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Old 09-10-2007, 06:35 PM   #26
Ween
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I believe there are different expectations when submitting to a magazine. Doesn't one expect a small fee if their work is used in a publication? Well, that's not the case when uploading here. If anything, we're providing revenue for the site without expecting anything in return, other than perhaps personal satisfaction and decent exposure if you care about that sort of thing.
True, monetary compensation is one of the benefits that a magazine publication has over RP, no denying that. But, the people who do submit their photos here do get something in return which you already mentioned: exposure and name recognition. There have been numerous folks who have had photos published by an editor or someone perusing the database looking for rail photos. The only money the site sees in that is the ad revenue; you, the photographer, are the one who gets to cash the check.

Plus, while photography is a personal endevour, it's nice to share your work with other folks. RP offers one of the best methods to ensure that your work gets seen by many folks outside of your normal circle of friends. It's a place to showcase your work; it doesn't get mired down in thousands of less-than-ideal photos like you see on other sites.

Likewise, my photos here have drawn many folks to my Yahoo! Group and the information that has been shared from various people from across the country (and even from other countires) would not have flowed as freely had they not seen my photos or clicked on links leading them to my Group.

So, while I am providing revenue to the site, it's not a one-way flow of compensation. Just because it's not lining my pockets by uploading here doesn't mean that I'm not benefitting from it...
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Well, this forum is full of helpful people. Show us your rejections! Learn from us; I learned a lot when I started out here, and still learn week-in week-out. I appreciate the frustration; it isn't always easy to figure out the reasons for rejection until you have seen them in play for a while (which one does if one reads these forums a lot, BTW). It helps to get a second opinion from a friendly person who is willing to respond to a post. This forum is full of such people.
It's head-scratching though when you tell someone what's wrong with a shot and how to fix it but they don't listen and would rather play the victim.

I'm still confused how you can be "nickel and dimed" from something that's free?
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rustyrail
Is getting one's photos posted here worth all of this? I say no...
If you're not willing to get your photos up to RP standards, then you should just leave. I don't think many people will miss you, there are enough complainers here.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:25 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
It helps to get a second opinion from a friendly person who is willing to respond to a post. This forum is full of such people.
Agreed...friendly second opinions are very helpful.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
If you're not willing to get your photos up to RP standards, then you should just leave. I don't think many people will miss you, there are enough complainers here.
Ouch, dude....
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:30 PM   #31
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OK, since Wet has started another thread with his pix, time to stop piling on!
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:08 PM   #32
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First off, yes, I did look at the changes and I couldn't hardly notice a difference.

The greens are a little less saturated, but then again, that's personal taste or perhaps your monitor renders colors slightly differently. On my monitors the original does not appear to be soft on the major details I look at on a locomotive to judge sharpness. The "softness" on the road-railers is a product of the depth of field and was intentional. Light was over my left shoulder so the light would have been on the opposite side of the road-railers that were visible. I'll ask NS to reverse the curve so the light will be more agreeable for the RP screeners.

I will say that this is the first time I have openly vented my frustration about the screening on this site, and I've had PLENTY of rejects. Some I saw (and knew ahead of time) why they were rejected. Those taught me to be more picky about what I submitted. I appealed a few where I felt it was a difference in monitor calibration or some other technical (exposure, color, defocus, etc) reason, trying to get the perspective of the screener or I was trying to get the screener to realize what I was doing with the shot.

I have no problem asking for help...but good lord, when they start bouncing stuff because of MINOR issues (that are HIGHLY subjective) that I have to make almost non-perceptible changes, then its nit-picking.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:26 PM   #33
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I have no problem asking for help...but good lord, when they start bouncing stuff because of MINOR issues (that are HIGHLY subjective) that I have to make almost non-perceptible changes, then its nit-picking.
Well, there were numerous people who also saw the green tint to your shot (and it's not just the green of the leaves...the black on the lead NS unit looks green-ish to me on 3 different monitors) as well as the image being a little soft. Minor? Maybe, but those two things were noticed by several folks, so where do you draw the line between a 'minor' flaw and something that doesn't make the database?

In your mind, it's nit-picking, but I'm sure to the screeners it's weeding out a shot that has the potential of being better. And FWIW, it's already been said, but photography itself is SUBJECTIVE. There's no right way and no wrong way to do it. One person's judgement of what's a good photo or bad photo carries no more weight than anyone else's except when you put it in the context that you're uploading your photos to someone else's site. It's their call as to what gets the thumb's up and what doesn't. Getting angry about it gets you no where. Just take photos, have an open mind and be willing to accept criticism, and the rest will take care of itself...
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:06 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
There is just too much to respond to so all I'm going to say is a little modesty goes a long way. Don't think your stuff is God's gift to the hobby and you'll improve.
That is incredibly true. We all have at least some room for improvement because noone is perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
There is just too much to respond to so all I'm going to say is a little modesty goes a long way. Don't think your stuff is God's gift to the hobby and you'll improve.

