Old 11-28-2012, 08:11 PM   #76
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What if the train wasn't there and I still pointed it out as being unlevel. What would I be counting then? What do landscape photographers count when they point out an unlevel horizon on sunset shot? The waves in the ocean?
Would you discount a brilliant landscape shot because it was .27789 degrees unlevel?

You guys are obsessing over a wiener issue. I'm not going to do that--I was only pointing out the OCD tendencies of those who place such a major priority on that issue. If that's what you want to do---knock yourself out.

For the record, I went out this morning and shot the NS LV unit (8104) at Stonega, VA (after getting a heads-up that it was up this way). I got about 25 or 30 shots, then came home and picked out three to upload to RP.net. Yes sir---I actually "leveled" one. When I looked at it on the screen, it looked great. But---I threw the grid on it--and sure enough, it was about 1 degree off. I rotated it and finished resizing it for RP.net. No one is perfect, eh?

It's a very nice shot (pretty much a meat and potatoes sunny day scene--but "pretty"), but I'd bet my next pension payment that RP.net's guys would have rejected it had I not done that. Why? Because that's obviously a big deal to them....and to many of you guys. And, that would have been a shame, because (again) it's a nice shot. Many good photographers among us would have said "screw it" rather than go through the exercise of "leveling." And---we would all thus be denied seeing a lot of great images. Too many rivet counters, too few train viewers.

Enough said...this is like beating a horse that's not only dead, but has completely decomposed.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:36 PM   #77
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So, which shot is the one that shows obvious signs of having been unnecessarily leveled by a grumpy geriatric???

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Nice shots, Ron. I think we all wish more of the great middle of RP was like this.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:39 PM   #78
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Many good photographers among us would have said "screw it" rather than go through the exercise of "leveling." And---we would all thus be denied seeing a lot of great images. Too many rivet counters, too few train viewers.
Leveling a photograph today (i.e. digital) should be just another part of the workflow. You do everything else in post process, correct?.

Let's skip sharpening.. that's counting rivets. To heck with cropping! More rivets to count. Do some shadow highlight work with a cloudy day photo? Pfft, I hate rivets! May we all just come home from a hard day of foaming, and just upload everything on the computer, and call it done.

Yes, a bit sarcastic, but where does it stop? If leveling isn't important, why is anything else?

To be perfectly honest, I am OCD about every part of my photography. I want to display the absolute best photos I can. It starts in the field and doesn't stop until it is edited to the best of my ability. While my photography isn't great, it will be my best effort.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:48 PM   #79
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Would you discount a brilliant landscape shot because it was .27789 degrees unlevel?
If a photographer is capable of taking a landscape photo that I would consider to be brilliant, then I would expect that photographer to be able to complete a task that is MUCH simpler than capturing that brilliant landscape shot.

I guess you've never spent any time on http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php


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Many good photographers among us would have said "screw it" rather than go through the exercise of "leveling." And---we would all thus be denied seeing a lot of great images.
The "exercise" of leveling? 10-20 seconds to level a shot takes too much effort? I already posted a tutorial video to show how incredibly easy and quick it is. With that knowledge, there is no excuse not to do it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:06 PM   #80
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Exclamation Kids didn't do slides - usually.

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I was speaking of color transparency film, not negative film. Of course you could manipulate during the printing process of the latter.
I did not do slides.

That required a wall and a projector and some power and a house to put it all in etc.

With a stack of prints you could show your friends for free with little or no planning whatsoever.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 AM   #81
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I did not do slides.

That required a wall and a projector and some power and a house to put it all in etc.

With a stack of prints you could show your friends for free with little or no planning whatsoever.
I was a print guy until about 1968, when I started shooting some slides. By 1973 I was exclusively slide-only (except for some occasional black and white negatives).

As for showing shots to my friend, I was more of a big production kind of guy, with Ektagraphic projector, nice seats, the works. Also, slides were almost the required medium for color publication (few publishers would even consider working from a color print)---so that's why I stuck with it as long as I did.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:24 AM   #82
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So, which shot is the one that shows obvious signs of having been unnecessarily leveled by a grumpy geriatric???

