Old 06-06-2006, 09:27 PM   #1
Drewster
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Default how to tell high sun, how to determine?

during these times of the year, it's high sun time, but, how do you determine, what is. I mean, i've seen a LOT of photos in the library with HORRIBLE high sun shadows, yet, if i or some else uploads one with a little bit of a shadow under the frame, and it's rejected for high sun, where's the dividing line to what is high sun and whats not?

for example, some i uploaded

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=254410

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=254405

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=254403

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreject.php?id=254408

one i found in the library

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=146467

Last edited by Drewster; 06-06-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:39 PM   #2
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I don't see any problems with 254403. Being a bit gun shy after many rejections and LAHDPOP's reply in a separate post, I won't be so quick to suggest an appeal.

You can see under the well cars, there are shadows suggesting fairly high sun. While I don't see gross shadowing of the lead locomotive's trucks, there is a shadow under the radiator wing.

While I often disagree with the 'hypersensitive' rejecting for shadowing, like in your photo, that is the way things are here.
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:55 PM   #3
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4410/4403 seem to have the best chance, but for whatever reason, the lights on the UP train look purplish to me and that' more of a killer in my eyes than the cropping or high sun.

I think the main giveaway of high sun is shadows on the trucks. In these two shots, the trucks look like they are in the sun.

Another giveaway is the length of shadows on the ground. These shadows don't look too short, but the angle of the shadows on the nose of the BNSF unit suggests a higher sun angle than say late in the day/early evening. This shot looks like it was taken on the borderline of high sun vs. not high sun, but where is the borderline? I don't know and that's where the subjectiveness of that reject comes into play. It's up to the screener. I've had shots that were rejected that were taken at or after 1800L for high sun, but were overturned on appeal since it would be physically impossible to have a high sun at that time.

So basically, if the trucks are shadowed or all shadows on or around the train are pointing straight down, it's probably going to be high sun. In ND, anything after 1530L or so starts to get out of the high sun reject area, but it varies with latitude. In other words, there's no concrete way to tell for sure, but the shadows are your best teller...
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Old 06-06-2006, 10:06 PM   #4
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Hahahaha "High Sun" gotta love it...I think the last UP one has the best chance because it is in no way poorly lit! The sun is at an angle toward the side of the locomotive as one can tell by looking at the ground to the righ tof the engine. The right trucks of the engines are lit, they are grey not black. The sun woul dhave to almost be set in order to get under the well cars. You did the right thing by getting a higher vantage point to try to prevent the "high sun" by showing roof detail. The cropping is too tight IMO but it still isn't "rejectable" the way you have it. Try to lighten the whole photo a bit too it may get underexposed if resubmitted or appealed. Good luck.
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Old 06-06-2006, 11:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busyEMT
Being a bit gun shy after many rejections and LAHDPOP's reply in a separate post....
You mean I've got you thinking about it? Or that I offended you? If I offended, or rubbed the wrong way (So To Speak), sorry.
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Old 06-07-2006, 01:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAHDPOP
You mean I've got you thinking about it? Or that I offended you? If I offended, or rubbed the wrong way (So To Speak), sorry.
In an attempt to not stray too far off topic, no, you did not offend me. In the last week I have submitted nearly 15 photos, most of which were rejected for "high sun." Some had equal shadowing under the radiator wings, others had shadowing on the pilot. As with Ween, my photos were before 1100 and after 1500, leaving me less confident in understanding the high sun rejection.

But that is what the forums are here for, learning and improving.
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Old 06-07-2006, 03:56 AM   #7
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Congrats on getting this one accepted.
Image © Andrew Robb
PhotoID: 146566
Photograph © Andrew Robb
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:16 AM   #8
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thanks for the help guys, found a farther zoomed in photo of that train, it looked a lot better anyway, and fixed the cropping. now another question, do you think this one is acceptable, it's more of a roster shot, but the high elevation, doesnt show much of the high sun




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Old 06-07-2006, 05:34 PM   #9
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Image © Alex Ramos
PhotoID: 146594
Photograph © Alex Ramos


Well, it's not yours, but this shot got in...
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:37 PM   #10
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hmm, mine that was almost identical that was uploaded before was rejected for high sun, but, that one got in without a hassle. umm.......

Last edited by Drewster; 06-07-2006 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 06-08-2006, 03:24 AM   #11
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I can't speak for anyone else, I have two ways of determining if the sun is "too high" for good even lighting.

A) One hand technique:

1. Hold your hand vertically out in front of you (on it's side), your pinky finger should be paralell with the ground. Spread your hand wide, you'll notice that your thumb is now at a right angle to the ground as well. Your pinky finger will be position 1 (sunrise/sunset) and your thumb will be position 5 (high noon).

2. Turn to face directly at the sun keeping your hand in this position, straighten your arm so it too is paralell to the ground and look at your hand.

3. Now try to visualize an imaginary line from the tips of your fingers to the sun. Try to determine where the sun lies in this "scale". Generally speaking, if it is anything above a position angle of 4, it's going to be too high. As the sun gets lower on the "scale" the lighting will improve.


B) Shadow technique (not as reliable, but quicker reference for those grab shots)

Turn your back directly to the sun, and locate your shadow, the longer the shadow, the better the sun position angle. Inversely, the shorter the shadow, the higher the sun angle.

These are just techniques I learned along time ago, they've always worked for me. I'm sure somewhere on the web you can GOOGLE a better explanation if you don't understand my gibberish. LOL

Hope that helps,
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Old 06-08-2006, 04:39 AM   #12
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My general guide is the sun is high if it's A) between 11am and 3pm in the summer months, and B) If an object casts an equal shaddow in all directions. Basically if a tree has shade only right under it the sun is high.
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:31 AM   #13
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I look at the rails. If there is a big shadow under the 'lip' on the side closest to me, then I know it's a high sun.
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