Old 11-05-2012, 05:30 AM   #1
Mgoldman
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Default Unlevel - (warning, secure all loose items on desk)

I have sent the following image to the US Bureau of Standards for analysis as I do not have access to the proper caliber of equipment to make such infinitesimal measurements at my disposal, in the mean time -

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...27&key=4950295

How many hundredths of a degree would best work and would that be CW or CCW or perhaps both?

Also - is there a way to batch correct my entire collection as I fear they may all be equally out of whack.

/Mitch
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:51 AM   #2
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At a glance, it looks level. Screeners tend to look off buildings or power poles for levelness (if that's a word). The building seems to be ever so slightly leaning to the right. But that's me. Also, is this curve super elevated?
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:53 AM   #3
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I have to say this is a bit of an odd one. If you slap a grid on it, the right hand side of the building aligns perfectly, but the glass section in the center and the left end are off a little. If you give it 0.3 degrees of CCW rotation, the glass section and the left end are vertical, and since they're closer to the center of the photo, I guess that's what they're looking at. Pretty nitpicky, if you ask me.

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:12 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by wheelnrail View Post
...it looks level. ...The building seems to be ever so slightly leaning to the right.
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If you slap a grid on it, the right hand side of the building aligns perfectly... give it 0.3 degrees of CCW rotation...
OK, pretty much what I was thinking... it looks level but I should rotate it less then even a half a degree to meet with the standards set by admin as evidence in all images accepted prior to this one.

In all seriousness - thanks guys, I appreciate your insight. I suppose I can go into Photoshop and use the warp feature - I must be the lazy one of the bunch of us...

/Mitch

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #5
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I was going to reinforce Mitch's last comment with my own observation, but then I recalled something a wise man said early this morning: "Leave me alone, I know what to do." So Mitch, go forth like Kimi Raikkonen and accomplish great things.

(Though you might want to photoshop a deere into the scene -- it's not a dog, so that'd be cool with the screeners, right? -- to give some indication that this is actually a John Deere facility and not some random office building complex that could be anywhere. Here, I have some photos you can sample from.)
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:59 PM   #6
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How many hundredths of a degree would best work and would that be CW or CCW or perhaps both?
Upon first glance, the building appears to be leaning to the right. When leveling in photoshop, approximately .5 CCW seems to be the solution. Then, to correct for wide angle distortion, use the Distort option under Transform to pull the upper corner outward slightly to level the right vertical of the building.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:00 PM   #7
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"Leave me alone, I know what to do." So Mitch, go forth like Kimi Raikkonen and accomplish great things.
I thought I was the only F1 fan on this forum! I laughed at that comment when I heard it as well. Kimi deserved to win that race.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #8
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I thought I was the only F1 fan on this forum! I laughed at that comment when I heard it as well. Kimi deserved to win that race.
I'll second that
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:28 PM   #9
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You know me guys: I call "BULLSHIT!" on anything less than a 1 degree "error." Either a photo looks good...or not. It's insulting to photographers to have screeners go all anal on such a minor matter and slap an electronic grid over an image and then reject it for being off the width of a gnat's pecker (in an unaroused state). Real photographers don't use such gimmicks. It cheapens the whole process.

I find myself checking for level for no logical reason before I upload an image...and then get all mad at myself: "WHY am I doing this???"

I feel dirty just talking about it. I should be a person of stronger principles and convictions, and not cave in to the long, draining and depressing decline into digital conformity and sameness. For God sakes....someone may think I'm a "conservative." After that, there's nothing left to live for. At that point, every creative instinct within me will have died.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:54 PM   #10
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I find myself checking for level for no logical reason before I upload an image...and then get all mad at myself: "WHY am I doing this???"
Because you'll make people like me happy by not having to look at an unlevel photograph?

By the way, whenever I see an unlevel picture hanging on a wall, I level it.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:02 AM   #11
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Because you'll make people like me happy by not having to look at an unlevel photograph?
My preference would be to torment guys like you by forcing you to look at an endless stream of images alternately .5 degrees "off" in one direction or the other.

