Old 08-02-2008, 08:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
No, it is a case of having some knowledge, thus being able to critique, yet not having the skills needed to transfer that knowledge to the craft.
If you really understand it, why wouldn't you be able to transfer what say into what you do? For example, I can tell you when a racing driver makes a mistake, but I cannot tell you exactly how it happened or how he should have fixed it. I can tell you how to ride a bicycle, but if I haven't done it myself, do I really know what I'm talking about? I don't think so.

It just seems to me that if your truly understand what you're talking about as a whole, you should be able to carry over what you say into your own work.
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Old 08-02-2008, 08:57 PM   #102
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For example, I can tell you when a racing driver makes a mistake, but I cannot tell you exactly how it happened or how he should have fixed it.
We're not talking about how Ramos took that picture or what settings he used though. We're talking about whether a triangle of light is really a railroad picture. To further Jim's point, I hated the movie "The Departed" which won an Academy. I thought it was a rotten POS movie, terribly written, acted and directed.

And, yet, I've never written a movie, acted at all or directed anything more than a few airings of my technical college news show in 2002. I guess that means I can't have an opinion or share it about "The Departed," eh?


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Old 08-02-2008, 09:02 PM   #103
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We're not talking about how Ramos took that picture or what settings he used though. We're talking about whether a triangle of light is really a railroad picture. To further Jim's point, I hated the movie "The Departed" which won an Academy. I thought it was a rotten POS movie, terribly written, acted and directed.

And, yet, I've never written a movie, acted at all or directed anything more than a few airings of my technical college news show in 2002. I guess that means I can't have an opinion or share it about "The Departed," eh?


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JRDMC and I were not talking about that shot. He was talking about his skill to critique a shot that somehow is not transferable to his own work.

Just because you have little to no experience with something, doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on it. Everything you experience you form an opinion on, it's just a question of how much is the opinion worth. I don't know where you got that idea from.
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:05 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
JRDMC and I were not talking about that shot. He was talking about his skill to critique a shot that somehow is not transferable to his own work.

Just because you have little to no experience with something, doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on it. Everything you experience you form an opinion on, it's just a question of how much is the opinion worth. I don't know where you got that idea from.
Alright, I was playing catch up with the thread and misread it. Carry on.


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Old 08-02-2008, 09:17 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris crook
Image © John Ryan
PhotoID: 244755
Photograph © John Ryan


This one'll piss you off too, I reckin.
This photo is actually really good. On this photo you could actually see the tracks. You cant really see anything except for those little lights on the one in question

Do not asume that i wont like a photo. This is actually the only one i ever really had a big problem with in the database
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:22 PM   #106
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John's shot is better in my opinion because you can make out more than just lights in both the train and the city. But, holy cow, I had to cover my ears it was so noisy. I'm not hear to bury great photographers like Alex and John, both of whom have clearly forgotten better pictures than I have taken, but, as respectively as I can say this, these two examples make me wonder what kind of drugs the screeners are on.....

and where I can get some.




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Last edited by Joe the Photog; 08-02-2008 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Typing -- not my strong suit!
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:28 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
If you really understand it, why wouldn't you be able to transfer what say into what you do?
Critics who don't create what they comment upon: restaurant critics, movie critics, politics critics, ...

Because great creation is much, much harder than the recognition/description/appreciation of great creation.
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:33 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
Critics who don't create what they comment upon: restaurant critics, movie critics, politics critics, ...

Because great creation is much, much harder than the recognition/description/appreciation of great creation.
Any of the reputable critics for the topics you listed all have a lot of experience in that particular field, but photography is different than those. With photography all you typically need is a capable camera and a thinking mind. Your examples all require people and often times huge amounts of money. Photograpghy is mostly a solo thing, unlike your examples.

Photography is largely being able to see the shot. If you can see the photo and critique it, why can't you see it when you're actually out there shooting? They are very closely related.
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:41 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
River Rails;

I want to know wo is forcing you to take part in this thread that you obviously have so many problems with. If there is someone holding a gun to your head, please type in code so we will know and can send help.




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Old 08-02-2008, 09:49 PM   #110
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Default Ok Ok Ok

OK i am steping in before the screeners lock this for something i was not apart of.

STOP BICKERING! i will turn this TRAIN around if you dont!

