Old 06-03-2008, 01:26 AM   #1
Aaron Jors
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I recently had this photo rejected for... Poor lighting (Cloudy): Common angle cloudy day shots of common/standard power are generally not accepted.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=531100&key=0

Last edited by Aaron Jors; 06-03-2008 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:37 AM   #2
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Pulling outher people's shots out of the database and saying how bad they are when compared to yours will get you no sympathy and little help.

I will say is the lighting in your shot is poor. It looks like the sun was being filtered through some high and/or thin clouds.

Quote:
First off there is no way to tell it was cloudy out because there is no sky in the photo.
By that logic, you'd never be able to tell if the sun angle was high since you can't see the sun in relation to the horizon in a shot. For either case, the shadows give it away, not the visible sky. Your shot has poor light.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:42 AM   #3
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Ok, I will try to help you understand. First of all, if you can't tell the difference between a cloudy day shot and sunny day shot, you need to study the photos a little closer. There are these things called "shadows" that are evident with a very distinct appearance when the sun is shining, and these "shadows" help you identify if there is sun shining or not when the sky is not visible.

Now, comparing your reject with these two photos shows a CLEAR difference in lighting. Yours was obviously taken on a cloudy day, or when a cloud was in front of the sun, and the two photos in the database were obviously taken when the sun was shining.

As far as whether those shots are technically inferior to yours, well I guess that's just a matter of personal opinion.

However, there is no arguing that fact that lighting in your shot isn't as good as the others.

By the way, you should consider yourself lucky and not be bitching about your above photo being rejected after getting this one accepted yesterday:


Image © Aaron Jors - www.aaroncjors.smugmug.com
PhotoID: 237707
Photograph © Aaron Jors - www.aaroncjors.smugmug.com




By the way, why are your pictures so small?

Last edited by JimThias; 06-03-2008 at 03:37 AM. Reason: by request
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:45 AM   #4
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The water mark location in that photo is horrible.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Pulling outher people's shots out of the database and saying how bad they are when compared to yours will get you no sympathy and little help.

I will say is the lighting in your shot is poor. It looks like the sun was being filtered through some high and/or thin clouds.



By that logic, you'd never be able to tell if the sun angle was high since you can't see the sun in relation to the horizon in a shot. For either case, the shadows give it away, not the visible sky. Your shot has poor light.
Ween I am not saying that anybody's shots are poor shots I'm just comparing different elements in the photos for comparison sake. I mean no disrespect to them and am certainly not looking for your sympathy.

In regards to your comment you are correct that the sun was filtered through some clouds from the front left side hence the slight shadow on the right side of the locomotive. What I don't understand is how filter light through clouds is poor light. What the clouds are preventing is a photo that has harsh shadows which for the most part is a cardinal rule in photography don't shoot in high sun.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:54 AM   #6
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What the clouds are preventing is a photo that has harsh shadows which for the most part is a cardinal rule in photography don't shoot in high sun.
Apples and oranges. RP likes blue sky, sunny day shots. But, a bright blue clear sunny sky does not equal high sun. You're getting the terms confused. But you're right, RP hates high sun shots (~1000L thru 1500L). Short horizontal shadows, long vertical ones...bad.

Quote:
Ween I am not saying that anybody's shots are poor shots I'm just comparing different elements in the photos for comparison sake.
Calling someone's shots inferior, even if in technical standards, is not good form, it has a negative connotation, espeicially if the original photographer hasn't offered up their work for critique on the forums. Some will disagree, but that's their call.

Quote:
I found 3 photos from the same angle that from a technical standpoint are inferior to my shot.
Let your shot and argument stand on their own...don't compare with someone else's because while you may have a point, you have to remember that screening shots is done by humans and there's that element of error to factor in. You may be comparing your with the exception, not the standard. Same with older shots...the acceptance standards were different back then than they are now.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:56 AM   #7
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I'm curious to hear what he thinks are technically inferior about them.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
That's rich! You're kidding, right? No, really...tell us you're kidding!



Calm down...take a breather...just relax for a moment...



Two things: One, it's not terribly exposed. Two, the effect created from the exhaust looks cool, and I'm sure many others will agree.




Ok, I will try to help you understand. First of all, if you can't tell the difference between a cloudy day shot and sunny day shot, you need to study the photos a little closer. There are these things called "shadows" that are evident with a very distinct appearance when the sun is shining, and these "shadows" help you identify if there is sun shining or not when the sky is not visible.

Now, comparing your reject with these two photos shows a CLEAR difference in lighting. Yours was obviously taken on a cloudy day, or when a cloud was in front of the sun, and the two photos in the database were obviously taken when the sun was shining.

As far as whether those shots are technically inferior to yours, well I guess that's just a matter of personal opinion.

However, there is no arguing that fact that lighting in your shot isn't as good as the others.

