Old 05-01-2007, 10:11 AM   #1
Tåg
Senior Member
 
Tåg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 263
Default So I was wondering

It seems like railfans like the BNSF, but not the UP. I cannot figure out why. Can anybody fill me in? I know I'm a little biased, but discuss.
__________________
Bob
Tåg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 11:12 AM   #2
cfquinlan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 6
Default

I think railroads are like sports teams. Everyone has their favorites. They may like the other teams a little , but they still talk a little smack now and then. You think UP has it bad, I'm an Amtrak guy so I hear the trash talk all the time.

Chris
cfquinlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 05:27 PM   #3
SD70MACMAN
The man with the plan
 
SD70MACMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 375
Send a message via AIM to SD70MACMAN
Default

You raise an interesting question Tag! I to have pondered this question.

Maybe it has something to do with the vastness of the UP and BNSF being more accessible to those of us around it. Or perhaps more picturesque. Maybe people for some reason or another are more interested in trains on the west side of the US than the east side.

UP is probably a fav b/c its got history and when most people think railroads, they think Union Pacific. BNSF...well, I have no idea. Colorful? Interesting? They sure do have interesting power to throw at you.

Nothing wrong with Amtrak. Its interesting and makes a good chase. Most importantly, its not another intermodal train. Amtrak Cascades makes for some good train watchin' here in the Northwest with the Talgo trainsets. They look really nice. If only the dang thing could run on time but Julie is always willing to help
__________________
~Mike Bjork

UP's new slogan for Amtrak:
"We'll help you spread you wings and fly right into a siding!"

TRAINS TRAINS TRAINS!!! May the fun never end!
I'm a traitor! Im on JP.net! But all my plane shots involve trains!

BN FOREVER!
SD70MACMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 05:35 PM   #4
Mike B.
Banned
 
Mike B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,343
Default

I hate the UP.
Mike B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 08:37 PM   #5
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tåg
It seems like railfans like the BNSF, but not the UP. I cannot figure out why. Can anybody fill me in? I know I'm a little biased, but discuss.
Can you fill me in on the basis for your statement?

Here in the east, the two seem, at least to me!, interchangeable. We are glad to see run-through power from either. As for me personally, I view the UP paint scheme as one of the classics, perhaps #2 on my all-time list behind Chessie (which I obviously love but which is too colorful/bold to be "classy"). So I prefer UP.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 10:37 PM   #6
Tåg
Senior Member
 
Tåg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
I hate the UP.
Why? I hate American Idol, and I can give you 100 reasons why.
__________________
Bob
Tåg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 10:55 PM   #7
CNWFreak
Senior Member
 
CNWFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 98
Default

Personally I love the Union Pacific. I have never had problems with any of their crews, and sometimes I even get a friendly wave. They also do a great job of perserving/donating historic locomotives.
__________________
Patrick

Railpictures.net


RR Picture Archives
CNWFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2007, 11:34 PM   #8
nwrails
Junior Member
 
nwrails's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 27
Default

Don't forget, it's usually also the same people who say how much they hate the Union Pacific, blah blah blah... But drool over the Union Pacific Heritage Collection (844,3986,6936,etc) when it comes to town...

Regarding issues with the railroad's... Honestly, I don't really care... While I do feel there's a issue regarding Amtrak/UP and I feel some improvement is needed. But I really don't feel like acting like a idiot and creating BS and arguing with other idiots.

Maybe if I was a shipper/customer, employee or shareholder with the Union Pacific or any other railroad then I might feel I have a right to complain about services or other matters, but since I'm not, I've got nothing to complain about!

