Old 11-21-2011, 06:31 PM   #26
Missabefan
Senior Member
 
Missabefan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 344
Default

So...What does everyone (especially the night people) think about the second rejection which is my first attempt at a streak shot? Where did I go wrong AND can it be fixed OR is it a lost cause? For future reference I'm curious.

The first reject I'll figure something out I guess by cropping of some top, bottom, and right sides. Was going for a scene type thing and made mention of the origin of the train etc. but that didn't fly so I'll chop it down to train only and try again.

Thanks

Todd M.
Missabefan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 07:11 PM   #27
CSX1702
Senior Member
 
CSX1702's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...0&key=61759215

I thought this shot was so cool, I downloaded it as my screen display. Thanks!
Ditto! It shows up very well on my screen.
__________________
Derek

Flickr

Out Of Place Album
CSX1702 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 08:11 PM   #28
Hatchetman
Part-Time Railfan
 
Hatchetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,381
Default

The streak shot looks OK. I would say a little underexposed and needs CW rotation.

They nailed it for PEQ which is like a nail in the coffin though. They have cut way back on the number of streak shots accepted in my opinion. I have no evidence for that though.

Streak shots are not all that interesting IMO. Unless you have a great surrounding scene or some other interesting aspect.
Hatchetman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 09:08 PM   #29
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
For sure, the total, absolute crap should be stopped at the door. But, if it's reasonably competent photography---let all of us see it, and we'll judge. A group of adults should be able to recognize good photography when they see it.
Principle vs practice/applcation:

One important dimension of ths issue, perhaps overlooked or assumed away, is what happens to the mix of shots on RP - does it get better or worse (however defined)? I can see the magnitude of what, for lack of a better term or even a more accurate term, I will call "competent swill" increase, and more desirable shots being even less likely to be seen.

Or, to put it in entirely different terms, although shifting the point, oh well. I go back to something you have said or implied more than once, Ron. I have less confidence than you do in the photographer having made a thoughtful choice that goes against screener practice, as I think it more likely than you do that a photographer is sloppier or less precise or less principled and thus generates an image that really can and should be done better.

It's a baby/bathwater thing, I guess.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots

Last edited by JRMDC; 11-21-2011 at 09:19 PM.
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 01:26 AM   #30
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
...
Or, to put it in entirely different terms, although shifting the point, oh well. I go back to something you have said or implied more than once, Ron. I have less confidence than you do in the photographer having made a thoughtful choice that goes against screener practice, as I think it more likely than you do that a photographer is sloppier or less precise or less principled and thus generates an image that really can and should be done better.

It's a baby/bathwater thing, I guess.
As someone wrote not long ago, the stream of image uploads to RP might (for simplicity sake) be divided into three groups:

Those shots that are obviously bad from a technical standpoint;
Those shots that are obviously good, very good, or outstanding, and;
The rest of the shots (the middle)

I think RP's screeners are sufficiently competent to reject the lowest group of shots. However, they end up in a quagmire with the top two groups. They're rejecting some good, very good, and even outstanding shots (...and this is not about anything I've submitted....since 90 percent or more of my very mediocre photography is accepted here...), and then accepting some in the middle group that could easily fall into the lower category.

Frankly, I've lost confidence in the RP screening process. From the time I've been following some rejections (of other shots, not mine) on this forum lately, I'm just aghast at how consistently "wrong" they are. Again---I would tend to be far more inclusive, rather than exclusive if I were a screener. This is all about more....not less.

I know quite a few outstanding photographers who have no interest whatsoever in participating in RP. They find it "amusing." Also, many outstanding photographers have no intentions of having their images plastered around the internet (even though a low resolution JPEG in the public domain can't be abused all that much; the "copyright" tag offers as much protection as a leaky condom at a college orgy).

I do support RP....and have since the beginning (remember, I have image number 6 in the data base, so I've been around for a long time here). That said----I do think it's time for a "make over."

Frankly, I don't want Chris, Chris, Chase, Erik or Dave telling me (or you) what we "shouldn't" see. I would rather be the judge----basically, because many of us know as much, or more, about "good photography" as any of them. If they would just weed out that first group I mentioned, let us----those who pull up RP every day on our computers to see "what's new"---decide ourselves. Anyone who purports to understand "Poor Esthetic Quality" is either a liar or a fool.

