Old 12-14-2007, 12:56 PM   #1
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Guys;

I hope you can give me some guidance here. I sent links to two of my shot to the Cayce City Managers office of the aforementioned trestle shots --

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I kow the folks tere from my day job and had mentioned liking trains and the view from the Cayce Riverwalk before, so I knew they'd at least enjoy the shots if nothing else. I got a reply back within ten minutes from the assistant city manager who said the shot was "awesome" and she was really impressed. She asked if she could use them on "the Riverwalk board in our foyer." I wasn't sure what that was. I thought it might be a bullentin board about the riverwalk, etc. and upcoming events. I pictured thumbnails holding fliers up and stuff. It's actually a wall mounted display that is literally the first thing you see when you walk in City Hall. There are presently either ten or twelve 8X10 photos of the Riverwalk. I asked the receptionist who took them and she said she did not know his name, but that he worked (works?) for the city. They might be the ones on their web site here --

Cayce Riverwalk

If not the same ones, then they are similiar in every way. After her first e-mail and before I knew what their wall looked like, I sent a reply thanking her for her compliment and then asking her what she had in mind. I told her the images were taken at high resolution with a digital camera and could be blown up to 24X36.

She replied that she just needed 8X10s and, in fact, has "been able to save these two images under My Pictures and enlarge them to about an 8x10. They’re clear as a bell." She's asking for permission to print them off on photo paper, give me credit and post them on the wall. Now even though she says they're "clear as a bell," I doubt the quality off of RP is what I'd like to have presented to the public. (She says she'd naturally credit me."

This is where I need help. I'm a horrible negotiator. I've lost money before printing pictures off and "selling" them. Sometimes I ned up just giving them away. She has not mentioned a price at all. In fact, she hasn't mentioned buying them and is asking for permission to use them straight off her printer. I'm not sure if she's using a negotiating tactic or not. I doubt they paid anything for the pictures they're using now.

So I'm not sure where to go from here. At the very least, I would prefer to have them prited professionally from the original copies. Any suggestions?


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Old 12-14-2007, 12:58 PM   #2
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Part of me is of a mind to go back and take a lot of shots of the park itself and subtly point out the quality difference in those pictures and what's on their site.


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Old 12-14-2007, 01:18 PM   #3
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$1.



Seriously though, it doesn't sound like she wants to pay, just wants permission. I would at least ask how much she is willing to pay and go from there. The worst thing that could happen is that you don't get some of your own money back.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:19 PM   #4
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Sounds like a gift to me too.

If it were me, I would print them as nicely as I could... it's still a chance to show your work off to others... and there may be a paying customer who is introduced to you that way.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:27 PM   #5
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For something like that I wouldn't be able to charge them for it and feel good about myself.

It sound like a public service type operation, not a company trying to market a product or service, unless that Riverwalk is owned/maintained by a private company, that would be another story?

If I wanted to leave a good impression, I'd have the photos printed out for them professionally, and charge them the cost of shipping, whether it be hand delivered or FEDEX Tube. Emphasize that you would prefer to have them done professionally so it looks good for the display.
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:30 PM   #6
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Yeah, you kind of showed them as a "Hey, check this out" deal, and it would be weird to then ask them for money to display them.

Look at it as good will, and make sure your contact info is there because you never know what doors that may open...
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:25 PM   #7
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I'm not opposed to give them away, but they're not public service. It's an incorporated city selling their riverwalk to potential users.

I'm still chewing on what to do.

By the way, can you guys give me a car? Public service and good will, you know?


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Old 12-14-2007, 04:40 PM   #8
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How about asking them if you can add a small one line advertisment with the photos, something like "Prints Available! Contact: Joe Hinson xxx-xxxx or Joe@jch.com" or something like that?

Then if someone really likes the photo, they can always contact you later for a copy, and you still give a good gesture of charity?

Just another thought.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:46 PM   #9
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I would not allow any of my shots to be used by a for-profit organization or Gov't organization without payment. They probably have more $$$ than me, so they can afford it. I have allowed some of my shots to appear in non-profit SIG magazines/newsletters for no charge.

I was approached a few weeks ago by a for-profit, rail realted firm, asking for permission to use some of my stuff on their website. I asked for payment and have heard nothing about it since. Oh well. I just don't think that for-profit org's should use my work without compensation. Why do it for free?

FWIW, I asked for $75 per shot, based on what I saw at some online stock photo sites. A little too much? Not sure, but again... why do it for free? Nikon sure as heck didn't donate the camera to me
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:03 PM   #10
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Oh well. I just don't think that for-profit org's should use my work without compensation. Why do it for free?
Well, if you're only looking at the money side of it, then it's "free", but there's so much outside of money that could be gained.

The unofficial "historian" in the BNSF yard in town asked to use 8x10s of some of new Swoosh shots to show the current BNSF in action in the area, and those shots would be included in an overall dispaly showing rail operations since they started here in the 1800s. They'd be displayed as you walk through the front door of their Terminal/Office building. Also included (I didn't ask) in the mix was a photo of myself and a bio to be dispalyed next to my photos.