I still think RP's esteemed screening corps () goes to excess to find innocuous "flaws" in otherwise good photography. Stated differently, they often can't see the train because they're looking at the rivets. And---ultimately only RP itself is harmed, since many fine photographers turn away from the site out of disgust---thus denying the site, and all its viewers the privilege of viewing more expressive train imagery. The site's financial success depends on "unique views," so fewer good shots, and more bla-bla-bla-bla sunny day wedge choo-choo pictures translates into lower income from its advertisers. Of course that's of no concern to me, as I'm not one of the owners.

Fussing over "wiener" issues like miniscule level interpretations, composition, and particularly the most subjective aspects of photography only harms everyone---contributors, viewers, and the owners of the site. It's a zero sum game, if not an outright loser.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:40 AM   #12
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Thanks guys - it's in!

I'm so embarrassed I didn't catch it originally.

I've contacted the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) based in Gaithersburg, MD and ordered a fresh copy of "Handbook 44" which is published annually and provides the specifications, tolerances, and other technical requirements for weighing and measuring devices. I met Dr Patrick D Gallagher (Under Secretary of Commerce for Standards and technology) and we discussed my image in great detail with 2,900 scientists, engineers, technicians and administrative personnel and we've concluded the image is in fact leaning slightly to the right, though not by .4 or even .3 degrees, but only 0.2 degrees.

-0.2 degrees - the difference between a rejection and acceptance...

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Old 11-06-2012, 02:06 AM   #13
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I still think RP's esteemed screening corps () goes to excess to find innocuous "flaws" in otherwise good photography.
Actually Ron, I don't think it's the whole corps. Let's leave it at that.

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Fussing over "wiener" issues like miniscule level interpretations, composition, and particularly the most subjective aspects of photography only harms everyone---contributors, viewers, and the owners of the site. It's a zero sum game, if not an outright loser.
Can I hear an "Amen" from the congregation?
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:44 AM   #14
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The site's financial success depends on "unique views," so fewer good shots, and more bla-bla-bla-bla sunny day wedge choo-choo pictures translates into lower income from its advertisers. Of course that's of no concern to me, as I'm not one of the owners.

Fussing over "wiener" issues like miniscule level interpretations, composition, and particularly the most subjective aspects of photography only harms everyone---contributors, viewers, and the owners of the site. It's a zero sum game, if not an outright loser.
Ron, I hear you, but as long as the site is doing 100 million + views a year, I think mgmt will not be very receptive to arguments about financial setback.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:01 AM   #15
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Thanks guys - it's in!

I'm so embarrassed I didn't catch it originally.

I've contacted the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) based in Gaithersburg, MD and ordered a fresh copy of "Handbook 44" which is published annually and provides the specifications, tolerances, and other technical requirements for weighing and measuring devices. I met Dr Patrick D Gallagher (Under Secretary of Commerce for Standards and technology) and we discussed my image in great detail with 2,900 scientists, engineers, technicians and administrative personnel and we've concluded the image is in fact leaning slightly to the right, though not by .4 or even .3 degrees, but only 0.2 degrees.

-0.2 degrees - the difference between a rejection and acceptance...
Sounds like I need a job there so I can set that Dr. Gallagher straight. It appears his leveling equipment needs some calibration.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:19 AM   #16
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Sounds like I need a job there so I can set that Dr. Gallagher straight. It appears his leveling equipment needs some calibration.
Jim, switch out that huge "L" lens and lamp shade for a 50 mm lens and I'm sure your world will level out

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Old 11-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #17
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Ron, I hear you, but as long as the site is doing 100 million + views a year, I think mgmt will not be very receptive to arguments about financial setback.
It's not financial set-back---but lost opportunity to be even better. I would think more money would be sufficient incentive. I certainly wouldn't continue any argument with someone who wasn't interested in my ideas for their enrichment. But any good business model respects and listens to its clientele, and this is first and foremost a business. I don't get the same impression from RP. These are good guys, but they tend to be a little tone deaf at times. Surely they're not so self-absorbed with their own level of photographic skills that they're above listening to us mere members of the proletariat.

