Old 07-08-2010, 03:11 PM   #76
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Whenever I cast a PC vote, it's for a shot I feel is aesthetically outstanding, with tasteful processing. Judging from the results, there are a significant number of voters who have entirely different reasons for casting a PC vote, which is why you have so many gimmick shots, grossly processed HDR shots, and even wrecks getting PCAs. Some of the choices in the past have simply left me questioning the sanity of the average RP viewer!
Could not agree more. And I do think CBlaz has a point about name recognition. Proof? Jesse Ventura. Ah-nuld. Why is it so hard to think it wouldn't happen with voting here?
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:17 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Mitch, thanks to your recent additions, you have only helped prove my point that the voting process of PCAs in flawed. After our discussion on zoom pans, you added one of yours from the charter so now we can go to the tale of the tape and examine the numbers. The shots in question:

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 329556
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 330687
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Your shot has the totally green hillside as a backdrop and the train is on a bridge, while mine has a little piece of sky and the parallel road as the only major differences.

I added my zoom pan on Sunday, June 27 while you added yours over a week later on July 6. As of 1:30am on July 8, my shot has 715 views, 28 favorites and 4 comments in the week and a half it's been on. In comparison, your zoom pan has received 585 views, 30 favorites and 4 comments in just over a day, well on its way it seems to a PCA.

If your shot does eventually win a PCA, how do you explain that? Is there that big a difference between the two shots? Is there something in yours that's missing in mine? Does the difference between a 1/10th exposure and 1/5th exposure matter that much?

Another interesting thing to note is the views you accumulated by posting the shot to other forums. Over 180 views have come from links posted on two other forums. Those links draw eyeballs directly to your shot without going through the RP photostream, while a well-done foreign shot (cough David Benn's South African steam on a bridge silhouette cough) that isn't linked anywhere else might not get the attention it deserves. Doesn't view whoring like that make the PCAs an unfair fight?

- Chris
One explanation - Mitch comments on a lot of others photos, so many may comment back because of that. I'm not sure how many comments you write Chris?
Maybe Mitch and Chris can fill us in on how many comments and favorites they have dished out last month?

Side note - both shots above are completely different from each other in every aspect besides the panning and locomotive.

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Old 07-08-2010, 05:26 PM   #78
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Chase and I were foaming in the gorge last night, and we both captured a shot of a similar scene. His was photographed at 947 pm, and mine at 1113 pm. How long should I wait until I give mine a go in the queue?

Chase's shot:
Image © Chase Gunnoe
PhotoID: 329447
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Back to Loyd's question.... I'd say let this thread drop back to at least Page 3..... which might be a while now.....

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Old 07-08-2010, 05:32 PM   #79
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I second the motion for a member imposed lock of this thread. However, I think the questions brought up in this thread (individual v. collective portfolio) (PC voting philosophy) need to be discussed (elsewhere).
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:44 PM   #80
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Mitch, thanks to your recent additions, you have only helped prove my point that the voting process of PCAs in flawed. After our discussion on zoom pans, you added one of yours from the charter so now we can go to the tale of the tape and examine the numbers. The shots in question:

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 329556
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 330687
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Your shot has the totally green hillside as a backdrop and the train is on a bridge, while mine has a little piece of sky and the parallel road as the only major differences.

I added my zoom pan on Sunday, June 27 while you added yours over a week later on July 6. As of 1:30am on July 8, my shot has 715 views, 28 favorites and 4 comments in the week and a half it's been on. In comparison, your zoom pan has received 585 views, 30 favorites and 4 comments in just over a day, well on its way it seems to a PCA.

If your shot does eventually win a PCA, how do you explain that? Is there that big a difference between the two shots? Is there something in yours that's missing in mine? Does the difference between a 1/10th exposure and 1/5th exposure matter that much?

Another interesting thing to note is the views you accumulated by posting the shot to other forums. Over 180 views have come from links posted on two other forums. Those links draw eyeballs directly to your shot without going through the RP photostream, while a well-done foreign shot (cough David Benn's South African steam on a bridge silhouette cough) that isn't linked anywhere else might not get the attention it deserves. Doesn't view whoring like that make the PCAs an unfair fight?