This one required a 1 degree CW rotation.

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Other than resizing the others, they're exactly as I shot them.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:28 AM   #83
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Leveling IS a big deal. I absolutely can't stand seeing awesome shots that are freakishly unlevel, just as much as I can't stand seeing a half-assed grade crossing wedge at an unidentifiable location that is just ever so slightly unlevel.

Ron, you're a great guy and an accomplished railroad photographer. It baffles me that you don't seem to agree about the leveling issue. It IS a problem, and I don't know if it's because people are lazy or just don't care.

I always take the extra time to level my shots as perfectly as possible. Sometimes, I screw up, and that kills me when I notice it later.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:14 AM   #84
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Ron, you're a great guy and an accomplished railroad photographer. It baffles me that you don't seem to agree about the leveling issue. It IS a problem, and I don't know if it's because people are lazy or just don't care.
Thanks. But...how many really great shots never make it to RP.net because they're one degree or less (and debatable at that) out of level? I think there are quite a few (and many wonderful photographers too).

While we've hashed this over and over, I can't understand why one degree (again, debatable) is the difference between acceptance at "The Best Railroad Pictures on the Net" and "sorry, but your shot is rejected because it's a piece of crap." That's one major reason why many people go bat-crap crazy when their shots are rejected for what they view as a frivolous reason. Perhaps that's not important, but I think it denies us all a broader array of excellent images.

Do I try to level my shots as best I can? Yes! Do I have an inordinately high number of rejections because of "unlevel"? No! Guys---it's not at all about me. I do my best to use the digital tools in my kit to render decent images. Most (but not all) of the images I upload to RP.net are accepted. For those that are rejected---the world is not being denied anything all that wonderful to see. No loss at all. My photographic skills are meager compared to many of you.

As I said before, this horse is not only dead, it's decomposed. I don't mean to argue for the sake of arguing, as I've only offered my thoughts (and many of you have returned some thoughtful rebuttals).

We should move on now.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:36 AM   #85
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All valid points, and we can agree on several things. I just had to say my piece since I joined the party late.

Moving right along!
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:13 AM   #86
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We should move on now.
What? that is completely against the culture of forums!!!!!

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While we've hashed this over and over, I can't understand why one degree (again, debatable) is the difference between acceptance at "The Best Railroad Pictures on the Net" and "sorry, but your shot is rejected because it's a piece of crap." That's one major reason why many people go bat-crap crazy when their shots are rejected for what they view as a frivolous reason.
I have to assign a good bit of the blame to those who perceive the reject as saying "it's a piece of crap" and who "go bat-crap crazy" when it happens. Why are those misperceptions RP's fault?

Now, I am also a practical person, and a practical business will respond to the perceptions of its customer base. So it isn't RP's fault, but they may want to adjust their business practices anyway.

To me the happy medium is that the reject indicate the direction of rotation that needs to be applied and some sense of the magnitude. And perhaps let slide those within 0.25 degrees. 0.5 is pushing it, and 1 degree, no way, just waay to noticeable to accept.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:27 AM   #87
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I guess I wont start my thread and just bitch here instead, this is getting really stupid.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...24&key=3831268

Maybe Jim can give the screeners a lesson on how to level their Iphones.......
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:47 AM   #88
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I guess I wont start my thread and just bitch here instead, this is getting really stupid.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...24&key=3831268

Maybe Jim can give the screeners a lesson on how to level their Iphones.......
Nice leveling, Nikos; I have no idea what the screener saw.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:39 AM   #89
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I guess I wont start my thread and just bitch here instead, this is getting really stupid.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...24&key=3831268

Maybe Jim can give the screeners a lesson on how to level their Iphones.......
Looks level to me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:31 PM   #90
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I guess I wont start my thread and just bitch here instead, this is getting really stupid.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...24&key=3831268

Maybe Jim can give the screeners a lesson on how to level their Iphones.......
This is a textbook example of what I've been talking about. It's a very nice shot.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #91
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I have to assign a good bit of the blame to those who perceive the reject as saying "it's a piece of crap" and who "go bat-crap crazy" when it happens. Why are those misperceptions RP's fault?