This site should never be about anyone groveling around at the feet of RP's screeners for some degree of respect and recognition. They should merely weed out the obviously poor quality images---and that's it.

If the alternative thought is that RP should somehow be seen as the "best" train photos, hands down----the image base will never make a compelling case for anything like that. If that were the goal----replace all the current screeners with a jury of acknowledged "experts" and ramp the rejection rate up to about 95 percent. I'm sure the submissions would be heavy....maybe two or three a day at most.
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 01:54 AM   #31
Mr. Pick
Senior Member
 
Mr. Pick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missabefan View Post
So...What does everyone (especially the night people) think about the second rejection which is my first attempt at a streak shot? Where did I go wrong AND can it be fixed OR is it a lost cause? For future reference I'm curious.

Thanks

Todd M.
Todd, for what it's worth, what I notice when I look at the nighttime "streak" shot is the crossing guard arm which is much brighter than anything else in the scene. I would select just the arm and then tone it down a good bit. I think it distracts from the important part of the image.
Mr. Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 02:06 PM   #32
WMHeilman
Senior Member
 
WMHeilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Napoleon, OH
Posts: 486
Default

The night shot of the IC SD70 is KILLER! Just brighten it a bit, and level it better (it's leaning right) and you'll have a winner in my books. If RP doesn't like it, screw 'em! Put it on Flickr!

(RP is not the end-all, be-all. We all know that.)
WMHeilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 02:59 PM   #33
Mr. Pick
Senior Member
 
Mr. Pick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WMHeilman View Post
The night shot of the IC SD70 is KILLER! Just brighten it a bit, and level it better (it's leaning right) and you'll have a winner in my books. If RP doesn't like it, screw 'em! Put it on Flickr!

(RP is not the end-all, be-all. We all know that.)
That one's already made it on.
Mr. Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 03:46 PM   #34
WMHeilman
Senior Member
 
WMHeilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Napoleon, OH
Posts: 486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pick View Post
That one's already made it on.
In that case, congrats!
WMHeilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 03:47 PM   #35
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pick View Post
That one's already made it on.
Wonderful. I guess there is a God....
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 12:07 AM   #36
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
Frankly, I don't want Chris, Chris, Chase, Erik or Dave telling me (or you) what we "shouldn't" see.
Why shouldn't Chris and Chris tell us what we shouldn't see on THEIR site?
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 12:14 AM   #37
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias View Post
Why shouldn't Chris and Chris tell us what we shouldn't see on THEIR site?
A predictable point----except a lack of democratic fairness would doom RP. It exists entirely because of the contributing photographers. And without those photographers, it's an empty vessel. And without the participation of good photographers, it may be a vessel that won't float indefinitely. The goal is to make this better.

No reason to be confused; this is not a one-sided deal---it has to be a symbiotic relationship to work.
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 12:30 AM   #38
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,796
Default

If Chris and Chris want to drive this site into the ground due to strict screening, that's their prerogative.

I post for fun...I guess I just don't take this site as seriously as others.

By the way, what's up with the obviously unlevel shot on the front page? Those grain silos are going to tip over.
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias

Last edited by JimThias; 11-23-2011 at 12:33 AM.
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 12:39 AM   #39
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,493
Default

Somebody has to make a determination about good enough / not good enough. How do we address having a quality control that's acceptable, and still keep em rolling in? I do not feel a democracy setting is the total answer either. I mean democracy made a joke and voted in a paper in the window shot as a PCA for crying out loud..

So I guess the only option that would be perfect for everyone would be no screening, no judgements, no good ol boys network (as it's been suggested many times). All photos come forth and be known..



Oh wait. http://rrpicturearchives.net

Which by the way, rrpic archives has 8 times more photos, yet only one-half the traffic as RP. Why is that?

Here's my grand plan:







I have none..

Loyd L.
__________________
You can tell from my upload pattern just how bad I want to be a well known railroad photographer...

American Rails dot com - A fantastic website with tons of information and photographs related to American railroads and locomotives.