- Chris
Chris,

You mentioned with only a handful of exceptions (and those exceptions being the back drop of the composition), that both you and Mitch have a relitavely similar angle. Your arguement is that Mitch is getting more views, favorites, etc. because of his "name" and so called "position" on RP, correct?

That said, perhaps you should consider that Mitch has the better zoom pan? In your previous quote (that I quoted) you failed to acknowledge the fact that Mitchs' pan is far more sharp, while yours lacks sharpness and is mostly blurred on the nose. Mitchs' is crisp as can be on the nose with the background blurred correctly.

Also, as Travis pointed out, perhaps if you were a bit more kind to other contributors and didn't call them out for ridiculous and comical reasons, perhaps people would appreciate your work more.

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I second the motion for a member imposed lock of this thread. However, I think the questions brought up in this thread (individual v. collective portfolio) (PC voting philosophy) need to be discussed (elsewhere).
No need to close this thread. It's stayed reasonably civilized these past four pages.

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Old 07-08-2010, 06:07 PM   #81
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Also, as Travis pointed out, perhaps if you were a bit more kind to other contributors and didn't call them out for ridiculous and comical reasons, perhaps people would appreciate your work more.
Where did Travis mention that I wasn't kind to other contributors? All he mentioned was that my lacking of commenting may hurt me, which may be a valid point.

Your argument, however, fits right into my point. What you're saying is that people vote on PCAs by who the photographer is and whether they're friendly and nice instead of the artistic merits of each shot. If that's the way people vote, then the PCAs are a joke.

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Old 07-08-2010, 06:17 PM   #82
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Where did Travis mention that I wasn't kind to other contributors? All he mentioned was that my lacking of commenting may hurt me, which may be a valid point.



- Chris
I actual just mentioned that I know Mitch comments a lot since I see them on photos I am looking at. I don't know if Chris comments a lot after I look at a photo or on different photos then I look at but I think he answered the question either way.

I myself only vote PCA based on it being the best photo according to my tastes. It is never based on who it is. The best photo to me may be the worst photo ever to someone else. Some PCA winners that may be called gimmicky could also be called groundbreaking or unique.

I favorite far fewer then I comment on. Even though most of my comments are short I think it is still a more personal way to acknowledge a well done photo. Every photo I favorite will always also get a comment. I use the comment system to show the photog positive feedback and the favorite system for my own personal tracking.

Aren't all voted things biased? I mean really... who voted for Obama? lmao j/k
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:17 PM   #83
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What you're saying is that people vote on PCAs by who the photographer is and whether they're friendly and nice instead of the artistic merits of each shot. If that's the way people vote, then the PCAs are a joke.
There is a difference between a voting system being subject to some bias or not being ideal and saying it is a joke. Is democracy as practiced in the USA a joke? (I would say there are flaws, but lets not get into politics ... )

I surmise, without proof, that while photographer reputation is an important factor in a person deciding whether to click on a thumbnail, it is of minor or no importance in determining whether a person makes a PCA vote. I'll make an exception for personal buddies; perhaps some people are more inclined to give PCA votes for their friends - but that is different from reputation.
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:28 PM   #84
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Where did Travis mention that I wasn't kind to other contributors? All he mentioned was that my lacking of commenting may hurt me, which may be a valid point.
Travis had an opinon similar to mine, but I worded it in my perspective.

Quote:
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Your argument, however, fits right into my point. What you're saying is that people vote on PCAs by who the photographer is and whether they're friendly and nice instead of the artistic merits of each shot. If that's the way people vote, then the PCAs are a joke.

- Chris
Not necessarily. I may be less likely to vote on an image if the contributor is a total and complete ass. Sort of like a confident photographer. If the particular photographer already he knows he is good, then his work is not near as much appreciated because of his/her arrogance and confidence geared towards their photography.

And I'm not saying that's how everyone looks at it.

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Old 07-08-2010, 07:15 PM   #85
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If I like the picture, I'll comment on it. If the picture blows me away, I'll PCA it. Some weeks I don't PCA a shot. Most weeks I only PCA one. Has nothing to do with the photog.
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:45 PM   #86
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I'm a slightly biased voter. I will not vote for any photographer who's previously been busted for submitting fake photos.

