Old 06-02-2009, 05:21 PM   #1
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,900
Default A Warning About Shooting RAW

Quote:
If you're shooting action, raw doesn't work. You'll fill an 8 gig card faster than you can imagine.

I never shoot raw. Why would I? Raw is a waste of time and space, and doesn't look any better than JPG even when you can open the files.
This is a quote from Ken Rockwell. It can be found on an enlightening piece about RAW at http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm where he also states

Quote:
-- If you just bought a new camera, you won't be able to open the files until you update your computer's software.

-- That means you may not be able to open your files today with your new camera if you didn't shoot JPG!

-- If you use Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw, you just might have to buy the newest version of Photoshop, since Adobe doesn't update older versions to read the files from new cameras.
And that's just in the first five paragraphs. Any thouhts?
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 05:30 PM   #2
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Well, we have done the raw/jpg debate here several times, so I will ignore that.

Regarding the new camera issue, he is correct. If I were to, for example, upgrade my 20D to a 40D or 50D I would not be able to process raw files, as PSE3 cannot be updated to support those cameras. The latest ACR updates do not work with older PS/PSE versions. I would have to get new software, upgrade to PSE7, whatever, or install the Canon DPP software (so yes I could nonetheless access my new raw files "today" but just not with my current software).
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 05:34 PM   #3
Wizzo
Senior Member
 
Wizzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 545
Default

The comments on updating Photoshop or Elements are valid if you have the latest model camera and an old version of the software, but you can still use Canon's DPP to convert the RAW files to TIFF (without loss) or JPG and open them in Photoshop afterwards.

The bit about filling up memory cards is irrelevent - cards are cheap. I just bought a new 4Gb CF (Sandisk Ultra III) for less than £20. With a Canon 40D shooting RAW I can still fit around 300 RAW files on one 4Gb card - whats the problem ?

Is RAW better than JPG ? Its subjective and many people still shoot good JPG's, but I think so. There is WAY more detail hiding in the shadows and highlights of a RAW file than the JPG equivalent which can be revealed with careful post processing work.
__________________
STEVE

Press here to see my pics on railpictures.net

More pics here D1059 on Flickr
Wizzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 05:54 PM   #4
John Craft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 238
Default

Ken Rockwell is very opinionated, his web site is very useful (especially to getting acquainted to the digital world), and he's even right every once in a while, too.

Quote:
If you're shooting action, raw doesn't work. You'll fill an 8 gig card faster than you can imagine.
Ken is correct: everyone, everywhere, shoots at exactly the same rate, only has one 8GB memory card, and has no way to download those images to storage.

Oh, wait: that I have never ever filled up a 4GB card shooting RAW + JPEG, much less an 8GB card, in a single day. Let me revise:

This is patently, transparently ridiculous.



Quote:
I never shoot raw. Why would I? Raw is a waste of time and space, and doesn't look any better than JPG even when you can open the files.
o⋅pin⋅ion /əˈpɪnyən/ –noun

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Or, as a friend likes to say, "I may not always be right, but I'm always CERTAIN."

If you're a deadline photographer, or you think you have mastered in-camera settings, JPEG might be preferable. For the type of photography I do, having the luxury of doing the RAW-to-JPEG conversion on a monitor, and perhaps several times, is far preferable to me.


Quote:
Quote:
If you just bought a new camera, you won't be able to open the files until you update your computer's software.
-- That means you may not be able to open your files today with your new camera if you didn't shoot JPG!

-- If you use Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw, you just might have to buy the newest version of Photoshop, since Adobe doesn't update older versions to read the files from new cameras.
The comment is confusing. Adobe Camera Raw is updated regularly to incorporate new camera RAW formats, but it is available as a free download.

It is true that, when a new version of PSE comes out, Adobe stops updating camera raw for the previous version. But an upgrade to PSE 7 is about $75, which can be factored into the cost of the new camera.[/quote]

Ken has learned what a lot of talk radio and cable news "personalities" know: being an opinionated @$$#0!e drives ratings (page views). Keep this in mind when reading his site.
John Craft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 05:58 PM   #5
lock4244
Senior Member
 
lock4244's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The City Below Vaughan
Posts: 1,048
Default

I shoot RAW/JPEG simultaneously, always have. Raw for the "lurking details" that might matter someday, Jpeg for viewing on my PC and, yes, a majority of my RP shots are edited from the Jpeg. I suppose the idea behind shooting Raw is the same as having a working smoke alarm and a fire extinguisher at my home... I don't plan of having a fire, but it's nice to know they're there and working. I don't necessarily need the detail of Raw files right now, but I very well may someday. Storage (CF, HD, and DVD-R) is cheap.
__________________
Mike Lockwood

Insert witty comment here

Hot girl on girl action here!