Daniel
nwrails is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 02:12 AM   #9
Warren
Senior Member
 
Warren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Posts: 287
Send a message via MSN to Warren
Default

Quote:
Don't forget, it's usually also the same people who say how much they hate the Union Pacific, blah blah blah... But drool over the Union Pacific Heritage Collection (844,3986,6936,etc) when it comes to town...
I thought some people's dislike of the Union Pacific was because of the the way they took over all those other railroads, and they drool over the Heritage Collection because they miss them.
__________________
Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Click Here to view my videos at rail-videos.net
My webshots photos
Warren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 04:57 AM   #10
ssw9662
Senior Member
 
ssw9662's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 839
Default

NS and CSX was met with the same reaction by railfans when Conrail was split as when UP took over SP, MP, WP, etc. I'm a Conrail fan, so I wasn't very happy with the split when it first happened. Now, I've simply got to the point that I don't really care what a railroad does or what their power is, since these railroads are in the business to make money rather than please railfans.
__________________
Austin
Canon EOS 7D
Canon 70-200mm f/4 L
Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Canon 50mm f/1.8
My Railpictures.net Photos
flickr

Last edited by ssw9662; 05-02-2007 at 05:14 AM.
ssw9662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 05:06 AM   #11
Ween
Senior Member
 
Ween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,861
Default

Two reasons for not liking UP, neither of which have any real, solid rationality:

1) Because Pat Scott likes them
2) Because they have an apparent* lack of repsect for their heritage

*Apparent when comapred to BNSF, but they have different stories. I like seeing all the variety of paint running BNSF rails, alot of which are hardly altered from the previous owner, but then again, H2 Dash 9s get old. But compared to UP, you're pretty much guaranteed to see the UP Shield on every unit, most of which are Armour Yellow. I'm just not a fan of the way UP patches their units. I'd like to see Rio Grande or SP or C&NW on the nose of those old units, but today there's probably a shield.

But when looking at the two companies, UP is a stand-alone company, one that's been around forever while BNSF is the result of a merger. UP's heritage is loyal to UP's past and they're proud of their own past. And there's nothing worng with that. BNSF has heritage from its predecessors, hence there's no rush to re-paint ATSF or BN paint jobs to Pumpkin Orange.

What's ironic is that I hate the way UP treats it's acquired units, but my favorite railroad, Conrail, pretty much did the same thing to the units they acquired. So, it's basically a stupid hatred, but at least I can use it as a joke with Pat...
__________________
Ween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 03:55 PM   #12
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,910
Default

I don't hate any railroad. But it wasn't always like that. I used to avoid Norfolk Southern because I didn't like the paint scheme. So I never really chased them when I began my railfanning in earnest. So where did that leave me? Well, I missed a lot of B23-7 and B30-7 high hoods, for one. At about the time I began understanding the coolness of a lot of the high hoods on the line, esp. the GEs, the NS got rid of them.


Joe
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 10:19 PM   #13
Burner50
Member
 
Burner50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 88
Send a message via MSN to Burner50
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
compared to UP, you're pretty much guaranteed to see the UP Shield on every unit, most of which are Armour Yellow.


I got to work for a month on a Black SP GP60. It was kinda ugly the way they patched it. Black and red nose with an armor yellow square. Black sides with an armor yellow rectangle with the unit number in red...
Burner50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 11:56 PM   #14
Slopes09
Senior Member
 
Slopes09's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here.
Posts: 837
Send a message via AIM to Slopes09
Default

It could have something to do with UP's apparent abuses of power and attempts to re-write the constitution. Examples include their attempt to ban photography at Metra Platforms (pretty pointless if you ask me), attepts to cover up the reason for a crossing malfunction on the Joliet Sub, or any number of a couple incidents that I can't recall at this time. Meanwhile BNSF enacted their "Citizens for Rail Security" program, officially recognizing railfans as additional eyes and ears on their railroad (the official part is true, regardless of your opinions on the program).

I personally have no problem railfanning the UP, as it provides a nice break from orange Dash-9's, though I'm definatly no fan of UP's management/directors and/or their policies. I've also had no problems with UP employees.

To be honest, I've had the most trouble trying to railfan the CN/IC.

But, if you want to get into the real reason I like BNSF, it actually stems from the fact that I grew up watching them and the Santa Fe.
__________________
-Mike W.
Railroad Civil Engineer

Pretty much the only Pentax Shooter.

Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Slopes09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 02:34 AM   #15
Tåg
Senior Member
 
Tåg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 263
Default

"I'm definatly no fan of UP's management/directors and/or their policies."

HA! Me too! Try getting written up for standing to close to a switch.
__________________
Bob
Tåg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 04:19 AM   #16
Ween
Senior Member
 
Ween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,861
Default

Quote:
Meanwhile BNSF enacted their "Citizens for Rail Security" program, officially recognizing railfans as additional eyes and ears on their railroad (the official part is true, regardless of your opinions on the program).
Good lead-in to a story about how BNSF treats railfans. I recently saw a hitchhiker on a coal train and called it in. Even though my "CRS" membership had expired at the end of 2006, I got a personal phone call from the Division Trainmaster, a letter of appreciation from him, and a $25 gift certificate to a local restaurant just because I "narc'd" on a guy hitching a ride. Pretty neat that a company would do all that for me enjoying my hobby...
__________________
Ween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 04:58 AM   #17
Mike B.
Banned
 
Mike B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,343
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tåg
Why? I hate American Idol, and I can give you 100 reasons why.
I agree with what has already been said, but with their paint scheme being the No.1 reason I don't like the UP. It is just so boring when every unit has the same paint. Gives you nothing to hope for.
Plus, I don't like any of the UP lines in my area with the exception of the Altoona Sub. because it's jointed rail.
I would say I don't like them for taking over the C&NW, but the C&NW is the one I should be upset with. They are the ones who abandoned all of the good lines.

P.S. I hate american idol too.
Mike B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 05:14 PM   #18
J
Senior Member
 
J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 532
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tåg
HA! Me too! Try getting written up for standing to close to a switch.
Things have been pretty dicey since NS/Graniteville or BNSF/Bieber. Looke for a major FRA rulemaking to be coming out before the end of the year.

Good news, it will replace the current Emergency Order 24 so the Switch Position Awareness Form SPAF will no longer be an FRA requirement.

However, look for new federal rules for
- Switches Left Misaligned
- Cars Left in the Foul
- Blind Shoves
- Additional Operations Testing Provisions

What does this mean? Civil penalties if you are involved in such an incident and more pressure on management from the local FRA inspector. Follow the rules and keep your nose clean.

As for liking or hating a corporation - consider that their main purpose is to earn money by providing a service. The fact that a carrier chooses (or declines to spend an extra few thousand dollars per locomotive on a paint job is interesting byt peripheral. Your own perception of their itendities is formed by the railroad you grew up with or your inteaction with a crewmember or company officer.
J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 05:31 PM   #19
Tåg
Senior Member
 
Tåg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 263
Default

You know that after the last patched unit is repainted or purged from the roster everybody is going to pine for them.
__________________
Bob
Tåg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 05:33 PM   #20
Tåg
Senior Member
 
Tåg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J
Things have been pretty dicey since NS/Graniteville or BNSF/Bieber. Looke for a major FRA rulemaking to be coming out before the end of the year.

Good news, it will replace the current Emergency Order 24 so the Switch Position Awareness Form SPAF will no longer be an FRA requirement.

However, look for new federal rules for
- Switches Left Misaligned
- Cars Left in the Foul
- Blind Shoves
- Additional Operations Testing Provisions

What does this mean? Civil penalties if you are involved in such an incident and more pressure on management from the local FRA inspector. Follow the rules and keep your nose clean.

As for liking or hating a corporation - consider that their main purpose is to earn money by providing a service. The fact that a carrier chooses (or declines to spend an extra few thousand dollars per locomotive on a paint job is interesting byt peripheral. Your own perception of their itendities is formed by the railroad you grew up with or your inteaction with a crewmember or company officer.
Have you seen this?

CLEVELAND, May 2 -- Rail Labor is united in support of the Federal Railroad Safety Improvement Act of 2007, a bill that would provide sweeping reforms to railroad safety regulations and vastly improve the quality of life for all railroad workers.

The bill, H.R. 2095, was introduced on May 1 by Rep. James Oberstar (D-Minn.), Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, following lengthy consultation with supportive rail unions.