That alone was enough for me to say 'yes' without charging a cent since I'd be part of the BNSF history in The Forks, but the unseen benefits have been worth more to me than $50 per photo or whatever (a tour of the facility, BNSF apparel, cab rides, sim rides, head's up on certain movements, recognition by BNSF hoggers and management, an invitation to be a "V.I.P." at their next Open House, an invite to a catered dinner on a private dining car, etc.) staight up money would have been.

There's more than money. I just wouldn't close any doors over $75...
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:19 PM   #11
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Ween... I would have consented to the use of my shots for free in your example as well. However, I was contacted by a corporate office looking for permission for use on a corporate website. They should pay for that use.

And I was never going to get any cabrides or yard tours out of it since they are not a railroad and about 1700 miles from where I am
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lock4244
Ween... I would have consented to the use of my shots for free in your example as well. However, I was contacted by a corporate office looking for permission for use on a corporate website. They should pay for that use.

And I was never going to get any cabrides or yard tours out of it since they are not a railroad and about 1700 miles from where I am
Okay, I wasn't clear on that as you wrote:
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I would not allow any of my shots to be used by a for-profit organization or Gov't organization without payment.
...and a railroad is in it for profit!
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ween
Look at it as good will, and make sure your contact info is there because you never know what doors that may open...
You gotta start charging at some point. I'm not dying to have my photos displayed somewhere.

I'm with Mike (lock4244) on this one. If the company makes a profit, I want a piece. The only exception is small railroads. Not Class Is because they have deeper pockets than most business's and if they want my photo, they need to pay. It's not going to take food off anyones table so I have no problem demanding monetary compensation.

I have given permission to use my photos to non-profit organizations a number of times. I've asked for payment, never expected more than $100 though, but it's fine if they don't want to pay.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
The unofficial "historian" in the BNSF yard in town asked to use 8x10s of some of new Swoosh shots to show the current BNSF in action in the area, and those shots would be included in an overall dispaly showing rail operations since they started here in the 1800s. They'd be displayed as you walk through the front door of their Terminal/Office building. Also included (I didn't ask) in the mix was a photo of myself and a bio to be dispalyed next to my photos.
Is this display part of BNSF's overall corporate marketing strategy? Seems more like local employee's doing a "proud of our past, looking to the future" kinda thing for their terminal, not the marketing department. Again... not the same as the corporate website. Would you charge BNSF for a shot they wanted to use on bnsf.com? To me, that is the distinction here.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:49 PM   #15
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Lots of good arguements on all different sides here. Someone said that since I provided the link for my shots, then I shouldn't have expected payment. This makes no sense to me. If she had found them on her own and contacted me, is that when I should expect payment?

I'm also not a big believer in the belief that sometimes there's more to money that can be gained. That might not be the best way to say it, but the inference is that if you give someone a free photograph, then they'll do something good for you down the road. Maybe it works for Ween, but I've done this before with railroads, one shortline in particular, and I didn't even get a courtesy call back when I needed informtion during the course of my day job. I ended up doing a thirty minute special on their railroad using an old interview because after repeated phone messages, messages left with receptionists, one stop by the office and a few e-mails, I got the feeling they weren't getting back to me.

Maybe this is her bargaining style. Maybe she's waiting for me to ask a price. Maybe she's just not thinking I'm even thinking about selling.

After eating some chilli, I believe I've decided I will have an 8X10 of the CSX autorack shot printed out which will be given to her, but I just can't give away what is probably the best shot I've ever taken before.


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Old 12-14-2007, 05:52 PM   #16
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Hey, Ween;

Remebering a recent thread on here, be glad BNSF asked.


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Old 12-14-2007, 05:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
After eating some chilli, I believe I've decided I will have an 8X10 of the CSX autorack shot printed out which will be given to her, but I just can't give away what is probably the best shot I've ever taken before.


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Ask for payment, what do you have to lose?
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:33 PM   #18
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You gotta start charging at some point. I'm not dying to have my photos displayed somewhere.

I'm with Mike (lock4244) on this one. If the company makes a profit, I want a piece.
Motivations are different, and money doesn't motivate me in this instance. I think some of you are seeing the money and that's it, even after I listed off examples how how you benefit outside of the cash in your wallet. Since there seems to be some confusion, let me further elaborate on the benefits outside of money:

1) Everything I previously wrote about still applies, mainly opportunities that weren't there before. Doors opened. How else would I ever get invited to be a "V.I.P." on special movement dinner train with food cooked by an elite chef? Certainly that experince would cost more than $100 that selling a photo would bring me.

2) Because of this, I've gained a new friend out of the deal. That's worth more than any money in my wallet. In addition and as an added bonus, this new friend happens to know the chief hiring pilot at Frontier Airlines, which in my line of work (flying airplanes), the more people you know to handle your application (especially the higher up in the food chain they are), the better. Oh, and airline pilots make a lot more per year than selling the random rail photo to interested parties.