More Pics Here
lock4244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 06:02 PM   #6
John Ryan
Senior Member
 
John Ryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 497
Send a message via AIM to John Ryan
Default

Ken Rockwell is, for the most part, a total idiot who will say anything reactionary just to drive traffic to his website. Are any serious photographers going to stop shooting RAW just because this clown is running his mouth about it? I don't think so.
John Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 06:08 PM   #7
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,773
Default

Great! I take the time to learn RAW editing, and just as I begin to shoot only RAW, I find out the end is near...

Loyd L.
__________________
What used to be is no more

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 07:55 PM   #8
odie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 11
Default

Why anyone would NOT shoot RAW if available is beyond me. Even if you don't need to have that kind of control over your photos all the time, its pretty darn nice when you do have to use it. I guess if you were the worlds greatest photographer, and were able to shoot a perfect picture right out of the camera, then awesome...don't use RAW. I, for one, am nowhere near perfect and will continue to exploit all the tools that are available to me.
odie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 08:10 PM   #9
Ween
Senior Member
 
Ween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,861
Default

Rockwell does say this:

Quote:
If you love to tweak your images one-by one and shoot less than about a hundred shots at a time than raw could be for you. In fact, if you prefer the look you can get from raw (it may be different from JPG in some cases depending on software) you can let your computer batch process images and save the results as JPGs, too. I almost never shoot anything in raw, and when I do I never see any difference for all the effort I wasted anyway.
If I'm shooting alot of stuff that I don't care about ever processing (like documentary shots of my personal belongings to put in the safety deposit box or vacation shots), I shoot JPG. Otherwise, for trains, it's RAW. For one, I never take that many shots. For another, I enjoy post-processing and having absolute control...
__________________
Ween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 08:47 PM   #10
travsirocz
Senior Member
 
travsirocz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eau Claire, WI
Posts: 2,459
Send a message via AIM to travsirocz
Default

I started shooting just jpg and then started shooting raw. I really hate going back to process any of my just jpg stuff. I enjoy the camera raw interface for making my intial adjustments along with highlight and shadow recover if needed. As Ween said, random shots of unimportant things is shot in jpg only most times. One day shooting only jpeg is going to catch up to you. Like when an UFO or Bigfoot comes into your view and jpeg just didn't capture enough to prove what you saw or even a day fishing with some of you when you get that big one on camera with blown out highlights.
travsirocz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 09:15 PM   #11
NYSubway18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 106
Default

Afraid I have to completely disagree with Ken. Why anyone would shoot anything but RAW if you have the ability to do so is beyond me. The power I now have with my RAW images coupled with the processing ability of Aperture I just can't imagine ever going back. I find it so disappointing and downright frustrating to go back and edit anything I shot prior to getting my Canon 40D which was the last time I shot anything but RAW. There are many more reasons, but just the ability to pull back blown out highlights and bring detail out in shadows are more than enough for me.
NYSubway18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 09:38 PM   #12
TheRoadForeman
Banned
 
TheRoadForeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 640
Default

How long have I been telling some of you guys that he is a loon.......? A long time!
TheRoadForeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 09:43 PM   #13
WKUrailfan
Senior Member
 
WKUrailfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 230
Default

Rockwell is a Joke.
WKUrailfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 10:13 PM   #14
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

I keep my camera set to shoot both. That way the shots that just need a touch of sharpening and a drop more contrast, I work from the JPEG. The shots that I need to really play with getting the colors right or finding details in blown out areas, I work with the RAW file.

I then store both on my drives so that if I ever have a need to go back, I have them there.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 11:05 PM   #15
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,811
Default

Quote:
Raw is a waste of time and space, and doesn't look any better than JPG even when you can open the files.
This sentence is a bit confusing to me. What does the bold part mean and what does it have to do with the first part of the sentence (before the "even")?

So, what about when you can't open the files? Does RAW look better then and is not a waste of time and space?
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 11:22 PM   #16
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias View Post
This sentence is a bit confusing to me. What does the bold part mean and what does it have to do with the first part of the sentence (before the "even")?

So, what about when you can't open the files? Does RAW look better then and is not a waste of time and space?
That's correct.

Also, Katy Perry MP3s are better when you can't play them.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 11:44 PM   #17
KevinM
Senior Member
 
KevinM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,030
Default

I've been a JPEG shooter for years and recently started shooting RAW+JPEG basic. While I would not say that I'm overwhelmed by the advantages, I do notice some. The shadow detail has been mentioned. The ability to make bigger adjustments to exposure than were ever possible and the some ability to recover blown highlights are also a plus. I also think I have a more cropping latitude while still retaining good image quality.

With regard to format compatibility, I have PSE 6, which didn't speak D90. Fortunately, that version of PSE is new enough that it is compatible with the latest ACR download....so I did that, and PSE is working fine for me.