Among the bill’s many provisions are




A restructuring of the Federal Railroad Administration, placing greater emphasis on its safety role and increasing substantially the number of qualified inspectors.


Elimination of limbo time for operating crews;


Creation of fatigue management programs;


Strengthened whistleblower protections;


Implementation of positive train control;


Vastly improves the safety of operations in dark territory;


Establishment of training standards for all rail workers;


Certification of train conductors;


A study of locomotive cab ergonomics;


A requirement for emergency breathing apparatus in all locomotive cabs; and,


New regulations that would put an end to the harassment and intimidation of rail workers who report personal injuries.


“Jim Oberstar is a friend of Rail Labor who has worked closely with us to formulate this much needed legislation,” said Don Hahs, National President of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen (BLET). “Many of the items contained in this sweeping legislation have been on Rail Labor’s most-wanted list for many years, and all of Rail Labor is united in solidarity to show the carriers that we mean business.”

UTU International President Paul Thompson said, “For years the carriers have made promises to address and solve these issues during national handling, and at each opportunity they reneged on their promises. This legislation loudly tells the carriers that their shell game has come to an end. It is the strongest rail safety legislation introduced in Congress in more than three decades, and rail labor is going to work collectively and constructively to see it is passed into law with a veto-proof majority.”

Rail Labor is united in its support of this measure, including: BLET and the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes Division (BMWED), both members of the Teamsters Rail Conference; United Transportation Union; Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen (BRS); and the American Train Dispatchers Association (ATDA).

“There is strength in numbers,” said Fred Simpson, President of the BMWED. “Not only do we have the strength of Rail Labor solidarity, we have the strength of a pro-labor majority in the House and Senate to support our cause.”

Dan Pickett, President of the BRS said: “The BRS is proud to be a part of this effort. The changes proposed by Chairman Oberstar are long overdue and the BRS with all Rail Labor will work to see the changes become a reality.”

ATDA President Leo McCann said: “One Rail Labor union would not have been able to do this alone. Our solidarity sends the message loud and clear that we are united and we are serious about putting an end to carrier mistreatment of our hard-working union members.”

The bill would redesignate the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) as the Federal Railroad Safety Administration (FRSA), whose goal would be to reduce accidents, injuries and fatalities with safety as its “highest priority.” The FRSA Administrator would be required to have “professional experience in railroad safety, hazardous materials safety, or other transportation safety.” The FRSA would also be required to double the number of safety inspectors from 400 to 800 by Dec. 31, 2011.

Limbo time, the practice of abandoning train crews on locomotives after their on-duty time has expired, would be eliminated under changes to the Hours of Service Act. Under the new law, time spent in deadhead transportation to a duty assignment, time spent waiting for deadhead transportation, and time spent in deadhead transportation from a duty assignment to the place of final release would be considered time on duty, thus eliminating limbo time.

Additional direct relief from fatigue would come in two forms. First, operating and signal employees would be entitled to a minimum of 10 hours undisturbed rest, regardless of the length of the duty tour. Railroads would be prohibited from communicating with their workers during their rest time. Second, they would have to have one period of at least 24 consecutive hours off duty every seven days.

Railroads would also be required to file a fatigue management plan with the Department of Transportation every two years. The bill would require input from Rail Labor into the plans, which would contain educational programs to help rail workers counter fatigue.

The legislation would significantly strengthen existing whistleblower protections to rail workers who report unsafe or hazardous conditions. A worker may refuse to authorize the use of equipment the employee reasonably believes to be unsafe or hazardous to operate or work with, and this bill would protect those who do so.

Class I railroads would have 12 months after enactment of the legislation to submit concrete plans for the implementation of positive train control. The technology would be used to assist train crews with safety, and not as a means to reduce crew size.

The bill would also require railroads to install warning devices in non-signaled territory that would warn train crews of misaligned switches, thereby addressing the greatest risks of dark territory operations.