I do appreciate the off-forum exchanges I've had with Chris (Starnes), and I know he thoughtfully considers my points (and tolerates the heavy--and stale--breath of my complaints at times). He also knows I only want the very best for RP.

But---I'm still scanning old slides every now and then. And, once in a blue moon, I actually take a NEW digital image and upload it. I do so because it's fun. If folks enjoy the images---it pleases me. If they don't---it doesn't bother me in the least. However, I've seen some dandy suggestions to improve RP floated that rise up to the top only to die (and not necessarily from me, because I certainly don't have all the bright ideas, if I have any at all...). Even so, I reckon I'll keep pluggin' along until I get the call to report to duty at the big roundhouse in the sky.

I will concede that the overall quality bar for RP has been raised considerably since its earliest days. One only has to use the search feature to find thousands of images (many of them mine--bad scans, bad color, even some "unlevel") that wouldn't cut the mustard today. So in spite of my periodic rants, the overall image quality is better today than it was ten years ago. If you don't believe me...take a look

Like Mitch....I'm gonna invest in a laser light level to make darn sure every image I submit is perfectly plumb and square. Everything else about the shot can suck canal water, of course, but we damn sure gotta be on the level---even if we have to turn that SOB a mind-numbing .5 degrees CCW!! Rules is rules, boys and girls!
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:29 PM   #18
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By the way, whenever I see an unlevel picture hanging on a wall, I level it.
So if the frame is level, but the photo is unlevel, do you tilt the frame on the wall so the picture is right?

Jon
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #19
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It's not financial set-back---but lost opportunity to be even better. I would think more money would be sufficient incentive. I certainly wouldn't continue any argument with someone who wasn't interested in my ideas for their enrichment. But any good business model respects and listens to its clientele, and this is first and foremost a business. I don't get the same impression from RP. These are good guys, but they tend to be a little tone deaf at times. Surely they're not so self-absorbed with their own level of photographic skills that they're above listening to us mere members of the proletariat.
I don't disagree so much as I point out what I suspect you already realize. The financial incentives are not sufficient to have them get better in the screening dimension. You notice that they don't seem to be great listeners. I am thinking that maybe you agree with my statement, but just wish it weren't so. There are many reasons not to listed to "us" besides being "above" it or being "self-absorbed", such as the site doing well in terms of quantity of shots/views and financially, so why change or try to improve, why mess with what works, especially if (as I suspect) that messing requires more effort?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:36 PM   #20
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So if the frame is level, but the photo is unlevel, do you tilt the frame on the wall so the picture is right?

Jon
Jim carries tools with him in the car to reframe pictures on the road and get the image lined up with the frame. His friends get annoyed with his obsession but love him anyway. His real estate clients never notice.

One of these days he is going to reframe an expensive image, damage it, and lose his job. So sad, so preventable ...
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:56 PM   #21
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...I don't disagree so much as I point out what I suspect you already realize. The financial incentives are not sufficient to have them get better in the screening dimension. You notice that they don't seem to be great listeners...
Absolutely. That's why I mentioned they tended to be "tone deaf." A more common business instinct would be to seek constant improvement, based on customer feedback. Instead, you have more of "we know more than all our contributing photographers do about this stuff" attitude, that really only feeds uproar and discontent from contributors. On a typical day, that amounts to most of the grist being ground out on the RP Forum mill. Many more potential contributors don't even bother with RP, because they're not going to waste their time to have their photography critiqued by self-appointed amateurs who may not have the "chops" to render such judgements. I know that sounds harsh---and it's certainly not personal at any of the RP guys. I think if they could have an out-of-body experience and see how their screening decisions are viewed by other, probably more advanced photographers, it could be the epiphany that kicks RP into a higher--and better gear. The objective should be growth and enlightenment, and it seems to be in short supply.

