Old 05-23-2008, 05:09 PM   #1
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I had sent this shot in a few days ago and it got accepted. Then i got an email from a RR employee, not of the RR in the shot, but another railroad saying that i shouldnt have posted it. I had Rp pull it.



There were about 5 or 6 railfans taking pictures there. There was also a few of the RR employees there who gave us the ok to shoot there. The train is tied down and on a dead end siding.

Was i wrong in posting it because the person is standing on the tracks while they are taking a pciture of the nose?

I am on the fence on whether to resubmit it. Any input would be appreciated.

Tom
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:34 PM   #2
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I'd be on the fence about this too, but I would have left it up. Railroad employees have been disciplined or possibly even fired for rules violations that showed up in photographs online. But I don't see any railroad employees breaking rules in this shot (or any period), so no one would be implicated. I think the only person who might catch some heat might be the Special Agent ("Where were you when this guy was on the tracks?") but in my limited experience, railroads are fairly forgiving when it comes to special stuff. During a UP steam run a couple years back, the Special Agent followed the train and just made sure no one did anything REALLY stupid. During stops there were people all over the tracks taking shots of 844, but he was more for crowd control. I'm sure this is a similar situation, and I'd resubmit.

Nice shot, BTW.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:43 PM   #3
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I may be wrong, but this could be one the the slippery terrains, where you better keep off. - As I heard/red railroads like to keep (and they have to for keeping their customers) a very clean image of themselves. There are certainly some subjects they may be very sensitive about.
For example you should beware of posting a picture with a RR employee without wearing its correct security equipment and where you may recognize the person; it might be punished by its employer.
For your picture I must say that my first impression was a slight shock: "What does this person there?" - Finding itself in front of a locomotive looks altheway dangerous for this person (fortunately non identifiable), as a kind of a suicide candidate .
For a railroad this looks more to encourage people of doing the same - and they can't like this at all.
If children see this and you tell them afterwards that tresspassing is illegal, what will they believe?...
For my photography opinion I must say that you made a very interresting picture there and that you surely may find some use for it.
Hope that you got what I wanted to exclaim and not taking this bad !
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:46 PM   #4
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I'd post it if it were mine. Except I would fix the color -- too red -- rotate the shot to make it level and lighten it up a bit. You should have left it up.


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Old 05-23-2008, 05:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy1313
For example you should beware of posting a picture with a RR employee without wearing its correct security equipment and where you may recognize the person; it might be punished by its employer.
First, I disagree with your sentiment. It's not up to me, some guy with a camera trackside, to know what rules may or may not be broken in some shot I take.

But more importantly, why do you keep calling people "it"?


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Old 05-23-2008, 05:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
First, I disagree with your sentiment. It's not up to me, some guy with a camera trackside, to know what rules may or may not be broken in some shot I take.
But more importantly, why do you keep calling people "it"?


Joe
Sorry, this seems like some flaw in my best English, I do not practise every day...
Sure, you may go the hard way and saying you didn't know this and that. There isn't everywhere written that tresspassing is forbidden, which does not give the right to do it...
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:03 PM   #7
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I apologize Kilroy. I was not thinking that you weren't from America and that Englsh might be your second language. When I wrote I shouldn't be expected to know all railroad rules, I meant in reference to what a crewman may be doing. In the shot linked above, the problem seems to be with a railfan standing on the tracks. Not the smartest thing to do and I certaily wouldn't be there especially with other cameras around, but this was a stopped train, afterall. I guess all of the railfans could be considered to be trespassing, but sheesh, if we're going to micro manage every detail, where's the fun in that? The photog said the special agent was OK with them being here, if I read that right, RP acccpeted the shot. Why are we even talking about it?


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Old 05-23-2008, 07:06 PM   #8
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That's ok Joe !
But what are we talking about? = Just giving some advice and trying to think about if posting or not this photo would give something or not.
I am sure, that this picture will bring a lot of views and we are all looking after "the" shot, but as Tom just found out before, receiving this particular e-mail; will the success of this picture not have a bitter taste later on??
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:37 PM   #9
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edit: ah, screw it...nevermind.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
It's not up to me, some guy with a camera trackside, to know what rules may or may not be broken in some shot I take.