Now, I am also a practical person, and a practical business will respond to the perceptions of its customer base. So it isn't RP's fault, but they may want to adjust their business practices anyway.

To me the happy medium is that the reject indicate the direction of rotation that needs to be applied and some sense of the magnitude. And perhaps let slide those within 0.25 degrees. 0.5 is pushing it, and 1 degree, no way, just waay to noticeable to accept.
Well stated! Surely RP.net can't be responsible for its customers who go off the deep end because their images are rejected any more than Wal-Mart or Target can. Some people are just that way (or, they're crazy).

Adjusting their business practices as you suggested is a far better solution! If an uploaded shot is just so incredibly bad---usually for multiple reasons--I see no reason to address any deficiencies. However, for an otherwise very nice shot that might be a tad this way or that (at least in the screener's judgement)--a "Screener's Comment" would be very nice, and very helpful.

However, here's something for you guys to chew on: Some of the screeners do that now for certain "high value" contributors. No, they've never done that for me that I can recall; when a shot is rejected, it's just rejected without comment. I either have to appeal, fix it and resubmit, or just forget about it. I've done all three, but in most cases I eventually succeed.

As I think about it, I don't believe ANY of the screeners want to engage me in a debate over such issues--because it never ends. I honestly think that's why they never add any comments.

And---if you ever believe I get preferential treatment here, consider that after 2419 images posted to RP.net, I've received a Screener's Choice exactly---one time! Go figure...

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Old 11-29-2012, 01:50 PM   #92
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I place the official "level" stamp on Nikos shot. Not sure what the screener was looking at there.

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Old 11-29-2012, 02:03 PM   #93
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I know what the screener saw. It took me a moment to see it, but now it's pretty obvious to my eyes. However, I believe it's an illusion.

I agree that the buildings are level, but there is something in the scene that is not (no, not the train). I'll check back later to see if anyone figured it out.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:03 PM   #94
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I know what the screener saw. It took me a moment to see it, but now it's pretty obvious to my eyes. However, I believe it's an illusion.

I agree that the buildings are level, but there is something in the scene that is not (no, not the train). I'll check back later to see if anyone figured it out.
I downloaded the shot and studied very, very closely on the grid. I have no idea what the screener "saw"---but he blew it. This thing is dead on the money!

This is a perfect example of the pure folly of pressing this leveling issue to the extreme.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:48 PM   #95
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I assume the screener looked at the buildings - CW.

If you look at the signal box on the left, then it is level.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:00 PM   #96
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I know what the screener saw. It took me a moment to see it, but now it's pretty obvious to my eyes. However, I believe it's an illusion.

I agree that the buildings are level, but there is something in the scene that is not (no, not the train). I'll check back later to see if anyone figured it out.
Tower on the round shaped building in the center, but I dismissed it quickly as an illusion generated by the exhaust.

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Old 11-29-2012, 05:41 PM   #97
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As I think about it, I don't believe ANY of the screeners want to engage me in a debate over such issues--because it never ends. I honestly think that's why they never add any comments.
Of course they do not want to debate with you. It's either the Ron way, or the wrong way.

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Old 11-29-2012, 08:27 PM   #98
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Tower on the round shaped building in the center, but I dismissed it quickly as an illusion generated by the exhaust.
Bingo. I believe the screener fixated on that and didn't even notice that all the buildings were level.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:44 PM   #99
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Of course they do not want to debate with you. It's either the Ron way, or the wrong way.

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:48 AM   #100
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Well that confirms what I was thinking, put a guide on every building and everything showed to be level. My appeal was rejected though so apparently they are still fixated on the top of the Westin building or they dont believe in the witchcraft of superelevated curves. Ill try appealing again and attach my Jim Thias certificate of leveling approval lol.
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