3) As for that Open House I talked about, the vision (not mine) was to have a booth set up to sell my book (the book which Mike B previously scoffed at). And again, I didn't get paid to make that book, but here's an opportunity to sell the book to the people who'd be interested...the employees, their families, and anyone who would come to a railroad Open House. "Hey, I was on that train!" or "My kids will love this!"

4) Being a part of a 100+ year history is more important to me than money. Those photos and that display will be there long after I'm gone from Grand Forks. And, yes, the display is a "proud of our past, looking to the future" type thing, but customers and BNSF higher ups from outside of the area see it when they visit, and I've received a lot of feedback because of it.

Those are just a few. Like I said, motivations differ, and what you choose to do with your photos are your business. But telling someone that "you gotta start charging at some point" is naive and short-sighted, especially because you're not seeing the benefites outside of a check with your name on it...
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:34 PM   #19
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Would you charge BNSF for a shot they wanted to use on bnsf.com?
Yes, I would.
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:47 PM   #20
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Motivations are different, and money doesn't motivate me in this instance. I think some of you are seeing the money and that's it, even after I listed off examples how how you benefit outside of the cash in your wallet. Since there seems to be some confusion, let me further elaborate on the benefits outside of money:

1) Everything I previously wrote about still applies, mainly opportunities that weren't there before. Doors opened. How else would I ever get invited to be a "V.I.P." on special movement dinner train with food cooked by an elite chef? Certainly that experince would cost more than $100 that selling a photo would bring me.

2) Because of this, I've gained a new friend out of the deal. That's worth more than any money in my wallet. In addition and as an added bonus, this new friend happens to know the chief hiring pilot at Frontier Airlines, which in my line of work (flying airplanes), the more people you know to handle your application (especially the higher up in the food chain they are), the better. Oh, and airline pilots make a lot more per year than selling the random rail photo to interested parties.

3) As for that Open House I talked about, the vision (not mine) was to have a booth set up to sell my book (the book which Mike B previously scoffed at). And again, I didn't get paid to make that book, but here's an opportunity to sell the book to the people who'd be interested...the employees, their families, and anyone who would come to a railroad Open House. "Hey, I was on that train!" or "My kids will love this!"

4) Being a part of a 100+ year history is more important to me than money. Those photos and that display will be there long after I'm gone from Grand Forks. And, yes, the display is a "proud of our past, looking to the future" type thing, but customers and BNSF higher ups from outside of the area see it when they visit, and I've received a lot of feedback because of it.

Those are just a few. Like I said, motivations differ, and what you choose to do with your photos are your business. But telling someone that "you gotta start charging at some point" is naive and short-sighted, especially because you're not seeing the benefites outside of a check with your name on it...
Oh, and 5) The guy that contacted me and has put this display together is up for a BNSF-wide top award where the winner gets to dine with Matt Rose, the President of BNSF. So, if that display with my photos were a determining factor for whether or not this guy gets the award, then that also makes taking no payment worth it.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ween
Oh, and 5) The guy that contacted me and has put this display together is up for a BNSF-wide top award where the winner gets to dine with Matt Rose, the President of BNSF. So, if that display with my photos were a determining factor for whether or not this guy gets the award, then that also makes taking no payment worth it.
You should really try to stretch this one example out a little further. I think you can get a No. 6 out of it.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:08 PM   #22
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I think I made my point and people can judge for themselves...
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:18 PM   #23
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I think I made my point and people can judge for themselves...
If your point was that you benefited from giving your photos to the BNSF, then yes, you certainly did prove your point.

When you break it down, there isn't much of a difference between getting monetary compensation or being treated in other ways (like you were). Either way you're still getting something for your photos, one just fits nicely in your wallet.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:21 PM   #24
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I'm in the boat that since Joe forwarded the photos on his own accord there was an implied (evidently unintentional) gesture of offering the photos to them for use.

Had she been out looking for photos, found these on her own and the asked for them that shows they place some sort of intrinsic value on using them as part of this display, and MAY be willing to pay for them.

As far as what Joe has to lose? It's more a reputation at this point, she could just as well say "Thanks anyways" and Joe misses out on an opportunity to just put his name out there for others to see.

Sometimes you cannot put a price on exposure to the public, be it negative or positively received.

The payment in this case is just having a little bit of positive exposure for something he ENJOYS doing, not something he worked blood, sweat and tears over. If that's not good enough, then tell them you want to be paid for the photo, but don't be surprised if they tell you to go piss up a rope. (Or words to that effect.)
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
If your point was that you benefited from giving your photos to the BNSF, then yes, you certainly did prove your point.

When you break it down, there isn't much of a difference between getting monetary compensation or being treated in other ways (like you were). Either way you're still getting something for your photos, one just fits nicely in your wallet.
Had I simply asked for money, there was a chance that none of this would have happened...they could have simply gone to the next person, and I would have gotten nothing. You have to weigh the outcome when pondering the situation. In Joe's case, it would come off as greedy, IMO, to ask for money. "Hey, check out my photo! What's that, you like it? Pay me to use it."

Is flat-out asking for money the best course of action? My point is that no, it's not...there are other ways to "profit" from your work...
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