Old 03-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #1
Daniel SIMON
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Default Composition / balance

I know that the "rule of thirds" is not respected here, but I however like the picture because of its human aspect. Opinions welcome. Would you appeal ?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...34&key=9474003

Thanks in advance for your comments.
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Old 03-05-2016, 05:53 PM   #2
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yes, appeal. The crop is fine. I don't see any rearrangement of the elements in the frame that makes a difference. I personally would like to see the shots a bit less tight around the family, but that isn't a "balance" issue.

Well done!
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Old 03-05-2016, 06:05 PM   #3
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I don't see any way you could change it without destroying it. Puzzled why someone wouldn't like this one.


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Old 03-05-2016, 07:50 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Noct Foamer View Post
I don't see any way you could change it without destroying it. Puzzled why someone wouldn't like this one.


Kent in SD
That is a question we have all asked after submitting at one time or another, lol.

A excerpt from an answer by Troy recently, "Screeners do weird things, we can't explain it.".

Till next time, Rich
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:14 PM   #5
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...would like to see the shots a bit less tight around the family...
Exactly...
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:46 PM   #6
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Many thanks to all of you for your input. I have appealed. If the appeal is rejected, I will try to add some more room on the left side.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:29 PM   #7
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Many thanks to all of you for your input. I have appealed. If the appeal is rejected, I will try to add some more room on the left side.
I like it, but yes, perhaps the tightness at left is the reason that it got that rejection.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:47 PM   #8
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I generally shoot things pretty loose. That way I have more options when I get home.


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Old 03-06-2016, 06:30 PM   #9
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More space on the left is not preferred. The subject is the train, the people are part of the story-telling but not subject, that's why they are off to the left. I suggest cropping close on the top bottom and left to the people to make them a frame and make them seem closer to the camera, no space, no room, and thus you have intimacy. Maybe darken them too with the burn or dodge tool, whichever darkens exposure, to try to create a bit of difference between foreground and the main parts of picture.

Here is my example crop. Having posted it I realize I am just a hair too close to the head of the woman. I think all will agree it is the right way to go here.



And here is another alternative cropping out feet. I don't like feet and I think the RP screeners may be responding to that subconsciously. This has the advantage of cropping out the bright brown foreground which clashes unfortunately with the darker green lush vegetation down in the canyon. It's a nothing foreground.

Note that the more you crop in toward the locomotive from the left the more pronounced the curve becomes in the composition. So important in a rail photo.

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Old 03-06-2016, 08:06 PM   #10
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Tastes vary. Getting rid of the kid's leg is not a plus in my book, nor is getting rid of feet. And I prefer a bit more space around the family. Not much more, a smidge more than what the original offered.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:23 PM   #11
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Here's another idea. I lowered exposure of the people, cropped, and added some darkening of the smoke for the two-tone effect
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Old 03-06-2016, 11:12 PM   #12
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I like the overall idea, but I think the problem is the people are too large and too close to the camera, relative to the train, the main subject. Being too far away, the train does not match the impact of the people. I also found myself wondering where the tracks go where they are cut off by the rock in the foreground......

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Old 03-06-2016, 11:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
I like the overall idea, but I think the problem is the people are too large and too close to the camera, relative to the train, the main subject. Being too far away, the train does not match the impact of the people. I also found myself wondering where the tracks go where they are cut off by the rock in the foreground......

Eugene
I agree with Eugene. HAving said that I like the original photo a lot. But I think there's a cross-purpose between the train shot and getting the whole family in there.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:26 AM   #14
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Image © Daniel SIMON
PhotoID: 568614
Photograph © Daniel SIMON


Looks like it got in on appeal - which shouldn't have been necessary in the first place...
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:14 AM   #15
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Congrats to Daniel Simon. Looks great!
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by AmtrakFan1093 View Post
More space on the left is not preferred. The subject is the train, the people are part of the story-telling but not subject, that's why they are off to the left.

Well-l-l-l-l, I have an honest disagreement. My approach to trains is to show how they are woven into their environment. It's not about the engine as the subject, but it's relationship to "life" around it. I would have made the people the focus with the train as a background element. This is a tough shot because it's 3-D. I.E., the foreground elements (people) are distant from the background element (train.) This makes achieving sharp focus on both more of a challenge without a tilt/shift lens. I like photos that tell a story--mother & grandmother showing grandson a train.


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Old 03-07-2016, 06:15 AM   #17
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If you kindly ask .................