On the downside, it is true that the supply of memory cards that I thought was more than adequate for even the longest trips no longer is. I'm more conservative about using my camera's burst mode. Those 10-12 MB NEF files also eat up hard drive and back-up drive space a lot faster. And the TIFFs....28 flipping MB per file! Yikes!

I think on balance, the safety net you get with RAW is probably the deciding factor.
__________________
/Kevin

My RP stuff is here.

Link to my Flickr Albums. Lots of Steam Railroad stuff there from all over the US.

Last edited by KevinM; 06-02-2009 at 11:47 PM.
KevinM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 12:23 AM   #18
BarrySr
Senior Member
 
BarrySr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Arlington, Tx.; home of the Texas Chokers
Posts: 225
Send a message via Yahoo to BarrySr
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ryan View Post
Ken Rockwell is, for the most part, a total idiot who will say anything reactionary just to drive traffic to his website. Are any serious photographers going to stop shooting RAW just because this clown is running his mouth about it? I don't think so.
I'm certainly the hell not. Shoot RAW only, convert to TIFF, etc., etc. Have PSE7 with no issues, love DPP, etc.

No problems here, either in the field or off, period.
__________________
BarrySr
KE5YYR


"I dug 'dem boats when diggin' em wasn't cool"


"Why are the crazy people so enamorate of all things EMD?" [Holloran Grade]

____________________

View My Photos on Railpictures.net
BarrySr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 12:27 AM   #19
BarrySr
Senior Member
 
BarrySr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Arlington, Tx.; home of the Texas Chokers
Posts: 225
Send a message via Yahoo to BarrySr
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias View Post
This sentence is a bit confusing to me. What does the bold part mean and what does it have to do with the first part of the sentence (before the "even")?

So, what about when you can't open the files? Does RAW look better then and is not a waste of time and space?
[laughing at KW]

Another great catch, JT.

"Words mean things." So true, so true.
__________________
BarrySr
KE5YYR


"I dug 'dem boats when diggin' em wasn't cool"


"Why are the crazy people so enamorate of all things EMD?" [Holloran Grade]

____________________

View My Photos on Railpictures.net
BarrySr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 01:59 AM   #20
jnohallman
Senior Member
 
jnohallman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,527
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
Also, Katy Perry MP3s are better when you can't play them.


That's epic!

Jon
__________________
"Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." - Mark Twain

Click here to see my photos on RP.net!

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, click here. Don't even think about it. I'm warning you!
jnohallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 11:59 AM   #21
John Craft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
Katy Perry MP3s are better when you can't play them.
Have you heard her latest? "I shot in RAW and I liked it?"





Edited to add: oh, my, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imgQf0evv10

Katy Perry: "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Jill. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master."

Obi-Jill: "Only a master of evil, Darth Katy."

Last edited by John Craft; 06-03-2009 at 12:35 PM.
John Craft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #22
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Craft View Post
Have you heard her latest? "I shot in RAW and I liked it?"

__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 02:07 PM   #23
ssw9662
Senior Member
 
ssw9662's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 839
Default

I just shoot RAW+JPEG and store the RAW files on my external hard drive after I finish processing them. That way it saves space and I still have the RAW files around if I need them. The only somewhat valid argument Rockwell has here is the amount of space RAW takes up on a camera's memory card, but even that shouldn't be a concern unless you're out on a multi day trip.
__________________
Austin
Canon EOS 7D
Canon 70-200mm f/4 L
Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Canon 50mm f/1.8
My Railpictures.net Photos
flickr
ssw9662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 02:20 PM   #24
Wizzo
Senior Member
 
Wizzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 545
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssw9662 View Post
I just shoot RAW+JPEG and store the RAW files on my external hard drive after I finish processing them. That way it saves space and I still have the RAW files around if I need them.
Until your external hard drive fails and it will - given enough time

Always store your vital data on at least 2 devices. They will let you down eventually, but you would have to be really unlucky to have both fail at the same time.
__________________
STEVE

Press here to see my pics on railpictures.net

More pics here D1059 on Flickr
Wizzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 02:39 PM   #25
ssw9662
Senior Member
 
ssw9662's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzo View Post
Until your external hard drive fails and it will - given enough time

Always store your vital data on at least 2 devices. They will let you down eventually, but you would have to be really unlucky to have both fail at the same time.
You're right about that--in fact a second backup XHD is high up on the things I need to invest in soon (and a third may be a possibility sometime down the line). I'm placing my bets on not having them all fail at once, which hopefully wouldn't happen.
__________________
Austin
Canon EOS 7D
Canon 70-200mm f/4 L
Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Canon 50mm f/1.8
My Railpictures.net Photos
flickr
ssw9662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ken rockwell, raw

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.