Last edited by bigbassloyd; 11-23-2011 at 12:41 AM.
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 12:44 AM   #40
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
I do not feel a democracy setting is the total answer either. I mean democracy made a joke and voted in a paper in the window shot as a PCA for crying out loud..
What I find funny is that they allowed it to be a PCA when it was obvious that the fix was in. Seems like they would have just passed on it and taken the next shot with the most votes.
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 01:04 AM   #41
troy12n
Senior Member
 
troy12n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
Which by the way, rrpic archives has 8 times more photos, yet only one-half the traffic as RP. Why is that?
Well, for one thing, they dont have the servers or bandwidth to handle it. I cant tell you how many times I have been there and the damn thing just crawls to a halt.

I know your saying quality, and you are most certainly right, i'm just saying there is another reason besides quality. It's easy to get frustrated.
__________________
My RP.net photos
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 01:54 AM   #42
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
So I guess the only option that would be perfect for everyone would be no screening, no judgements, no good ol boys network (as it's been suggested many times). All photos come forth and be known..
Of course not! That's not the "only option." A much better option is to lighten up on the rejections for less than objective reasons. That's not very hard to achieve; it's called using some common sense, and to respect the differing perspectives of contributing photographers.

What would you guys do....make it MORE restrictive? I'm not sure the business model for that would work very well, but that's not a concern of mine, since I obviously don't own the site or have a financial stake in its success.

Sure---I could avoid all this static and just stop posting my precious photos to RP. No one would notice, and no one would care. However---if this same pattern of slow withdrawal persists, the site will eventually decline into a hopeless morass of sameness. It would be like me being a screener and rejecting anything that wasn't lettered "Louisville & Nashville." That's an example of a bias, by the way.

Photography should be a celebration of diversity---but RP is unwittingly applying the same metrics to everyone (not technical issues, but instead issues of artistic interpretation and style).

You guys are still sounding like a herd of lemmings....
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 02:11 AM   #43
Mr. Pick
Senior Member
 
Mr. Pick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 662
Default

Well, you can't say they're not open minded:

Image © Bryant Kaden
PhotoID: 381846
Photograph © Bryant Kaden

Last edited by Mr. Pick; 11-23-2011 at 02:13 AM.
Mr. Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 02:29 AM   #44
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
Photography should be a celebration of diversity---but RP is unwittingly applying the same metrics to everyone (not technical issues, but instead issues of artistic interpretation and style).
How do you suggest they go about altering the metrics to "lighten up" on interpretation when the vast majority of rejected photos are a standard typically composed photo? Where exactly do they draw the line between "fix the damn contrast and color" and "oh I left it dull because that's my style" ?

I honestly feel like there is no way to make it work for everyone. As long as there is any screening process applied, there will be sore egos, upset customers, and voices for revolt.

If the screeners aren't qualified to judge photos as they see fit, are they qualified to determine how far un-level something has to be to go from objective to artistic?

Quote:
You guys are still sounding like a herd of lemmings....
You're just mad we aren't following you off the cliff..

Loyd L.
__________________
You can tell from my upload pattern just how bad I want to be a well known railroad photographer...

American Rails dot com - A fantastic website with tons of information and photographs related to American railroads and locomotives.
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 02:33 AM   #45
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
Of course not! That's not the "only option." A much better option is to lighten up on the rejections for less than objective reasons. That's not very hard to achieve; it's called using some common sense, and to respect the differing perspectives of contributing photographers.
Ron, at least try to recognize that in many cases, there is no "differing perspective", just lack of quality control on the part of the photographer. There may be no right answer, and the balancing problem may not be correctly, optimally, or preferably solved by RP, but let's at least recognize that there is a balance, and for every "differing perspective" thoughtful photographer there is a "didn't notice the unlevel because I'm not attentive" photographer or a "unlevel is no big deal to me because I have been looking at unlevel slide shows for 50 years" photographer. How to draw the line?

Seriously, coming back to unlevel solely because it is a pet peeve of yours, no one chooses to be 1 degree or 1/2 degree off, that isn't an artistic or creative choice. If you want the standard to loosen, that is fine, just don't couch it in some sort of false moral "respect the photographer" dimension. One only need to consider respecting the photographer when the photographer is making a conscious choice. There may be a reason to loosen the standard, to be sure, but that isn't it.

