Old 07-17-2008, 08:13 PM   #1
millerm
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I find it rather funny that the screener missed one that I clicked the wrong picture (wrong road, wrong number, wrong description) for all of the info I entered but that's beside the point because the one that I corrected the problem got rejected for the same reason (high sun).



Ok, I get that a couple of these were high-sun (it was) but I didn't think that would be an issue since the sun was behind me such that it illuminated the front and side of the engine. I expected poor composition or something.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=549768&key=0
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=561380499

It's these that I just don't get. The sun was low on the horizon -- about 6PM and it was behind me.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=895251455
As far as I can see it's evenly lit -- there isn't even a shadow under the snowplow...the only shadow is way under the engine near the fuel tank.

I really don't get the JPEG compression one, I don't see where there are any artifacts and quality was set to 8/High in photoshop when I saved it.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=425544008
(I also put the wrong date taken here but that's besides the point)



Any thoughts to fix these? Suggestions? Improovements for next time? Constructive criticism of any type?

EDIT:
A side-note, the first 2 were taken within 20 minutes of each other today.
The last 2 were taken within 20 minutes of each other some time back.

This adds to my confusion why the one is high-sun but the other is only JPEG compression issue?

Last edited by millerm; 07-17-2008 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:23 PM   #2
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Sorry but the image quality of these is nowhere up to RP standards, i would have honestly rejected them all for poor image quality, what kind of camera are you shooting with?
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:26 PM   #3
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Yeah, high sun is the least of your concerns...the image quality is pretty poor across the board and are blurry.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos1
Sorry but the image quality of these is nowhere up to RP standards, i would have honestly rejected them all for poor image quality, what kind of camera are you shooting with?
What does "quality" mean?? That drives me nuts!
It's such a relative term and there are so many different aspects that could have good or bad 'quality'.

Nikon 6 Megapixel D50 with 28:80mm Nikon lens and UV Multicoat filter (well some of those were with a CP filter instead)
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Yeah, high sun is the least of your concerns...the image quality is pretty poor across the board and are blurry.
I've heard some people say it's from motion and others say it's focus/depth of field.

What's blurry and where? What do you believe the cause is?

I've heard some people say use 1/500 - 1/1000 second exposure and higher f/stop. The only trouble is at ISO200 it can't be properly exposed that way.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm
What's blurry and where? What do you believe the cause is?
If you're telling me this isn't blurry...:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=549768&key=0

...I won't be able to help you.

As far as what causes it, not sure, but I know that image doesn't look like what I'd expect to see from a Nikon D50.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:35 PM   #7
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Alot of them the quality is just way off. Blurry, out of focus, poor color depth, almost like a Cell phone. I think there is something seriously wrong with your camera.

Check your settings, make sure your not running in some weird mode something. Take some more test pictures and post them. If it's still bad, you might have a bad camera.

The last picture is ok, not Rpics, but at least it's sharp and looks good.

High Sun is a B**** in the summer because it limits your shooting to mornings and evenings. There's no way around it.

Back lighting can be avoided by having the sun at your back.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm
What does "quality" mean?? That drives me nuts!
It's such a relative term and there are so many different aspects that could
If the image doesn't look as good as what you'd see with your own eyes, then it's poor quality.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg P
Alot of them the quality is just way off. Blurry, out of focus, poor color depth, almost like a Cell phone. I think there is something seriously wrong with your camera.

Check your settings, make sure your not running in some weird mode something. Take some more test pictures and post them. If it's still bad, you might have a bad camera.

The last picture is ok, not Rpics, but at least it's sharp and looks good.

High Sun is a B**** in the summer because it limits your shooting to mornings and evenings. There's no way around it.

Back lighting can be avoided by having the sun at your back.
More [old] pictures:
http://members.cox.net/millermmail_web1/RR
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...c1&id=68139137
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...33&id=68139137
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...e6&id=68139137
These aren't edited (except panoramas) so see what you think. I don't think it's the camera.

I can post the unedited pics that these submissions came from if you want to see them...let me know.

They all look as good on my computer screen as they did in person...
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
If the image doesn't look as good as what you'd see with your own eyes, then it's poor quality.
And if it does?

Not just these alone but I'm thinking about others I'd tried in the past...
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:18 PM   #11
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Yeah do that. We gotta figure out what went wrong.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:19 PM   #12
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I don't know how you don't see it, but the poor image quality is there. Make sure you have your camera set to the highest possible setting, or else you're wasting your money.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm
And if it does?

Not just these alone but I'm thinking about others I'd tried in the past...
Well, none of the images you've posted in this thread fall into that category. As someone else said, "poor image quality" should have been the initial rejection, because if they were high sun, they would have certainly gotten dinged for that.

Have you got one rejected for poor image quality that DID look as good as what your eyes saw?
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
If you're telling me this isn't blurry...:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=549768&key=0

...I won't be able to help you.

As far as what causes it, not sure, but I know that image doesn't look like what I'd expect to see from a Nikon D50.
To me, it looks like the train is properly focused. I'd agree that the trees in the background are blurry but that's certainly not the whole thing.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Well, none of the images you've posted in this thread fall into that category. As someone else said, "poor image quality" should have been the initial rejection, because if they were high sun, they would have certainly gotten dinged for that.