Image © Daniel SIMON
PhotoID: 568614
Photograph © Daniel SIMON


Many thanks tagain to all of you for your constructive comments and ideas.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noct Foamer View Post
Well-l-l-l-l, I have an honest disagreement. My approach to trains is to show how they are woven into their environment. It's not about the engine as the subject, but it's relationship to "life" around it. I would have made the people the focus with the train as a background element. This is a tough shot because it's 3-D. I.E., the foreground elements (people) are distant from the background element (train.) This makes achieving sharp focus on both more of a challenge without a tilt/shift lens. I like photos that tell a story--mother & grandmother showing grandson a train.


Kent in SD
I agree. Storytelling is my angle. But the screeners tend to see things as being solely about the train, hence my comment above. There are several interesting approaches beyond the de rigeur train as subject but its difficult to explore those artistic avenues. See my "poor esthetic quality" rejection thread. The picture tells a story of life in the city by the bay that apparently the screeners don't want told.

As to the old sharp foreground element. Don't you just work with hyperfocal distance or rough approximations thereof? Do a wide lens and f8 or f11 focus a bit past the foreground element you want sharp and hope for the best?

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Old 03-07-2016, 01:57 PM   #19
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1. Storytelling is my angle. But the screeners tend to see things as being solely about the train, hence my comment above.

2. As to the old sharp foreground element. Don't you just work with hyperfocal distance or rough approximations thereof? Do a wide lens and f8 or f11 focus a bit past the foreground element you want sharp and hope for the best?

1. That's one of the fundamental philosophical differences I have with RPnet. I call it "engine-itis," an over preoccupation with engines. I do it too, but am trying to get beyond it.

2. Hyperfocal isn't always really sharp. It's more "reasonably" sharp. In the photo here you can see that the train is slightly fuzzy. The distance ratio is pretty extreme, and the lens movement "swing" (which is sideways tilt) probably would have helped. I shoot at f8 when I can, (unless wanting very shallow DoF) but avoid shooting anything beyond f11. A 36mp sensor can really show diffraction. And that's another thing. An FX camera has one less stop of DoF than a DX one does. Shooting weddings this is generally an advantage (isolates your subject.) Shooting landscapes (foamer photos) it's generally a disadvantage.

Here's a shot I took yesterday with the "train intermingling with local folks" theme. I did use my widest lens, Nikon 20mm f1.8G, and did shoot f8. I also backed off a ways to put some distance between me and the people. It worked out pretty well. The OP's shot above is cooler, but unfortunately I don't have a steam train and barefoot women around.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96826069@N00/25281053680/


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Old 03-07-2016, 07:28 PM   #20
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Great shot of a railroad right of way scene. I agree that the train can look garbled a bit with the hyperfocal distance and yes you aren't getting maximum sharpness at that setting. Part of problem may be that the pictures are being displayed on our screens at 1200 x 800 or something near there. That probably reveals the problem and it at smaller sizes it wouldn't look as bad. Also I wonder about the sharpening of photos and the sharpening that can come about
from resizing photos to the 1200x800 resolution, how that plays into it.

Other thing is one might not be able to to take a picture that satisfactorily displays the engine that RP seems to crave and consider the end of all art and all railfans efforts, but did we ever stop to think that it's actually quite satisfactory to have the engine not perfectly sharp wiht the numberboards legible far off in distance?
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:12 AM   #21
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If you kindly ask .................

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Many thanks tagain to all of you for your constructive comments and ideas.
Daniel
Well done Daniel on getting it in! I think the rule is "when in doubt - submit!" and see what happens.

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Old 03-10-2016, 10:28 PM   #22
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I agree. Storytelling is my angle. But the screeners tend to see things as being solely about the train, hence my comment above. There are several interesting approaches beyond the de rigeur train as subject but its difficult to explore those artistic avenues. See my "poor esthetic quality" rejection thread. The picture tells a story of life in the city by the bay that apparently the screeners don't want told.
The screeners want the story told, but rather in a more creative way than what you posted in that thread. And Robert Jordan posted the perfect example of the "story" they want told in that particular type of scene. So instead of criticizing the screeners for not appreciating whatever story you were trying to tell, try looking at other examples already in the database to get an idea of where you need to improve.

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...but did we ever stop to think that it's actually quite satisfactory to have the engine not perfectly sharp wiht the numberboards legible far off in distance?
Equipment/user failure should be considered acceptable on RP? Maybe 10+ years ago.
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:00 AM   #23
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The screeners want the story told, but rather in a more creative way than what you posted in that thread. And Robert Jordan posted the perfect example of the "story" they want told in that particular type of scene.
.
well to each his own
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