Joe
I agree 100% which may make me seem like a bit of a d--- but hey, they shouldn't have been breaking the rules. I do know what to avoid posting for little things but if I see something that may be harmful to a co-worker on the RR, I may make it a point to bring it up. If me adding a shot to RP can make the railroad a safer place to work then I done good. =)
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:07 PM   #11
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Originally, I would've said post it since it's just a railfan, but thinking a little deeper changed my opinion. The fact of the matter is, this is a good example of your local railroad employees being friendly to railfans. Which is great, of course, except it's a two-way street - posting stuff like this will get NS' corporate offices on them in a hurry, and the fun will end rather quickly.

I would know first hand, albeit from the other monster of the East, CSX. According to them, I am some sort of "security threat" (as they've labled dozens upon dozens of railfans). Why they feel that a liking of railroading is directly linked to security threats and whatnot is beyond me - I guess my father who just finished restoring a beautiful '64 Corvair must be plotting a bank robbery with it by that mentality.

Moral of the story - savor these relationships, but also keep them quiet and NEVER do anything to jeopardize them. These employees are bending the rules to help you, the railfan, so I at least would extend them much courtesy in return...but, again, that's just me. I know some of you don't care, and just assume "Oh well, they were stupid enough to do it!" (aka biting the hand that feeds).
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
If me adding a shot to RP can make the railroad a safer place to work then I done good. =)
Adding a shot to RP that gets an employee in trouble does not make the railroad a safer place. It just makes that employee hate railfans.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:36 PM   #13
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With all due respect, the railroad employee should have told Mr. Tripod to get his rear up on the sidewalk and off the tracks. That makes no sense. And what the heck kind of shot is he getting anyway?


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Old 05-24-2008, 07:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
I'd post it if it were mine. Except I would fix the color -- too red -- rotate the shot to make it level and lighten it up a bit. You should have left it up.
One of those cases where my monitor at home was not giving me a true picture of the, well, picture. It looks mostly fine at work, though still reddish to me. I think you took a fine shot, though.


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Old 05-25-2008, 05:00 AM   #15
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I found another photo in my folder that i had taken that night. Somehow missed it looking through them the first time. This time the railfans are obeying the rules of the railroad.

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Old 05-25-2008, 01:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAMR159
Originally, I would've said post it since it's just a railfan, but thinking a little deeper changed my opinion. The fact of the matter is, this is a good example of your local railroad employees being friendly to railfans. Which is great, of course, except it's a two-way street - posting stuff like this will get NS' corporate offices on them in a hurry, and the fun will end rather quickly.

I would know first hand, albeit from the other monster of the East, CSX. According to them, I am some sort of "security threat" (as they've labled dozens upon dozens of railfans). Why they feel that a liking of railroading is directly linked to security threats and whatnot is beyond me - I guess my father who just finished restoring a beautiful '64 Corvair must be plotting a bank robbery with it by that mentality.

Moral of the story - savor these relationships, but also keep them quiet and NEVER do anything to jeopardize them. These employees are bending the rules to help you, the railfan, so I at least would extend them much courtesy in return...but, again, that's just me. I know some of you don't care, and just assume "Oh well, they were stupid enough to do it!" (aka biting the hand that feeds).

Agreed. I have a few shots of "under the radar" cab rides and from inside yards where I got the "I can't tell you that you can, but..." They are in my personal collection and will stay there.

As for Tom's photo in question, aren't those tracks actually Amtrak property? No problems from NS unless the guy with the tripod is too close and going to get clobberred by the Trunk Monkey. I think corperate knows that a special train like this is going to draw people out to see it and might turn their backs on a few minor violations. After all, why are they using them as a PR tool?
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:00 PM   #17
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The track that the NS OCS was sitting on is a dead-end stub into Pennsylvania Station. The track next to the OCS is one of NS's main routes through Pittsburgh, and one that carries most of the non high-wide traffic. I was a participant in the night photo shoot, and there were no trains through the station in the two hours that we were there. For the record, while I was not "Mr. Tripod" in the aforementioned photo (too tall to be me), there was a very good shot from rail height that required setting up between the two tracks. I would not have been able to take that shot without the direct approval of the high-ranking employees that were present.

Overall, I was throughly impressed with Norfolk Southern. Not only were they willing to graciously accommodate a few railfans, but the Police were friendly and even the CEO was friendly. Though permission was requested and granted, I won't likely post any photos taken from the tracks. The last thing I need is some self-appointed security expert emailing me about my "dangerous" behavior.
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:25 PM   #18
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Well, seeing as the forum is "low traffic" as opposed to the main site, you folks with a stake in this discussion may as well see the results. look now, because it will be gone tomorrow.

