Old 04-08-2008, 12:59 AM   #1
Ed Mullan
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Default About rejects.


This was rejected because the horizon is unlevel. But is it? Check the signal gantry..it's plum and level, indicating the photo has true horizon. I appealed this shot, stating the info about the gantry..but got no reply. Not being able to move mountains, it has to stay like it is.

Now, if I had gotten an answer from these folks, I would not even be posting this.

What say you all?

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Old 04-08-2008, 01:09 AM   #2
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It's straight when compared to the side of the signal gantry, which tapers towards the top - The entire shot is still sloped to the right. A degree or two counterclockwise would do wonders
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:04 AM   #3
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Looks level to me. The signal gantry looks to be the type with straight verticals, not tapered. I'd appeal, saying that, while the hilltop is sloped a bit, the train and signal is properly vertical.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:09 AM   #4
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I put the photo against a grid and it looks like it would be perfect with a .1 to .2 degree rotation CCW. I don't think that is enough to bother so I would appeal it.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Looks level to me. The signal gantry looks to be the type with straight verticals, not tapered. I'd appeal, saying that, while the hilltop is sloped a bit, the train and signal is properly vertical.
You cannot go by the level on a modern signal bridge. These are often purposely canted away from the tracks, so that whatever sagging occurs during the signal's lifespan, due to heat expansion or stress, is taken into account.

Your best bet is to go by the superliner cars. One would hope that straight track would be level. When I overlay a grid on this image in Photoshop, it leans to the right. Rotate counterclockwise by an amount of your choosing and you will be headed in the correct direction.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ryan
You cannot go by the level on a modern signal bridge. These are often purposely canted away from the tracks, so that whatever sagging occurs during the signal's lifespan, due to heat expansion or stress, is taken into account.
Thanks for that, I didn't know.

Always a good idea to put a grid on a shot - I didn't feel like opening PSE, and this particular browser does not have the zoom that allows me to push a shot over to the edge.
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:12 AM   #7
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As well as I remember the signal gantry looked pretty plumb in realife..I'm gonna put my level in the car, by gosh, and find out just what the real deal is on that rascal. I don't think the truss constructon of that gantry needs any
adjustment for future sagging, looks pretty strong to me.

Ed

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Old 04-08-2008, 03:23 AM   #8
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Out of curiousity, I don't know why, but the blue color on the front of the unit looks too good to be real. Has the color been heavily adjusted here?

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Old 04-08-2008, 03:25 AM   #9
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Great. The staturation police have struck again.




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Old 04-08-2008, 03:49 AM   #10
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This shot looks level to me. I think the general slope of the terrain to the left of the railroad grade.....and to the right of it play tricks with the mind. Looking at the ridge behind the scene, and the afore-mentioned gantry, I'd say she's level.....or at least "close enough for Government work."

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Old 04-08-2008, 04:22 AM   #11
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Default Oh, for Pete's sake!

Folks, aren't we getting rather silly here? Level is the question. Either it is or it isn't. The only way to tell is to put a grid on it. That's exactly what I did, and it was crooked.

Yet, no sooner do I post that the grid says it's unlevel, than someone comes out of the woodwork and pronounces it level. And someone thinks that you can judge level by a distant ridge? I don't think so. Unless you're on a salt flat, nature is about the most unlevel reference of all.

Because some of you refuse to believe that it's level, I will have to post my shot with grid-overlay. Here:



Now, as for the "saturation police," that's another matter. The original photographer neglected to include a color profile with his image. That means there's no control over how those colors will display on most computers. With that in mind, certain computers, especially those of the windows variety, will tend to make colors go all wonky on untagged images. Without a color profile and a calibrated monitor, it's simply impossible to make any legitimate judgement about tone and saturation. For the benefit of the pixel peepers, I have included a swatch of Amtrak Acela Blue. This Pantone color formula came to me by way of Amtrak's marketing people, so I believe it to be legitimate. This is paint-formula-specification color, not sun-faded, dirt-plastered, exposure-varied real color. Your mileage (and monitor) may vary.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:24 AM   #12
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For me, the difference between a good shot, and an unlevel shot is one degree CCW.

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Old 04-08-2008, 04:25 AM   #13
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It's not level. It's close, but not level. Look at the top of the signal bridge. And since the Amtrak is on a tangent track, you can assume it's level. Compare the top of the windshield & the red strip at the bottom of the locomotive to the grid. It's close, but off ever so slightly. .2 to .3 CCW makes it look good.
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Old 04-08-2008, 05:55 AM   #14
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I find it amazing that a photo like this that is unlevel in such a minor way gets hit with unlevel, yet a recent POTW need at LEAST a 6 degree rotation ( ) to make it level, yet it got by the screeners and most everyone who commented on it.

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Old 04-08-2008, 06:12 AM   #15
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My post moved here:

http://forums.railpictures.net/showthread.php?t=7094
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:41 AM   #16
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Two facts. This is a resubmission of a reject in which I had the top of the gantry level.
The blue IS too good to be true..I had been taking some landscape photos the day before, and had the "vivid" cranked up a little in the camera's settings. Plus the photo was made in very bright early morning light.
The monitor is calbrated using photoshop, should be close if your
monitor is adusted. I always downsize using the "for web" in Photoshop, so it's the proper color display for the internet.
I agree one degree helps the photo. It may have made the cut. But two messes it up.
I have no problem with any critque..I love making train photos..and if I can do it better, I will.

Thanks folks..I think I will vist here more often.

PS. I could not remember the profile for internet..it's sRGB that's this image's color profile.

Ed

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Old 04-08-2008, 12:07 PM   #17
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Sheesh! With all of this concern about fractions of degrees, you'd think Cannon and Nikon would be putting precision level indicators on their cameras.

Seriously, one of the Screeners posted on a similar thread a week or two ago and his advice was that if there is no obvious natural horizon reference, you should make the lead locomotive look level. Given that some railway grades are banked slightly, I guess I don't see how that advice can't be extended to a prominent structure that could be expected to be plum/level...such as the gantry. If you use that gantry, even John's grid makes it look pretty darn good.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM
Seriously, one of the Screeners posted on a similar thread a week or two ago and his advice was that if there is no obvious natural horizon reference, you should make the lead locomotive look level.....

If you use that gantry, even John's grid makes it look pretty darn good.
But using the windshields of the lead loco, as the Screeners might suggest, show that the shot is very slightly unlevel.


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Old 04-08-2008, 01:52 PM   #19
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Hi Joe,

What if the RR grade is banked slightly? I think a shot could still be level even though the train looks like it is leaning slightly. I would think that a properly engineered curve for a high-speed train would have some banking so as to create a vertical component of the centrifugal force (down-force)....and also decrease the horizontal component. Hey, it works in NASCAR!

Aw, what do I know? The trains I chase just smoke a lot and seldom go over 20 mph!

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Old 04-08-2008, 02:06 PM   #20
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It is generally quite clear when a curve is super elevated, particuarly on high speed lines.

Obviously, you would not try and make the lead locomotives level.

For example ...

Without electrification
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With electrification (overhead masts are often a great vertical reference - I know this one is level because I have put a level tool on it before taking the photo)
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