FWIW, screeners can't see or know what time a photo was taken unless it is put in the UNDERUTILIZED "Comment to Screener" section.
I was not aware of this and have made a mental note. I wondered why one photo was accepted then the second one (taken five to ten minutes later) was rejected. I was always under the impression that when you allowed the EXIF Data to be viewed publicly a screener could see it in the screening process.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJ
I was not aware of this and have made a mental note. I wondered why one photo was accepted then the second one (taken five to ten minutes later) was rejected. I was always under the impression that when you allowed the EXIF Data to be viewed publicly a screener could see it in the screening process.
There is more to say in the comments than just EXIF info like the time. One thing I will mention with some frequency is my decision regarding what to level on when the horizon is not obvious. If it is an unusual crop/composition, I might write a sentence on what I am trying to do. I'm trying to guide the screener to see what I see. Of course, they will kick it anyway, but then I know it was not for a lack of understanding!
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:09 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BartY
As I stated, I haven't posted anything in nearly 2 years but I thought I'd give RP another try to see if things had improved in the screening process.
They have, they've gotten tougher.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
If it is an unusual crop/composition, I might write a sentence on what I am trying to do. I'm trying to guide the screener to see what I see.
Everyone who has ever wondered about a "bad motive" rejection take note of these two sentences! Explaining what you are trying to achieve gives the screener a different way of looking at it other than their own. Of course, it may not work for the particular screener, but maybe, just maybe, you will cause them to go "Oh, ok, I see it now".

Thanks for the backup, Michael and J!

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They have, they've gotten tougher.
Hahaha! Very nice, Warren! =)
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJ
I was always under the impression that when you allowed the EXIF Data to be viewed publicly a screener could see it in the screening process.
EXIF data doesn't mean anything... there's no rule that says a camera has to stay in its "home" time zone. There are plenty of photos on the site taken, for example, by Europeans visiting the U.S., and the EXIF says that beautifully bright shot was taken at 1:30am!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
If you're not willing to get your photos up to RP standards, then you should just leave. I don't think many people will miss you, there are enough complainers here.
Here, here!

In the time he spent writing just one of the four posts in this thread telling us all how wonderful his shot was, the levels could've been adjusted to remove the obvious green tint (see the white NS stripes on the engine), the photo sharpened (the nose of the lead unit is soft, I don't care what anyone says) and the photo could've been accepted.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:51 PM   #39
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Just to satisfy my own curiosities about perception, I decided to take a color sample from the white on the nose of the originally rejected image, and put it on a pure white background in Photoshop. Now, we know the white on the nose of a locomotive isn't going to be "pure white," but it's going to be close.

Here's what I found. Looks green to me!
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:05 AM   #40
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I just had to throw my two cents in and agree with BartY and rustyrail - that is a great shot the way it stands and I'm glad that RP has this forum so that as a railfan I can still enjoy a photo like this even though it was rejected. The bottom line is RP is to be commended for all that they do but it is a fact that the screening process is inconsistent. Hopefully this thread may cause the screeners/administrators to realize that yes, they have a great website but there still is room for improvement!
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:11 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainshooter
Hopefully this thread may cause the screeners/administrators to realize that yes, they have a great website but there still is room for improvement!
As is there in any individual's photography.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:18 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Trainshooter
The bottom line is RP is to be commended for all that they do but it is a fact that the screening process is inconsistent. Hopefully this thread may cause the screeners/administrators to realize that yes, they have a great website but there still is room for improvement!
We realize that the screening process isn't perfect, but we also realize that it's never going to be.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- we're human, and inconsistencies are going to happen. Even if I screened every photo that was submitted here personally, inconsistencies would happen.. that's the nature of the best. Those of us who screen photos have good days, and we have bad ones. When people are involved in any subjective decision making process, consistency is not going to be 100% perfect. All we can do is try to minimize those inconstencies the best we know how, which is something we constantly attempt to do.