Now for the picture

Yes, it is a cool picture. but it is not a cool railpicture. I get what everyone is saying and i thank all of you for your own opinion. I love what is said about not needing to have something to back it up. I admit i am not all that good, but when i saw this it did kind of piss me off that pictures of trains that you could actually see were denied and this one that you need to call in CSI to find, got accepted. You want to see what i have to back it up? follow this link

http://www.freewebs.com/railroadlover/railimages.htm

the first one is not mine, i got permission from someone on this site to put it up because i liked it so much. but the rest are mine. Now like i said i know some of them suck, but they should of made it over the on in question....

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Old 08-02-2008, 09:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Ben Kopicz
OK i am steping in before the screeners lock this for something i was not apart of.

STOP BICKERING! i will turn this car around if you dont!

Now for the picture

Yes, it is a cool picture. but it is not a cool railpicture. I get what everyone is saying and i thank all of you for your own opinion. I love what is said about not needing to have something to back it up. I admit i am not all that good, but when i saw this it did kind of piss me off that pictures of trains that you could actually see were denied and this one that you need to call in CSI to find, got accepted. You want to see what i have to back it up? follow this link

http://www.freewebs.com/railroadlover/railimages.htm

the first one is not mine, i got permission from someone on this site to put it up because i liked it so much. but the rest are mine. Now like i said i know some of them suck, but they should of made it over the on in question....

1.) Given this is a railroad photography forum, wouldn't it be suitable to say you will bad order this car if we don't stop bickering?


2.) I'm glad to see this debate has been peacefully ended.... and best of all, no bans! Kudos!

Plus, it was ended by he who started it! Double kudos!

Last edited by River Rails Photography; 08-02-2008 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by River Rails Photography
1.) Given this is a railroad photography forum, wouldn't it be suitable to say you will bad order this car if we don't stop bickering?


2.) I'm glad to see this debate has been peacefully ended.... and best of all, no bans!
Check it again, I edited it after thinking of something alittle funnier
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:56 PM   #113
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Check it again, I edited it after thinking of something alittle funnier

Thanks,


BUT


We must wait for local to pass through, and possibly a southbound extra!
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:16 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B.
Any of the reputable critics for the topics you listed all have a lot of experience in that particular field, but photography is different than those. With photography all you typically need is a capable camera and a thinking mind. Your examples all require people and often times huge amounts of money. Photograpghy is mostly a solo thing, unlike your examples.

Photography is largely being able to see the shot. If you can see the photo and critique it, why can't you see it when you're actually out there shooting? They are very closely related.
Cooking, in particular coming up with the dishes that the restaurant kitchen staff later prepares every evening, is a solo effort.

The (excellent!) restaurant critic in DC is very familiar with foods, knows how to cook, but does not consider himself at all a creator of recipes/dishes, and any any one time his refrigerator is primarily full of beverages (because he so rarely eats at home!). He does have an excellent sense of taste, and an excellent memory. But he is not a restaurant-grade chef.

Seriously, Mike, you enjoy movies, right? Have you ever tried to create one? Not the multimillion dollar production, but a single-camera video like what a film student would make? No?

Perhaps you think photography is somehow easier. Well, not easy enough in my book. I've stood "next to" AB2 and Mitch Goldman at a photo charter. Our results are not comparable. And yet I am able to write photo criticism that people, including some pretty decent photographers, find interesting to read.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:21 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
Cooking, in particular coming up with the dishes that the restaurant kitchen staff later prepares every evening, is a solo effort.
Not really, you still need a restaurant to cook the meal in. I guess you could just cook it at home, but then it wouldn't work out as a restaurant critic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
The (excellent!) restaurant critic in DC is very familiar with foods, knows how to cook, but does not consider himself at all a creator of recipes/dishes, and any any one time his refrigerator is primarily full of beverages (because he so rarely eats at home!). He does have an excellent sense of taste, and an excellent memory. But he is not a restaurant-grade chef.
Being able to cook food and being able to accurately taste and write how good the food is, are two different things. Taking good photographs and talking about good photographs in detail in my mind are two of the same; can't have on without the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Seriously, Mike, you enjoy movies, right? Have you ever tried to create one? Not the multimillion dollar production, but a single-camera video like what a film student would make? No?
No, I have not ever tried to make a movie. But, I haven't pretended to be a professional movie critic either. I know what movies I like, but I'm not about to announce it to the world why and expect people to listen to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Perhaps you think photography is somehow easier. Well, not easy enough in my book. I've stood "next to" AB2 and Mitch Goldman at a photo charter. Our results are not comparable. And yet I am able to write photo criticism that people, including some pretty decent photographers, find interesting to read.
Unlike a lot of things, I think with photography anyone can become very good at it with enough practice. I don't think it takes much born talent to do. A person just needs training and dedication in order to excel at it.

