel that way then why do you submit on here?
So I think most would agree that no one is "forced" to post anything on this Site - it is purely voluntary.

However, for the sake of argument, say I go out and capture this image:


and I really like it, and I like that it shows a familiar place, and that it is a wide view of that place I like, and it makes me happy as an artist.

Ok, so now since I am so happy with my image, I think that I want to share my happiness with the rest of the railroading world by posting the image to this Site.

Will they take it like it is above?

Based on my past knowledge of submissions and rejections, survey says - heck no, because there is too much stuff on the left side and the train is de-emphasized as the main subject of the image. (Cause in my mind when I shot this, it was a station shot, not purely a train photo.)

So, to get the photo on the Site what do I do?

Well, this:


Now it is a train shot clear as day and what have I done?

I have changed the look of the image to fit the audience on this Site.

No big deal, purveyors of media do this all the time, and if you are interested in view numbers like a lot of us seem to be, then you should shoot pictures of stuff that people want to see.

Would I have liked the image to be as the original, sure, but I realize that this Site has a certain look that is acceptable and I freely changed my image to "fit" what the Site requires in order to share it with all of you.

Of course no one "forced" me to change it, and no one "forced" me to post it, but the simple fact remains that I was required (a nicer way to say forced) to alter the look of my original image in order to have it displayed here.

I suppose the word "forced" was a poor choice in words since it implies a certain level of coercion, but I was still required to change the format of the image if I wished it to be added to the database - and I am not complaining about that.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:01 AM   #21
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Talking Clowns

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As someone who likes the use the term "clown show" to describe ridiculous situations, I find this comment very funny.
I sorry, I am just surrounded by clowns.

I should be a freaking ring master there are so many of them.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:14 AM   #22
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Ive got both you beat! I tell ya, the things you gotta do to get a picture on around here!
This post makes me laugh every time I look at it.

Bravo!
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:00 PM   #23
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I don't want the viewer looking at the train (which is why the view numbers on this one are low BTW) I want the viewer looking at the corona of the sun and the shadows and the color and say wow, that is cool looking.
totally agree-these shots don't get a lot of views, but I love them too!

Image © Paul Hoffmann
PhotoID: 322064
Photograph © Paul Hoffmann


something like this even does marginally better. I understand there's just a few simple shapes and so it's more artistic than "another train" shot. But I've seen plenty of "train shots!"

Image © Paul Hoffmann
PhotoID: 322388
Photograph © Paul Hoffmann

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Old 04-30-2010, 02:34 PM   #24
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I have changed the look of the image to fit the audience on this Site.

No big deal, purveyors of media do this all the time, and if you are interested in view numbers like a lot of us seem to be, then you should shoot pictures of stuff that people want to see.
Marketing 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
However, for the sake of argument, say I go out and capture this image:


Based on my past knowledge of submissions and rejections, survey says - heck no, because there is too much stuff on the left side and the train is de-emphasized as the main subject of the image. (Cause in my mind when I shot this, it was a station shot, not purely a train photo.)

So, to get the photo on the Site what do I do?

Well, this:


Now it is a train shot clear as day and what have I done?

I
IMO, the second shot is more pleasing. I don't see this particular one as being "station" versus "train" I actually think the original crop is empty on the left.

As for the first sunset shot, If you had PS'd palm trees on the left or maybe the Sears Tower, well then you'd be on to something!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:47 PM   #25
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Thanks for the replies and information. The photos were taken late evening before dusk (7:30ish). The sun had already set low enough that the area the first two photos were taken was in the shade. I tried to work with what I had and I was afraid opening the shutter more would've blown out the sky. I was shooting ISO 400 and was concerned about noise so thank you for being a second set of eyes for me.

Unfortunately I can't go out and reshoot in better lighting. This is a branch and the local that runs on it goes through usually when I'm at work. (Anyone have a doctor's excuse they can give me to miss work and shoot photos? ) They're doing some work on the line and I was taken by surprise to see this ballast train returning to the yard. They're basically grab shots because I had to quickly change my settings to try and adapt for the conditions.

Again, thanks for the replies and advice.

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