And I see no reason to shut the thread down. It's informative, and has been civil thus far. I'll never be able to submit the bridge shot now, but I'll survive..

Carry on Gentlemen!

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Old 07-08-2010, 08:44 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Mitch, thanks to your recent additions, you have only helped prove my point that the voting process of PCAs in flawed. After our discussion on zoom pans, you added one of yours from the charter so now we can go to the tale of the tape and examine the numbers. The shots in question:

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 329556
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 330687
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Your shot has the totally green hillside as a backdrop and the train is on a bridge, while mine has a little piece of sky and the parallel road as the only major differences.

I added my zoom pan on Sunday, June 27 while you added yours over a week later on July 6. As of 1:30am on July 8, my shot has 715 views, 28 favorites and 4 comments in the week and a half it's been on. In comparison, your zoom pan has received 585 views, 30 favorites and 4 comments in just over a day, well on its way it seems to a PCA.

If your shot does eventually win a PCA, how do you explain that? Is there that big a difference between the two shots? Is there something in yours that's missing in mine? Does the difference between a 1/10th exposure and 1/5th exposure matter that much?

Another interesting thing to note is the views you accumulated by posting the shot to other forums. Over 180 views have come from links posted on two other forums. Those links draw eyeballs directly to your shot without going through the RP photostream, while a well-done foreign shot (cough David Benn's South African steam on a bridge silhouette cough) that isn't linked anywhere else might not get the attention it deserves. Doesn't view whoring like that make the PCAs an unfair fight?

- Chris
I will argue that the two pictures have a lot more distinguishing them on top of what you said. Most importantly, the light. Your shot, Chris, has cloudy lighting, while Mitch has a very well-lit pan. As such, the colors in the MG shot are better, IMHO. I also think that the sky in the CB shot detracts. Additionally, I find the closeness to the viewer in the CB shot distasteful, while the size in the MG shot much better. I also find the glare associated with the headlight and the left number board distracting on the CB shot. Meanwhile, the CB shot does have the view of the train going for it. Over all, I like the Mitch Goldman pan much better. This, however, is just my opinion and may not be shared by any others.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:26 PM   #88
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Shortly after my first picture was accepted on this site I heard about the supposed connection between hits in the first 24/48 hours, comment count, and subsequent PCA placement. I was told that this was one of the reasons some people would post links to their specific picture on other sites.
Being a statistician by trade I went ahead and kept a count for about 6 months. I was unable to find any strong correlation between PCA placement and comment number/top in 24-48 hour category.

When you think about it the lack of correlation between these events isn't unexpected. In order to vote you need to be a registered member of the site and you have to sign in before the PCA nomination hyper-link activates but you don't have to do any of this to view a picture or post a comment.

As for voting bias - you bet - after all, the votes don't come from some random slection of the interent population - they come from self selected individuals who have taken the time to become registered memebers and who also take the time to log in and vote. Should this be an issue of concern? Personally, I don't think so.

My view on issues of counts, PCA votes, etc. is they are all fine. In my case, anytime I get a hit count in excess of 3 I consider the picture a success and the fact that several of my pictures have hit counts over a thousand never ceases to amaze me. (The reason 3 is the break even point is because, before this site, 3 was the maximum number of people I could reasonably expect to even look at one of my pictures - me, my wife, and possibly my one friend who also happens to be interested in rail photography).

I agree with the observation concerning comments. Each one is very much appreciated and I not only try to post comments about others work I will also drop them a line using the contact-the-photographer link. If I've put in a PCA vote for their picture I will be sure to tell them that. Even if their picture doesn't make it into the top 4 PCA spots for the week I like them to know that, as far as I was concerned, they were in the running for a PCA nomination.
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Mitch, thanks to your recent additions, you have only helped prove my point that the voting process of PCAs in flawed.

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 329556
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 330687
Photograph © Mitch Goldman


- Chris
Sometimes it's more then F8 and be(ing) there.... sometimes it's all about the timing.

Where was my automatic PC for one of my best?
Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 327312
Photograph © Mitch Goldman


Where was my automatic PC for my "gimmick"?
Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 325530
Photograph © Mitch Goldman


Where was my automatic PC for "my name"?
Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 326579
Photograph © Mitch Goldman


The above examples disproves your point.

