Old 11-07-2012, 08:42 PM   #1
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Default The masochist that I am - Unlevel again

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...31&key=7427028

Maybe a quarter of a degree CCW?

And then bend the lightning rod back to vertical and stretch the bottom left corner of the image outward to keep most of the building on the left appearing mostly vertical?

It's OK - I can let the computer render all these adjustments over night if need be. I want to get this right lest I make a fool of myself posting a horrifically lopsided image.

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Old 11-07-2012, 08:45 PM   #2
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Mitch, it does need some CCW rotation, then everything should be evenly flushed with the frame of the photo. Nice photo btw!
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:55 PM   #3
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Mitch,

Looking at the tender and/or the building roofline it appears it does indeed need a slight CCW to make it perfect.

Nice shot, BTW.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:03 PM   #4
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Can you imagine if every photo in the database was screened to within a half a degree vertical? I am having a hard time imagining doing so just with my own images going forward. I think I put a good 10 minutes into each photo analyzing levelnessness. .01, no... .02, no. Wait, maybe. No, -.01? -.03?!!? How about -.025 and warp one corner and stretch the other? Rejected. Repeat ∞.

Personally, I'm thinking of getting rid of my 27" monitor in favor of a 60" - should be easier to see the difference each tenth of a degree makes because I would then be able to measure horizontal lines at a point on each side of the image from the floor with a tape measure.

OK - -0.25 degrees - lets see if that's the difference between a reject and an acceptable image.

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Old 11-07-2012, 09:39 PM   #5
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http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...31&key=7427028

Maybe a quarter of a degree CCW?

And then bend the lightning rod back to vertical and stretch the bottom left corner of the image outward to keep most of the building on the left appearing mostly vertical?

It's OK - I can let the computer render all these adjustments over night if need be. I want to get this right lest I make a fool of myself posting a horrifically lopsided image.
Mitch, everything on the right is level, but the building on the left is unlevel. No need to rotate. Use the distort tool in photoshop and just pull the upper left corner outward until the building's vertical line is level.

Quick and easy fix.

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Personally, I'm thinking of getting rid of my 27" monitor in favor of a 60" - should be easier to see the difference each tenth of a degree makes because I would then be able to measure horizontal lines at a point on each side of the image from the floor with a tape measure.
Well that's just silly talk. I can level just fine on my 15" laptop monitor.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:01 PM   #6
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Ah yes....the only thing that's important in life: a perfectly level image.

The madness never ends here...
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:08 PM   #7
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It's such an easy thing to adjust though Ron. I know back in the day it wasn't a concern because there wasn't really anything you could do about it but that has changed.

I would say it's not because it's so important, but that it's just so easy to fix.

The same would go for noise in digital photos in my eyes.

And yes, I was suckered into debating this once again with you, as we've done countless times previous, even though it will not change either of our stances.

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:30 PM   #8
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Ah yes....the only thing that's important in life: a perfectly level image.

The madness never ends here...
You are correct...it IS madness. Unfortunately I (and I'm sure some others here) have a predisposition to being anal about things in life. It just happens for me that it crosses over into photography, and I can't do anything about it. You'd probably hate watching me work.

I guess it could be worse, I could be just the opposite and one who settles for mediocrity.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:59 PM   #9
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It borders insanity when I, like others, have to spend a good 10 to 15 minutes squinting at the screen using open window boxes as vertical and horizontal guides, in addition to a grid and ruler (one which when lined up covers the verticals in a photos) yet after all that - the image is still rejected - for less then a 1/2 a degree.

When you get an unlevel rejection and do not know if it's CW or CCW, it's time to reevaluate the screening process and how members are treated. For Christ sake, at least alter the rejection to state CW or CCW and maybe go the extra mile and state the reference that is apparently so obvious.

While I appreciate the advice - I really do, it's still all the more frustrating to know that almost any accepted image on RP can be posted on the Forum and there will always be someone who can explain why it was rejected even if it wasn't.

Next logical step: The use of a Pantone color chart to verify the corporate color accuracy of every single engine posted.

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Old 11-07-2012, 11:42 PM   #10
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It's such an easy thing to adjust though Ron. I know back in the day it wasn't a concern because there wasn't really anything you could do about it but that has changed.

I would say it's not because it's so important, but that it's just so easy to fix.

The same would go for noise in digital photos in my eyes.

And yes, I was suckered into debating this once again with you, as we've done countless times previous, even though it will not change either of our stances.