By the way, you should consider yourself lucky and not be bitching about your above photo being rejected after getting this one accepted yesterday:

Image © Aaron Jors - www.aaroncjors.smugmug.com
PhotoID: 237707
Photograph © Aaron Jors - www.aaroncjors.smugmug.com


By the way, why are your pictures so small?
Jim I understand the idea of shadows and my photo does have a shadow just a more subtle shadow. Maybe I instead of terrible exposed I should have said shot in harsh light.

I guess I just don't understand the vast acceptence of shots that are taken in the high sun in harsh light. It's pure opinion but to me the harsh light in photos just doesn't work.

What's wrong with the CN shot, it was taken in soft sunseting light? I'm not bitching just trying to see if I can understand the logic here and so far I guess what I have learned so far in photography is different than most here.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
I'm curious to hear what he thinks are technically inferior about them.
Jim what I think are techinically inferior is the fact that they are shot in harsh light. The last two photos have no depth to them as there is only a small shadow under the trains and also they are not sharp throughout the photo.

Take a look at the trees and the ballast which are simply not sharp throughout the photo.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
I'm not bitching just trying to see if I can understand the logic here and so far I guess what I have learned so far in photography is different than most here.
Direct sunlight is harsh? What do you define as harsh light...maybe we can combine your background/terms with the railfan background/terms to help you see the (not-so-harsh) light!
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:08 AM   #11
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Poor lighting as in FLAT light , forget the clouds part, Cant make it sunny but the WB is a bit blue to. this shot of mine was shot down for the same poor light, oh well.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Direct sunlight is harsh? What do you define as harsh light...maybe we can combine your background/terms with the railfan background/terms to help you see the (not-so-harsh) light!
Ween yes when the sun it high in the sky the light is harsh. I guess I get this from my landscape photo background but I belive the best shots are taken at sunrise and sunset.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
What's wrong with the CN shot, it was taken in soft sunseting light? I'm not bitching just trying to see if I can understand the logic here and so far I guess what I have learned so far in photography is different than most here.
There is nothing wrong with the photo, but for RP standards, it's a prime example of a backlit shot. The only reason I think it skated in was for the slight...VERY slight sunset glint on the side and the rails. To me it's not enough to overlook the backlit nature of it, but I'm not a screener, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Jim what I think are techinically inferior is the fact that they are shot in harsh light. The last two photos have no depth to them as there is only a small shadow under the trains and also they are not sharp throughout the photo.

Take a look at the trees and the ballast which are simply not sharp throughout the photo.
When you said "technically inferior," I thought you were referring to the compositional nature of the photos. So you're saying "technically inferior" refers to the lighting?

Please define harsh light. It's quite obvious both of these images were taken when the sun was LOW. Look at how short the shadows of the grab bars are on the front of both locomotives. So I disagree...the lighting is pretty superb in these shots. The only "harsh" thing about these photos is that they have black locomotives in them.

Also, why are your photos so small?
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Ween yes when the sun it high in the sky the light is harsh. I guess I get this from my landscape photo background but I belive the best shots are taken at sunrise and sunset.
No, you're right...harsh light (called high sun here) is bad. Maybe you missed this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
RP likes blue sky, sunny day shots. But, a bright blue clear sunny sky does not equal high sun. You're getting the terms confused. But you're right, RP hates high sun shots (~1000L thru 1500L). Short horizontal shadows, long vertical ones...bad.
But, clouds don't change the fact that it's high sun. If anything, on RP, cloud-filtered light is usually not accepted, whether it's high sun or evening, low sun.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Ween yes when the sun it high in the sky the light is harsh. I guess I get this from my landscape photo background but I belive the best shots are taken at sunrise and sunset.
Well, the lighting in those two photos is closer to sunset/sunrise than mid-day harsh, high sunlight. Again, look at the length of the grab bar shadows...they are VERY short, implying that the sun is at a low angle.

The first shot is Feb 6 at 3:10pm (if his exif is correct). That time of the day on Feb 6, it's less than three hours from sunset. That's definitely not harsh light.

Last edited by JimThias; 06-03-2008 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
There is nothing wrong with the photo, but for RP standards, it's a prime example of a backlit shot. The only reason I think it skated in was for the slight...VERY slight sunset glint on the side and the rails. To me it's not enough to overlook the backlit nature of it, but I'm not a screener, either.



When you said "technically inferior," I thought you were referring to the compositional nature of the photos. So you're saying "technically inferior" refers to the lighting?

Please define harsh light. It's quite obvious both of these images were taken when the sun was LOW. Look at how short the shadows of the grab bars are on the front of both locomotives. So I disagree...the lighting is pretty superb in these shots. The only "harsh" thing about these photos is that they have black locomotives in them.

Also, why are your photos so small?
Jim Im not sure if I'm understanding this correctly but are you saying that the sun was low in the sky for the 2 shots?