Have you got one rejected for poor image quality that DID look as good as what your eyes saw?
I can't remember which one but I have had them in the past. I've been trying to get something in for almost a year now...that's a lot of pictures that have been rejected over time.

The one that wasn't rejected for quality or light or composition kept getting rejected for "bridge isn't strait" and then "train isn't strait"...they couldn't both be strait at the same time because they were different angles.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm
To me, it looks like the train is properly focused. I'd agree that the trees in the background are blurry but that's certainly not the whole thing.
The nose of the engine is blurry and the whole thing is poor image quality. How do you not see that?

Here, compare this image of the same locomotive. Put your picture in one tab and this one in another and compare:

Image © Ryan Parent
PhotoID: 136598
Photograph © Ryan Parent

Last edited by JimThias; 07-17-2008 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg P
Yeah do that. We gotta figure out what went wrong.
I assume you mean post the unedited images?

Here are the ones that I modified to make the ones I submitted:
http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...p/DSC_8448.JPG
http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...p/DSC_8465.JPG
http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...p/DSC_8283.JPG
http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...p/DSC_8235.JPG

Those are the unedited pictures strait off my memory card. Hope you can suggest where/what I did wrong. I don't think it's over-cropped (pixelated)? The properties should (hopefully) retain the shutter data where I uploaded those.

Last edited by millerm; 07-17-2008 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
The nose of the engine is blurry and the whole thing is poor image quality. How do you not see that?

Here, compare this image of the same locomotive. Put your picture in one tab and this one in another and compare:

Image © Ryan Parent
PhotoID: 136598
Photograph © Ryan Parent
Ok, I'll buy that. I don't see it when mine is "fit to screen" but when I blow them both up I can see a difference.

How's this look for focus? Yours is on the left and one of mine (a few frames away from the one I submitted) is on the right. The color on mine looks different, could that be the high sun or do you think something set wrong? Could it be the CP filter I had on today?

(wow, the attachment worked this time...)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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Old 07-17-2008, 11:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm
How's this look for focus? Yours is on the left and one of mine (a few frames away from the one I submitted) is on the right. The color on mine looks different, could that be the high sun or do you think something set wrong? Could it be the CP filter I had on today?
Yeah, something is definitely odd with the color. The image is slightly better, but still not nearly the quality of the image in the database.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Yeah, something is definitely odd with the color. The image is slightly better, but still not nearly the quality of the image in the database.
Any suggestions?

I think the color could be fixed with a warming filter in Photoshop or color correction tools (I have that mostly in industrial-type florescent lights...and compact-florescents make my white walls turn yellow). Could be if it metered on something other than the train that threw off the white balence.

EDIT:
I'm beginning to hate this manage photos link that doesn't work...I've only been able to attach anything once successfully.

I ran Auto Color Correct, Warming Photo Filter, and Auto Sharpen. Do you think it would be worth submitting?

http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...rrectSharp.jpg

Last edited by millerm; 07-18-2008 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm

I ran Auto Color Correct, Warming Photo Filter, and Auto Sharpen. Do you think it would be worth submitting?

http://members.cox.net/millermmail_w...rrectSharp.jpg
I think I know what you're doing wrong. It appears that you're following the nose of the train when you're shooting, instead of keeping the camera stationary. The nose is somewhat sharp, with detail trailing off as you go down the consist. The stationary objects (brick wall, ballast, sign, etc) are very blurry. Couple that with a somewhat slow shutter speed, and you've got a mess on your hands. I wouldn't attempt to upload the shot, as it's mostly blurry, the color is off, and the lighting is still poor. Sorry.

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Old 07-18-2008, 02:06 AM   #22
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In future when shooting a train in that kind of situation, I'd keep the shutter speed over 1/320 to avoid blurring anything.
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:24 AM   #23
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Alright, I have absolutely no idea what happened here, but I think you may have oversharpened, overcropped and hit the "Save for Web" button in Photoshop, which I have accidentally done before in the past, and the image comes out with the quality similar to the ones you posted here.

It could be a combination of all of the things I mentioned. On top of that, your first two photos are out-of-focus and the sun is high (which is a rejection reason I HATE with all my heart). The third and fourth photos I like, as in, I like the original versions. They actually look pretty good - but please do not do whatever it is that you did to make them look like the rejected versions. They look oversharpened, highly blotchy and overall bad.

Sorry to be blunt or harsh, but take this as constructive criticism. The number on the side of CSX 4795's cab in your rejected photos is barely visible. This is NOT the type of quality that a Nikon D50 camera would take. And judging by your originals, it is something you're are doing during processing. Your camera appears to be just fine.

I'd recommend-
A) Don't sharpen so much
B) Don't crop so much
C) Don't save to web, if that is what you did

Also, if you comply with my recommendations, and manage to salvage the quality, do not crop so tight on the power. In your rejected photos, the locomotives are way, way, way, way too in-your-face. I can barely see any train. Your originals of the Amtrak and second VRE train are excellent. Keep the entire train in the photo. Do NOT crop in on just the locomotives. Maybe a couple degree rotation to the right on those photos would also be required.