I'm not trying to say that your blog is worthless, so please don't take it that way. I was responding to something Mr. Thias said, but then you jumped in and took his spot.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Taking good photographs and talking about good photographs in detail in my mind are two of the same; can't have on without the other.
We disagree.

Quote:
No, I have not ever tried to make a movie. But, I haven't pretended to be a professional movie critic either. I know what movies I like, but I'm not about to announce it to the world why and expect people to listen to me.
The real professional movie critics cannot make movies themselves. Yet they are good critics and they "announce" to the world. It's a different set of skills, some of which are related, but a different set.

Quote:
Unlike a lot of things, I think with photography anyone can become very good at it with enough practice. I don't think it takes much born talent to do. A person just needs training and dedication in order to excel at it.
There is a ceiling, for some much higher than others. In any human activity there is a limit to one's excellence, and some people have a higher limit than others. I don't believe that a professional movie critic, given a typical professional lifetime but spent making movies instead of critiquing them, could make a professional movie. Maybe some, but not most.

Quote:
I'm not trying to say that your blog is worthless, so please don't take it that way.
Not at all taken that way.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:58 PM   #117
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We disagree.
You have another supporter, Janusz.

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Old 08-03-2008, 12:08 AM   #118
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For God Sakes! This forum is getting out of hand.
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:35 AM   #119
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I agree with Ben here. I think that this thread has gone too far. It would be in everyone's best interest to move on. These photos have become a controversial matter, and opinions will differ too much to resolve this issue, so I think it would be best to let this thread die out. I even thought it was a bit much with three pages, but now five......Need I say, I think we should move on.....
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:38 AM   #120
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Thanks to those of you who have actually added positive and worthwhile discussion to this thread. Like I said in my earlier post, comments (good and bad) are healthy for the crew as well as our member photographers.

If anyone else has anything worthwhile to add to this conversation please feel free to post. Otherwise please do not waste our viewer's time with useless posts (just to see the number of posts climb?).
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:45 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
We disagree.
Yep. I think photography is rare in that critiquing requires the same skill as taking the shot and you obviously don't. I guess that's the end of it.

Getting back to the original topic here, I'm glad to see the originally discussed photo accepted. It is no where near the type of railroad photography I do, but I enjoyed seeing it. I try to shoot a train in a pleasant or interesting scene, rather than shoot an appealing scene with a train in it. The difference is where the focus of the shot is and I prefer to focus on the train since that's why I'm there in the first place.

Last edited by Mike B.; 08-03-2008 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:24 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by River Rails Photography
Changing this post, to avoid annoying others.
Oh, yeah. That makes it a lot less annoying. I think I speak for all of us when I say that if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion then DO NOT POST! You are not required to comment on every post here in the forums. Please, just be quiet if you aren't going to write about what is being discussed.

Quote:
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OK i am steping in before the screeners lock this for something i was not apart of.

STOP BICKERING! i will turn this TRAIN around if you dont!
Sorry, you created the topic. Once the topic is started you really have no control over where it goes. I think everyone is having a fairly civil discussion on the topic you started. Like I said above to River Rails, if you have nothing further to contribute to the conversation then just stay quiet. The admins have the power to end the topic if they see fit and they obviously do not. Some of you need to show a little more maturity in a forum full of mostly adults.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Yep. I think photography is rare in that critiquing requires the same skill as taking the shot and you obviously don't. I guess that's the end of it.
If only you and Jim could end things in an equally civil manner!
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:10 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Starnes
Thanks to those of you who have actually added positive and worthwhile discussion to this thread. Like I said in my earlier post, comments (good and bad) are healthy for the crew as well as our member photographers.

If anyone else has anything worthwhile to add to this conversation please feel free to post. Otherwise please do not waste our viewer's time with useless posts (just to see the number of posts climb?).

Sorry, I'm guilty here! (although I wasn't trying to see the posts climb).


I will keep !
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:33 AM   #125
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Hell i cant see the train just the lights, but it was well dune. Don't know if i would looked for the shot, as he shot it. I know he would of shot with or with out a train so thats why he was there, think a train showed up ? and had a railfan photo.
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