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Old 05-26-2008, 05:33 PM   #19
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I would like to start off by first stating that I was present at the night session. Well before the train ever left the barn in Altoona arrangements had been made with the proper authorities to conduct the photo shoot. As John stated, there were no trains through the area in the 2 hours we were at the station. Had a train been in the area everyone would have been well aware of it and the session would have been momentarily suspended. The entire group was supervised by high-ranking employees. We had direct approval to be where we were. Again, I would like to echo Johnís comments about the entire Norfolk Southern operation. Each person associated with NS which I dealt with during the trip went far beyond anything required to help accommodate us, including the CEO Wick Moorman.

With all of that said, you most likely will not be seeing anything I shot posted to RP.net. Not saying I post much of my material to RP to begin with. As with the original question posted as to whether or not to re-upload that photo, I would say no. Far too many people visit this site to have to explain this to each of them every time they view the image. I am sure someone would be too lazy to understand that the photo was taken with permission and might try it themselves under less safe conditions.
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Far too many people visit this site to have to explain this to each of them every time they view the image. I am sure someone would be too lazy to understand that the photo was taken with permission and might try it themselves under less safe conditions.
Since it was supervised and an NS CEO was there...PUT THAT IN THE REMARKS SECTION!

If someone e-mails and asks, just say, "Read the remarks."

For example, this shot:
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5929773

was taken in a "no photos" zone, but I had previously cleared it and went through all the wickets to make sure it was okay to publish. See the remarks section. No one ever asked about it.

The only question I get asked quite frequently though is, "Who was flying the plane?" (you have to have two qualified pilots up front, and normally on these flights there are only two). But there was an extra instructor on board, and I took photos of him up front with the other guy because I knew the question would be asked.
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:54 PM   #21
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John;

That is a great shot. I stand corrected wondering what kind of shot he was getting. Understanding more about the night, I don't think it warranted a question in the forums. It was a dead end track. Permission was granted to be there and folks from NS were around, too. A comment in the remarks section would have sufficed and a reply to the e-mailer could have taken care of it.

With the said, Tom, the second shot you loaded is actually better than the original, which was not bad at all. Those are beautiful engines and both of these shots make them stand out.


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Old 05-26-2008, 11:28 PM   #22
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If permission was granted by the CEO, as has already been said, simply put that. You guys had every right to be there. Don't bend to the will of someone uninformed about the situation. I'd re-upload the shot out of pure defiance.

As for the argument about incriminating RR employees, the argument can go either way. Should railroaders be breaking safety rules? No. However, are the rules bent/broken on an almost daily basis in order to accomplish their job? Yes. Do railroaders need one more way to worry about getting in trouble, especially when many supervisors will already go to great lengths find rules violations? No.

I'll leave you with two last thoughts. Could the railroader in your picture have a family and lose pay because you got them in trouble? Yes. Will that railroader become bitter and make it harder for railfans to railfan? Most likely.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slopes09
I'll leave you with two last thoughts. Could the railroader in your picture have a family and lose pay because you got them in trouble? Yes. Will that railroader become bitter and make it harder for railfans to railfan? Most likely.
Exactly. In this scenario, with the CEO himself being present, then by all means, post away. I was speaking thinking it was merely the local individuals putting their necks on the line for you guys.

But, I do know of several railroaders up here on CSX who HAVE been suspended due to photos posted right here on Railpictures.net by some people who are well known and liked around here (and will remain nameless). I look at it this way: it's just a photo. A majority of the time, if one of the crew members is breaking a rule, it's no big deal to just flat out not show the photo. The times it IS nice enough to show, in comes Photoshop and the clone stamp. There is only one good photo I haven't uploaded because I couldn't Photoshop the problem out, and I did out of respect for the crew and to save my own ass. May God help you if one of your photos gets a railroader in trouble and they figure out who you are...speaking from "second hand" experience (meaning I know people who've said "screw them" and posted it anyway, and they can hardly even railfan this line without having the police called on them and whatnot, for things the rest of us get away with). Yes, you can do it out of defiance, but in the end, it's just a lot easier if you chalk one up to the personal collection - capiche?
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:11 AM   #24
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I would just like to make it clear that Wick Moorman was not present at the shoot. I'm not sure how multiple people seem to have gotten that impression from my post. I was simply stating that I was impressed with the corporation as a whole during the 2 day trip. I dealt with various individuals, including Mr. Moorman, associated with NS in some form during the trip and most of them were very friendly and represented the company well.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
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I would just like to make it clear that Wick Moorman was not present at the shoot.
Wow, that's wack that Wick wasn't there.

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