I'm with Ken here - a PC is a reflection of the voting audience.

What is missing is just how many votes it takes to get a PC, a secret
that can not be divulged for obvious reasons. Your shot had PC potential.
It has a great sense of speed. I think you simply posted among images that
fared better with the voting audience at the end of that particular week.
We've all been there before.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Another interesting thing to note is the views you accumulated by posting the shot to other forums. Over 180 views have come from links posted on two other forums. Those links draw eyeballs directly to your shot without going through the RP photostream... Doesn't...that make the PCAs an unfair fight?
- Chris
I doubt any linked views yielded a vote - all votes are from site members and in case you forgot, non-site members can not vote. BTW - you were among the many that endorsed linking while I attempted to persuade admin to disqualify externally linked views. Why now the sudden change of heart?

/Mitch

PS: Loyd - I'd now give it a few days longer to post your photo. LOL.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:58 AM   #90
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To all concerned:
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:52 AM   #91
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I'll never be able to submit the bridge shot now, but I'll survive..

Carry on Gentlemen!

Loyd L.
I still think that if your shot was darker it would get in.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:26 PM   #92
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I still think that if your shot was darker it would get in.
I wont be submitting the shot I attached on post one.

I have a different version ready to go, when it's time to go.

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Old 07-09-2010, 04:55 PM   #93
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I wont be submitting the shot I attached on post one.

I have a different version ready to go, when it's time to go.
That's too bad. This whole discussion wouldn't have been moot, since the quality of your shot in post one is so much better than the one that was accepted and won a PCA.

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Old 07-10-2010, 01:56 AM   #94
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The feedback Ive received via here, and through other channels makes me believe the different version I'll upload will be a better choice. Still a good technical quality shot I think.

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Old 07-10-2010, 06:20 PM   #95
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I myself only vote PCA based on it being the best photo according to my tastes. It is never based on who it is.
Thanks to Chris, I gave a PCA vote to someone (David Benn) I'd never heard of before. His photo is stunning to me and the name attached to it has zero relevance to me giving it a vote (obviously, since I'd never heard of him before).
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Old 07-11-2010, 02:46 AM   #96
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Mitch, we're making the same point. People see the name Chase (or AB2 or Nick McLean or Craig Williams or Mitch Goldman or Jean-Marc) attached to the shot, and based on his body of work, give him a PCA without judging the photo itself. Meanwhile, a better photo from an unfamiliar name (or a European shot) may get passed over. That's why I'm arguing the PCA voting process is a flawed system.

- Chris
Thanks, but I guess you'll have to leave me off the "well-known" list, Chris, ...4+ years of posting and not a PCA yet.

...but hey, I think I had an SC a couple years back...
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:40 AM   #97
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Thanks, but I guess you'll have to leave me off the "well-known" list, Chris, ...4+ years of posting and not a PCA yet.

...but hey, I think I had an SC a couple years back...
Wow - even with all those "gimicky" shots:

Image © Nick McLean
PhotoID: 236295
Photograph © Nick McLean


Image © Nick McLean
PhotoID: 235753
Photograph © Nick McLean


Image © Nick McLean
PhotoID: 329492
Photograph © Nick McLean


Hey Nick - I'd include you in the list of people with a body of work that would lead many to click on thumbs. Keep 'em coming!

/Mitch
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:41 AM   #98
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You all are like a bunch of gossiping women about this
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:32 PM   #99
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In case anyone missed it:

Image © Loyd Lowry
PhotoID: 331664
Photograph © Loyd Lowry


Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread, and gave their opinions / advice. I think the version I uploaded is different enough from Chase's, and it made it on.

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Old 07-19-2010, 05:13 PM   #100
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If I like the picture, I'll comment on it. If the picture blows me away, I'll PCA it. Some weeks I don't PCA a shot. Most weeks I only PCA one. Has nothing to do with the photog.
Exactly my approach as well.

mersenne6, great post, welcome to the forums.


I have actually found myself thinking recently that the PCAs have done a great job in digging up photos that I missed in the stream but are worthy of recognition. As far as disagreeing with "awarded" shots, I am usually scratching my head far more often at some of the shots that get Screener's Choice or Photo of the Week relative to what gets a PCA.
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