In the future, try to wait until the train is further into the frame before snapping the photo. It reduces the amount of cropping you have to do, which is one of the reasons I think your photos lost so much quality. And I'd suggest giving up on the first two photos. Both are out-of-focus, the noses are a bit blurred, and the sun is high. I'm afraid they cannot be salvaged.

Hope I don't sound too blunt.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:51 PM   #24
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So can you you do a reshoot and let us know exactly what you do?

Keep the D50 at f/5.6 and a shutter speed to go along. That should be good for a sunny day. Try taking a few shots without the filter...just to see. When you get home and download the photos, resize one (in photoshop if you have it) and post it on here.

I've seen some pretty amazing work with a D50...no offense but that doesn't look like it. You should be able to have better quality photos.

-Jim
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alstom
Alright, I have absolutely no idea what happened here, but I think you may have oversharpened, overcropped and hit the "Save for Web" button in Photoshop, which I have accidentally done before in the past, and the image comes out with the quality similar to the ones you posted here.

It could be a combination of all of the things I mentioned. On top of that, your first two photos are out-of-focus and the sun is high (which is a rejection reason I HATE with all my heart). The third and fourth photos I like, as in, I like the original versions. They actually look pretty good - but please do not do whatever it is that you did to make them look like the rejected versions. They look oversharpened, highly blotchy and overall bad.

Sorry to be blunt or harsh, but take this as constructive criticism. The number on the side of CSX 4795's cab in your rejected photos is barely visible. This is NOT the type of quality that a Nikon D50 camera would take. And judging by your originals, it is something you're are doing during processing. Your camera appears to be just fine.

I'd recommend-
A) Don't sharpen so much
B) Don't crop so much
C) Don't save to web, if that is what you did

Also, if you comply with my recommendations, and manage to salvage the quality, do not crop so tight on the power. In your rejected photos, the locomotives are way, way, way, way too in-your-face. I can barely see any train. Your originals of the Amtrak and second VRE train are excellent. Keep the entire train in the photo. Do NOT crop in on just the locomotives. Maybe a couple degree rotation to the right on those photos would also be required.

In the future, try to wait until the train is further into the frame before snapping the photo. It reduces the amount of cropping you have to do, which is one of the reasons I think your photos lost so much quality. And I'd suggest giving up on the first two photos. Both are out-of-focus, the noses are a bit blurred, and the sun is high. I'm afraid they cannot be salvaged.

Hope I don't sound too blunt.
Wow, that's a lot to think about...I'd call it to the point, not blunt...

The modified posts (attachments) are full-frame and full-quality. I save all my JPEGs (even if I plan to use it on the web) as High Quality/8 in Photoshop. Just double-checked and it appears to be the resolution/quality it's supposed to be...no idea what could have happened otherwise. I see no point in shooting maximum resolution for here when I just have to resize it down to post and I can get more detail than I can see when I fit the image to my screen. I think I'm set to about 2MP equivelant. One of my links to old pictures on my own site has 3 full-resoltuion (6MP) shots, I don't really see a difference until it's blown way up to read the tiny writing...which wouldn't be possible if it got into the database anyway.

I had tried getting more of just the engine because I've often been rejected for bad cropping when I get it 3-4 cars behind the engine and I got suggestions to have either the whole train or only the engines. Guess it's all what you like. 99.9% of the time the train is too long to get in the frame. The Amtrak is actually cut off, that's the Auto Train and goes around a curve way past where you can see it. I heard him calling on the radio 2 signals up and the end was just approaching me

How can you tell how much sharpening is good? It seems like I always go from 'not enough' to 'too much'. That's partly why I've resorted to auto-sharpen. I don't like how they look sharpened any more than the camera does but that's just me.

One of the reasons I've been trying to get them farther out is it seems like when they get so close everything begins to blur. Maybe if I zoom in farther so it fills the frame better at a farther distance? What do you think?

EDIT: The second 2 I was concerned about empty space around them. So they look farily good without any editing whatsoever? Do you think they could be adjusted to be worth resubmission? How would you suggest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSRC Railfan
So can you you do a reshoot and let us know exactly what you do?

Keep the D50 at f/5.6 and a shutter speed to go along. That should be good for a sunny day. Try taking a few shots without the filter...just to see. When you get home and download the photos, resize one (in photoshop if you have it) and post it on here.

I've seen some pretty amazing work with a D50...no offense but that doesn't look like it. You should be able to have better quality photos.

-Jim
I can but it'll be a week or so and not at as good of a location...the only place we don't get yelled at for loitering is the battlefield (national park) which has a somewhat narrow view from all the trees.

I can only wait around the station when I actually have a train to wait for (picking up or going myself)...then when they tell me to leave I can tell them I'm waiting for train xyz that is supposed to arrive in 20 minutes.

Last edited by millerm; 07-18-2008 at 01:42 PM.
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