If so I completely disagree as there is only a small shadow under the locomotive. If the sun was low in these shots their would be a shadow that extended to either the right or left which there is not. To me these shots were taken at high sun and have harsh lighting. You can also tell by the way the sun is relecting on the locomotives that the light was harsh.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:20 AM   #17
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Aaron, the shots you have on RPNet are some of my favorite and your rejected shot doesn't even compare.

1. I didn't even look at the referenced shots because it doesn't matter.

2. The shot is drab with all the leafless brown plant life and no color.

3. NS black units stand out really poorly in harsh and/or poor lighting.

4. I would place the watermark elsewear or like me, quit using it.

I would let this shot sit a day or two and then go back and look at it. I bet you will see what we see. Sounds like you are like me and sometimes get attached to a photo because of the story we have in our heads of taking it.

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Old 06-03-2008, 02:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Well, the lighting in those two photos is closer to sunset/sunrise than mid-day harsh, high sunlight. Again, look at the length of the grab bar shadows...they are VERY short, implying that the sun is at a low angle.

The first shot is Feb 6 at 3:10pm (if his exif is correct). That time of the day on Feb 6, it's less than three hours from sunset. That's definitely not harsh light.
Jim no way I'm 99% positive these were shot at high sun. Even look at the back of the locomotive where the part kind of extends off the locomotive. Under that part there is a shadow. That shadow wouldn't be there if the sun was high in the sky.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Jim Im not sure if I'm understanding this correctly but are you saying that the sun was low in the sky for the 2 shots?

If so I completely disagree as there is only a small shadow under the locomotive. If the sun was low in these shots their would be a shadow that extended to either the right or left which there is not. To me these shots were taken at high sun and have harsh lighting. You can also tell by the way the sun is relecting on the locomotives that the light was harsh.
What the heck does the amount of sun shining under the locomotive have to do with how high or low the sun is? Well, in the case of THESE photos, NOTHING. It's obvious to me what the sun angle is in these shots...it's in back of the photographer. The grab bar shadows are very short and tight, meaning the sun angle is more direct to the front of the train, and less on the side, hence less light shining under the locomotive.

Again, if these shots were in high sun (technically impossible at 3:10pm on Feb 6), then the grab bar shadow would be LONG. How are you not comprehending that?
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Jim no way I'm 99% positive these were shot at high sun.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Jim 3 hours from sunset is a long way in my opinion. If the sun was lower in the sky there would be a shadow cast on the right side which there is not. I guess we just have different opinions on light which is ok.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:28 AM   #22
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If the sun was low in these shots their would be a shadow that extended to either the right or left which there is not.
You're not helping yourself. These are not high sun. Where would the shadow be if the sun was down the tracks, directly on the nose of the lead unit?

Just for the sake of argument/understanding where you're coming from, does this shot have harsh light?
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Jim 3 hours from sunset is a long way in my opinion. I guess we just have different opinions on light which is ok.
Ok, perhaps it's less than 2 hours from sunset. One photo is early Feb, the other is late November. Depending on the time of sunset in this location at these times of the year, it could very well be 2 hours or less from sunset. That being said, that little time before sunset at these times of the years means a LOW lighting angle.

Aaron, stop for a second and listen to what I'm saying about this:

The grab bars. Look at them. Look at their shadows. They are VERY short. That is THE one tell-tale sign of the sun angle and how high it is in the sky. Nothing else in the photo is as telling of the sun angle than the grab bar shadows.

The sun is in back of the photographer, low in the sky and almost directly head on with the train.

Head on, high sun = long shadows
Head on, low sun = short shadows

It doesn't get any more obvious than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
If the sun was lower in the sky there would be a shadow cast on the right side which there is not.
Aaron, you are completely dismissing the angle of the train to the sun. I already stated that it's obvious the train is closer to a head on lighting angle. Thus, there will be less light on the side of the train.

Last edited by JimThias; 06-03-2008 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
You're not helping yourself. These are not high sun. Where would the shadow be if the sun was down the tracks, directly on the nose of the lead unit?

Just for the sake of argument/understanding where you're coming from, does this shot have harsh light?
Image © Chris Paulhamus
PhotoID: 237861
Photograph © Chris Paulhamus
Ween that is a tough to call the light is certainly not soft but you did a good job handling the light and exposing the photo correctly. I think its a good shot.

I think it also helps that the subject is front lit and you don't have any of the sharp angles to get hotspots and blown out areas.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Jors
Ween that is a tough to call the light is certainly not soft but you did a good job handling the light and exposing the photo correctly. I think its a good shot.

I think it also helps that the subject is front lit and you don't have any of the sharp angles to get hotspots and blown out areas.
The sun angle in Chris's shot is almost identical to that of the two NS shots.
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