At the end of the day, almost all of us are amateurs---and that's why "our" opinions on acceptable train photography are as valid as any of the RP screeners (who are all very good photographers themselves, I might add). It also explains why there's always so much weeping, wailing, rending of garments and gnashing of teeth whenever a good image is rejected for a really lame reason (a.k.a., out of level by .4 degrees---based on some arbitrary judgement on what constitutes "level"). A day doesn't pass that you don't see several such images shared here to ask "what happened?" (as well as several others that truly are crap...but I digress).

I only know I would probably do it differently---but it's not my site, and it's not my decision. I'm just one more clueless drone who posts pictures here for reasons that often elude me. Oh yes...I remember: it's for fun.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:08 PM   #22
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A more common business instinct would be to seek constant improvement, based on customer feedback.
Unfortunately, I'm not at all convinced that this is a common business instinct anywhere. From my experience, people in positions of management tend to quickly develop a sense that they know better than everyone else. After all, if all of those other people (customers, front-line employees, etc.) actually knew anything, then they'd be in management, right? Since they aren't, they must not be that intelligent.

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Old 11-06-2012, 06:17 PM   #23
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I will concede that the overall quality bar for RP has been raised considerably since its earliest days. One only has to use the search feature to find thousands of images (many of them mine--bad scans, bad color, even some "unlevel") that wouldn't cut the mustard today. So in spite of my periodic rants, the overall image quality is better today than it was ten years ago. If you don't believe me...take a look
Oh, my, yes! Some of my early scans from 2003-2004 from my old flat bed scanner are just awful. (I have been slowly replacing them, though.)

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Like Mitch....I'm gonna invest in a laser light level to make darn sure every image I submit is perfectly plumb and square. Everything else about the shot can suck canal water, of course, but we damn sure gotta be on the level---even if we have to turn that SOB a mind-numbing .5 degrees CCW!! Rules is rules, boys and girls!
Of course, this totally fails with old Penn Central, D&H, B&M, etc. shots. The the whole northeast RR scene was out of kilter. There was no level - anywhere.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:20 PM   #24
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I don't disagree so much as I point out what I suspect you already realize. The financial incentives are not sufficient to have them get better in the screening dimension. You notice that they don't seem to be great listeners. I am thinking that maybe you agree with my statement, but just wish it weren't so. There are many reasons not to listed to "us" besides being "above" it or being "self-absorbed", such as the site doing well in terms of quantity of shots/views and financially, so why change or try to improve, why mess with what works, especially if (as I suspect) that messing requires more effort?
I've often wondered if it wasn't a "cost" consideration more than a "revenue" one. If they don't limit the growth of the number of shots, storage costs might swamp revenue growth. There are only so many of us in the world that will spend time looking at train pictures.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:13 PM   #25
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Jim, switch out that huge "L" lens and lamp shade for a 50 mm lens and I'm sure your world will level out
Mitch, the 50 1.4 was my first lens purchase back when I started with a DSLR. Sadly, it didn't help my inability to hold a camera level.

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So if the frame is level, but the photo is unlevel, do you tilt the frame on the wall so the picture is right?

Jon
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Jim carries tools with him in the car to reframe pictures on the road and get the image lined up with the frame. His friends get annoyed with his obsession but love him anyway. His real estate clients never notice.

One of these days he is going to reframe an expensive image, damage it, and lose his job. So sad, so preventable ...
On the contrary, J. I rip that damn thing off the wall, smash it over my knee and then curse the idiot who had an unlevel print made in the first place!

And for the record, my obsession with unlevel pictures started long before I picked up a camera. Even as a kid in the 70s, I found myself leveling the hundreds of pictures my mom had hanging on the wall in our house.
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