Quote:
I just had to throw my two cents in and agree with BartY and rustyrail - that is a great shot the way it stands and I'm glad that RP has this forum so that as a railfan I can still enjoy a photo like this even though it was rejected.
While it's nice that you like the shot as is, it clearly has several flaws which could have easily been corrected by the photographer if he was so inclined. Why anyone would want to upload an image such as this, which could easily be improved with a little work, boggles my mind. Wouldn't you want to put your best face forward? I know I do!

There are plenty of sites out there where anyone can upload virtually any photo of a train and it'll get put on display. What good would we be doing anyone here if we decided to become just another one of those sites? With over 170,000 photos in our database from 3500+ photographers and over 200 countries, surely our standards are not that difficult to achieve!
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:40 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kilroy
Here's what I found. Looks green to me!
It does depend on the monitor. I can only see it if I look very close. If I were on the other computer, I'm sure I could see it easily enough. Perhaps the other person simply can't see it.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Well, this forum is full of helpful people.
Fanboys, in other words.

Just for kicks, I did a search on NS Dash 9s. There are 7096 of them on this board which tends to discount the theory that RP has a bias against them.

As for the shot in question, I could go eiher way on it. There is indeed some obvious high sun there and there is a shadow on the side of the ballast that keeps drawing my eye to it. It's not a bad shot by any stretch, but it's not a great shot either, certaily not one I would lose any sleep over.


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Old 09-11-2007, 01:07 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
As is there in any individual's photography.
And RP does exactly that - encourage photogs to improve. You get a reject, so you work in the future to correct that problem on the next shot.

My first shot in the database is one of my favorites I have on the site, but the crop is very different now than it was originally. After I got more used to cropping photos by the rule of thirds, I found the shot quite unbalanced. Even though I knew it was uploaded in early 2006, I was surprised that RP accepted the original crop. The resubmitted copy that is in the database looks a lot better, IMO, and I am able to recognize that because of RP - helping me to improve.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:10 AM   #46
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I'll quote Andrew in saying there is too much to respond to here, however, if we stick to the original issue it's not so bad.

The photo in my eyes is on par or above typical RP submissions.

It comes down to two issues;

1) Variance in tastes and tolerences between 4 screeners (which is a rather large amount). Though, we should recall and appreciate, and utilize the appeal process. I think this would have been a moot point had the photo been appealed. Bringing it to the forum for a second opinion was intelligent, perhaps the wording was not. But, such wording is typical after a rejection that seems uncalled for. Tit for tat.

2) Improper rejection reasons (and the following ping pong game).
Poor Lighting (High Sun): The angle of the sunlight is too high, a common problem in the summer months of year on mid-day shots.

If you state this and it is not true, how can you not expect frustration?
I'm not a screener but I think I'd attempt some detail on such a borderline rejection. Or just accept it if it is so unobvious. Isn't there an "other" check box where you can detail your thoughts? Or a better rejection line that is more accurate?

Note also that in attempting to justify the rejection, no one but MikeB pointed out the original rejection issue.

As for the white on the nose - here's what I got in CS2.
It looked good to me, here's a sample from the nose on a pure white background.


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Old 09-11-2007, 01:16 AM   #47
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:17 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I'm not an admin, but I believe it has been explicitly stated that appeals go to a different screener.
The appeals go to the admin (Chris K. or Chris S.). The original screening can be done by either of them or by J.E., Robert, or Andrew (at least this is how I understand it?).
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:24 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by BartY
Let me say this, there are more than a few much more talented photogs than I who have had enough with RP.net and have gone elsewhere, mainly because of junk like this. They're getting tired of being nickel and dimed to death because of a stray shadow on a coupler, truck or someone whining about contrast or color saturation that doesn't fit their personal view of how a photo is supposed to look.
Then they must not want to work real hard for a larger amount of people to see their work. Is it really difficult to just get a nicely composed shot? Even just a wedgie? Not hard at all. And for those who complain about wedgies, it's funny how many non-RP contributors [who post lower quality photos on other sites/groups/etc] write that if you want to find perfect, sunny-lit 3/4 wedgies, you're gonna have to look elsewhere, becuase they were shooting on a cloudy day. It's because they enjoy 3/4 wedges, and they're the type of shot they want to get. In other words, when they come to RP, they'll find the exact kind of image they want, the most common, "boring old" 3/4 wedge shot.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:28 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
BTW, how can it be "humiliating" to resubmit? It's private, no one will ever know.
Perhaps why some people requested that rejected photos of other users no longer be able to be viewed? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. In fact, there are plenty of rejected photos I've seen that I actually quite enjoy. Just because a photo has to be resubmitted or doesn't make it to RP at all doesn't mean that it's not a good photo.
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