Loyd L.
Those are all excellent points Loyd...but I'm just too darn contrary to ever change. Actually, I try to level up everything I upload---but I go into a hissy fit when it gets gigged for "unlevel"--for some miniscule degree this way or that. On a scale of 1 to 10 of importance, an out-of-level shot that's less than .5 degrees merits a -5---at least that's how I see it.

There are just more important things to consider in accepting or rejecting an image on RP (or anywhere else).

But--we've been over these debating points before, so we'll shake hands and move on. Wanta talk about "composition" instead?
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:45 PM   #11
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You are correct...it IS madness. Unfortunately I (and I'm sure some others here) have a predisposition to being anal about things in life. It just happens for me that it crosses over into photography, and I can't do anything about it. You'd probably hate watching me work.

I guess it could be worse, I could be just the opposite and one who settles for mediocrity.
Jim---in your anal way of dealing with that single factor, you might (I'm just saying...) overlook the more important issues of an image---and end up with a mediocre image anyway. Again, that speaks to my "...can't see the train for the rivets..." phenomenon.

A perfectly level image (as defined by....well, pick a name...) does not necessarily a good image make.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:13 AM   #12
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Jim---in your anal way of dealing with that single factor, you might (I'm just saying...) overlook the more important issues of an image---and end up with a mediocre image anyway. Again, that speaks to my "...can't see the train for the rivets..." phenomenon.
Well, my anal nature for leveling kicks in when I'm processing. I came to the realization (and acceptance) long ago that trying to hold a camera level while pressed to my goofy face is futile. And because of that, I'm able to focus on other, more important things in the composition while shooting.

And as Loyd pointed out, it's such a quick and easy process, there's really no excuse NOT to.

Oh, and just for the record, one of my submissions was dinged for unlevel a couple of weeks ago.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:27 AM   #13
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And as Loyd pointed out, it's such a quick and easy process, there's really no excuse NOT to.
Except that it is NOT always a quick and easy process.

I'll tell you what IS an easy process that occurs on RP all too frequently and that is to overlook facts that can not be dispelled while retorting only those that can. As I said but you overlooked - I find myself sitting in front of my monitor for minutes at a time rotating left and right and back to left only to resort to warp, skew, and distort only to have a screener reject for something as ridiculous as a PERCEIVED few 10th of not even one degree in some direction that a panel is needed to solicit a majority vote.

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:44 AM   #14
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There's my take on it.

Open PSE 10 - rotate CCW 1 degree, - lens distortion correction - vertical +4, remove distortion +3, and save.

I won't say how long it took..

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:59 AM   #15
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Except that it is NOT always a quick and easy process.

I'll tell you what IS an easy process that occurs on RP all too frequently and that is to overlook facts that can not be dispelled while retorting only those that can. As I said but you overlooked - I find myself sitting in front of my monitor for minutes at a time rotating left and right and back to left only to resort to warp, skew, and distort only to have a screener reject for something as ridiculous as a PERCEIVED few 10th of not even one degree in some direction that a panel is needed to solicit a majority vote.
Mitch, it should take 5-10 seconds to level an image with the ruler tool. THAT'S IT. On top of that, fixing some minor wide angle distortion takes less than a minute.

It sounds like you're making it more complicated for yourself than it is. If you're using photoshop and not using the ruler tool to level your photos, well, it's TIME TO START!

There is no need to rotate back and forth. The ruler tool is your friend. Pick a vertical or horizontal to level, draw ONE line over it, go to Image Rotation > Arbitrary > click OK and bam, LEVEL. Honestly, it shouldn't take any more than 20 seconds to do that. Once you get fluid with it, maybe 5-10 seconds max.

Now THAT, my friend, is an "easy process."
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:06 AM   #16
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There's my take on it.

Open PSE 10 - rotate CCW 1 degree, - lens distortion correction - vertical +4, remove distortion +3, and save.

I won't say how long it took..

Loyd L.
Impressive.

However, at first look I thought it had the appearance of leaning left due to the unlevel roofline of the station. My guess is that you didn't simply open PSE and plug in plus 1 CCW lens distortion correction then vertical plus 4 to remove newly created distortion then plus 3. Instead, you likely opened and tried many different numbers and moved the sliders both left and right and back again all to make a correction in a photo that 95% of online viewers would ever notice.

I'll have to take another look at the lens correction filter in PS - in the past I have only used it for intensive corrections. When it came to the trivial minutia of degree 10th, I had often stuck with slight rotation and or a bit of skewing.