The Secretary of Transportation would be required to establish minimum training standards for each craft of rail employees under the new law. The bill would require railroads to qualify or otherwise document the proficiency of their employees in each craft regarding their knowledge of, and ability to comply with, Federal railroad safety laws and regulations and railroad carrier rules. Each railroad would also establish its own training and qualification program, which would be submitted to the FRSA for approval.

The Secretary of Transportation would also be required to prescribe regulations and issue orders to establish a program requiring the certification of train conductors. In prescribing such regulations, the Secretary would require that conductors on passenger trains be trained in security, first aid, and emergency preparedness.

The Secretary of Transportation would also establish regulations that require railroads to provide emergency escape breathing apparatus for all crewmembers on freight trains carrying hazardous materials that would pose an inhalation hazard in the event of release; and provide their crewmembers with appropriate training for using the breathing apparatus.

The Secretary of Transportation would also transmit to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate, a report on the effects of the locomotive cab environment on the safety, health, and performance of train crews.

Also under this proposed legislation, railroads would not be allowed to discipline, or threaten discipline to, an employee for requesting medical or first aid treatment, or for following orders or a treatment plan of a treating physician. Discipline means to bring charges against a person in a disciplinary proceeding, suspend, terminate, place on probation, or make note of reprimand on an employee’s record.

A hearing on the bill by the House Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials is scheduled for May 8, at 2 p.m. Eastern Time.

In the meantime, all Rail Labor members are asked to contact their members of Congress to support H.R. 2095, the Federal Railroad Safety Improvement Act of 2007:
__________________
Bob
Tåg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2007, 01:34 AM   #21
tomt
Senior Member
 
tomt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: cali
Posts: 126
Default

the fact they are charging for 'paint schemes' on toys,

is enuf for me to hold the management, in contempt.


290
tomt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2007, 04:00 AM   #22
Studogg120
Senior Member
 
Studogg120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 195
Default

I like UP. I just hear that they treat railfans like....well you know.
Studogg120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2007, 03:48 PM   #23
J
Senior Member
 
J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 532
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tåg
Have you seen this?

CLEVELAND, May 2 -- Rail Labor is united in support of the Federal Railroad Safety Improvement Act of 2007, a bill that would provide sweeping reforms to railroad safety regulations and vastly improve the quality of life for all railroad workers.

The bill, H.R. 2095, was introduced on May 1 by Rep. James Oberstar (D-Minn.), Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, following lengthy consultation with supportive rail unions.

Among the bill’s many provisions are
* * *
Elimination of limbo time for operating crews;
This is an interesting bill that might produce a lot of unintended consequences.

Limbo time (the time after a crew ceases operating after 12 hours on duty but prior to their tie up at their fnal terminal) is a source of continuing frustration. And why not? Who wants to sit waiting for a ride after a long day or night? Carriers don't like it either since it indicates a failure of the network. However, what does it mean if Mr. Oberstar is successful in "eliminating" it? It means a carrier would be subject to a fine if a crew is not tied up prior to being on duty 12 hours. Nevermind things such as unplanned mechanical break downs, crossing incidents, adverse weather, etc.

What is a likely result of this provision? Among other things, a reduction of inter-divisional runs where crews operate over extended distances and often have 24+ hours off at home between trips. What does that do to fatigue? To earnings?

Last edited by J; 05-07-2007 at 03:50 PM.
J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2007, 12:15 AM   #24
MacTown
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Central Kansas
Posts: 84
Default

Tag the question you brought up, I was also wondering myself, Im a UP fan all the way 100%, I havent had any problems with them yet, the crew members i've talked to while shooting have been nice, there is UP mainline running through my town so thats what im use to seeing. I dont get tired of seeing armour yellow and american flags. I want to get some type of management job with UP after I graduate from college, seems like most people have a problem with that area of UP lol. All you UP haters dont stone me for saying that , I swear i'd be nice to u all.

Last edited by MacTown; 05-08-2007 at 12:21 AM.
MacTown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2007, 01:16 AM   #25
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomt
the fact they are charging for 'paint schemes' on toys,

is enuf for me to hold the management, in contempt.


290
They realized their mistake and backed off.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.