Composition/balance, same thing. I have seen lots of "improved" shots pass through here. Baby/bathwater. No obvious right choice.

Nose light, hey, I agree with you. But I'm not peeved at RP about it, though that is more a function of my personality than some principled decision not to let it bother me.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 03:00 AM   #46
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Guys...guys....

I will concede the "level" issue (although I still think many of you obsess over a fraction of a degree far too much)....and I could even buy some composition argument every now and then. But---the screeners invariably apply their own biases to shot selection. Yes, yes....I know...it's "their" site; I surely get that point. I also get that if I don't like how they do things, that essentially is tough cookies. But here's the point, guys: they don't know any more about good photography than I do...or any of you. What is this---the blind leading the blind? I don't need an RP screener to tell me one of my shots has "poor esthetic qualities." Hell fire.....THEY'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE THAT JUDGMENT!!! A photo is a unique expressive statement of the photographer, and if it otherwise passes technical merit, it should be accepted and posted for others to see. If it only gets ten screen views---then so be it. Let the people decide if it has "esthetic qualities."

I can recall when photos that included human beings were not accepted on RP. They had some concerns about liability----which might have been valid. I told them they were missing some of the most important photographic opportunities of all---the human interest shot. As you can see, that changed---and the site is richer for having done that. It's called "growth," and that's what we're discussing here.

I have offered what I sincerely think are some constructive ideas to improve RP. I can certainly understand if many of you have the "if ain't broke, don't fix it attitude," but I honestly believe the screening process is screaming for refinement. You surely don't think I'm alone in that belief, do you? I just happen to be the loud mouth who has the chutzpah to talk about it (well....type about it) on this forum. I hear from many people off list who say, "....you're absolutely right, Ron....hang in there!"

I'm not the lemming in the group. You guys are solid practitioners of the first rule of most organizations: "Nothing new or different should ever be tried for the first time."

I'm done for now, since my wife is having surgery early tomorrow morning. I'll be doing more important things than writing my opinions on the RP forum for a few days.
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 03:03 AM   #47
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Nose light, hey, I agree with you. But I'm not peeved at RP about it, though that is more a function of my personality than some principled decision not to let it bother me.
I really need to have some "principled" restraint on some of these issues. As I always say....it's only a hobby, so it's not like any of this is really important in life....'cause it ain't!

Thanks for giving me a needed reality check....
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 03:04 AM   #48
Mr. Pick
Senior Member
 
Mr. Pick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 662
Default

Ron, sure hope all goes well with your wife tomorrow. We'll keep ya'll in our thoughts and prayers.
Mr. Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 03:26 AM   #49
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post

I have offered what I sincerely think are some constructive ideas to improve RP. I can certainly understand if many of you have the "if ain't broke, don't fix it attitude," but I honestly believe the screening process is screaming for refinement. You surely don't think I'm alone in that belief, do you? I just happen to be the loud mouth who has the chutzpah to talk about it (well....type about it) on this forum. I hear from many people off list who say, "....you're absolutely right, Ron....hang in there!"
My point is that it's broken, and it will always be broken. There is no way to make it right for everyone. Improvement is great, but not the answer that people are seeking.

Best of luck with your wife and her medical needs. I'll say a little prayer for you two.

Loyd L.
__________________
You can tell from my upload pattern just how bad I want to be a well known railroad photographer...

American Rails dot com - A fantastic website with tons of information and photographs related to American railroads and locomotives.
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 03:28 AM   #50
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,493
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
I really need to have some "principled" restraint on some of these issues. As I always say....it's only a hobby, so it's not like any of this is really important in life....'cause it ain't!

Thanks for giving me a needed reality check....
None of this means a damn thing.. Right on!

It's fun to debate, argue, act like it matters at times though..

The bottom line is that this whole place could burn to the ground and take every photo with it, and I wouldn't miss a beat in life.

Loyd L.
__________________
You can tell from my upload pattern just how bad I want to be a well known railroad photographer...

American Rails dot com - A fantastic website with tons of information and photographs related to American railroads and locomotives.
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.