Thanks - still, looks good.

I have about a dozen I'd more I'd like to upload - expect it will take about a month or two.

/Mitch
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:42 PM   #17
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Seems to me we empower the screeners to continue these types of rejections by falling all over ourselves to try and make all these minute corrections as though the fate of the universe hangs on getting a particular image on RP.net. If more of you high caliber (leaving myself out here..) photographers would submit a picture you are happy with, then NOT resubmit it if it is dinged for a debatable infraction that you don't see, then I suspect we'd soon see a change in screening policies as the number of high quality pictures entering the data base would substantially drop. Just a thought.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:18 PM   #18
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Seems to me we empower the screeners to continue these types of rejections by falling all over ourselves to try and make all these minute corrections as though the fate of the universe hangs on getting a particular image on RP.net. If more of you high caliber (leaving myself out here..) photographers would submit a picture you are happy with, then NOT resubmit it if it is dinged for a debatable infraction that you don't see, then I suspect we'd soon see a change in screening policies as the number of high quality pictures entering the data base would substantially drop. Just a thought.
I think we are seeing that, in terms of a number of fine photographers that don't post here anymore. And I see lots of mentions in the forums these days of people saying they aren't going to bother to resubmit.

But numbers matter, and I don't see much incentive for RP to change as long as it is doing 100 million views per year.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:36 PM   #19
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Love the crooked Mitch signature.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:39 PM   #20
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Seems to me we empower the screeners to continue these types of rejections by falling all over ourselves to try and make all these minute corrections as though the fate of the universe hangs on getting a particular image on RP.net. If more of you high caliber (leaving myself out here..) photographers would submit a picture you are happy with, then NOT resubmit it if it is dinged for a debatable infraction that you don't see, then I suspect we'd soon see a change in screening policies as the number of high quality pictures entering the data base would substantially drop. Just a thought.
That's like saying, let's all boycott gas stations to force prices down.

It only works if everybody does it, and that's not very likely to happen.

Great idea, though.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:40 PM   #21
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I think we are seeing that, in terms of a number of fine photographers that don't post here anymore.
Those who leave will be replaced by others. At least that seems to be the cycle.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:32 PM   #22
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I think we are seeing that, in terms of a number of fine photographers that don't post here anymore. And I see lots of mentions in the forums these days of people saying they aren't going to bother to resubmit.

But numbers matter, and I don't see much incentive for RP to change as long as it is doing 100 million views per year.
Yep...and yep! It's a cryin' shame, though. Reading through all these suggestions to twist this, pull it up here or there, distort that, rotate this way or that way, use your camera's built-in gyroscope, etc., or pray for divine guidance just speaks to the madness of all this. Mitch's initial shot was just fine----but this has gone on forever in some bizarre mating dance to gain acceptance. I wouldn't do it---and more and more photographers are feeling the same way. I'll do the very basic leveling, of course, but I'm not going through all this. I'd make better use of my time picking lint from my navel (or posting my usual drivel on the forum...).
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:05 AM   #23
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Mitchs' shot is fine. I think it's better level though.

And since I edit every photo in the exact same method; I do not bow down to RP. I just try really hard to make each one right in my eyes.

Is the issue with photographers leaving here because they are tired of dealing with the hoops, or because they refuse to budge on their viewpoints they formed many years ago, and therefore, are not to be questioned?

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:35 AM   #24
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Once upon a time, people thought the horse and buggy were fine.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:27 AM   #25
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Is the issue with photographers leaving here because they are tired of dealing with the hoops, or because they refuse to budge on their viewpoints they formed many years ago, and therefore, are not to be questioned?

Loyd L.
I suspect it's a bit of both. On the latter, I wouldn't call it "viewpoints"---but the long established and respected conventions of photography. "Viewpoints" are a dime a dozen--and everyone has those. "Viewpoints" are like political and religious opinions.

As for the former--that's a personal issue with any single individual. One person may work tirelessly to get shots accepted by the screeners and do whatever it takes to appease them, while the other extreme would be someone who felt insulted after the first rejection, and said "f__k it...I don't have the time or patience to waste on this stuff." And--there are all shades in between.

As for me---I can only draw on my experience as a photographer and long-time student of the railroad industry to guide me. I'm not a trained photographer--just another amateur with a camera hanging around my neck. My opinions are no more important, or less, than anyone else.
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