Old 06-01-2009, 12:03 PM   #1
kml928
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Default Comparison accepted photo vs. rejected

Ok, I know I am playing with fire asking to compare one of my previous rejected shots to major RP contributor and crew member AB(2)s accepted shot but I came across his recently which really got me wondering how that made it and mine was rejected.

First of all, we all know he has amazing shots in here, in fact, if I had to pick one person I have seen on this site as having the best overall photos it would be him, but I really see some inconsistent screening in these two.

Second, I like both shots.

First of all, the sun angle in my shot is not the best, sort of a high sun shot, but look at the shadows, its still on the side of the train that I shot.

My shot is on a sunny day, his shot is on a very overcast day and his is of common power, so wouldnt this fit the cloudy day/common power rejection?

In mine both monuments are fully within the frame, with his, the monument which is a major focus point in the shot is completely cutoff on the top. I have never had a photo accepted with a major element in the frame cutoff like that and when I have shot in this location that was a major thing to keep in mind bc the monuments are hard to keep fully in the shot.

I am fully prepared to be flamed and s**t on and made a RP outcast for even daring to post this, but this really bothers me. There are reasons both shots could be accepted and there are reasons both shots could be rejected. I dont think I am out of line in questioning this.

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Old 06-01-2009, 01:36 PM   #2
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First, it would help *A LOT* if you gave us some clue as to why yours was rejected. It is customary to provide a link to the actual rejection.

Second, I am one that fully supports comparing rejections and accepted shots.

Third, you have what looks here to be poor light, high sun, harsh, unappealing. Andrews is overcast and muted, which in my view fits the subject, a battlefield monument.

Fourth, you have the rear of the train cut off in an unappealing way. And whether appealing or not, RP does not tend to much like cut off trains, RP likes to see it receding into the background.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:37 PM   #3
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It may be helpful to know the reason that the Screener gave for rejecting your picture.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:41 PM   #4
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I'm not a fan of the weather in Andrew's shot. But yours differes from his in a huge way.... the train is way too far back fromright to left in your shot. I know you shot when you did so you wouldn't lose the trucks behind the ground coming up, but that shot is not going to work on RP.

The lighting, as you said, is not great in your shot. Typically, these comparision threads don't do much goood, but this one was done nicely and seems to be more constructuve than anything. But in my view, neither shot is deserving of RP.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:46 PM   #5
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It was the backlit / sun angle, whatever that rejection reason is, who knows, I dont have the link anymore bc it was awhile ago and I only thought of it when I saw his paging through the daily shots.

Im wondering why that one didnt get nailed for cloudy day / common power and also bad cropping considering there is only about 8 inches left of the monument top and its cutoff in the frame.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:54 PM   #6
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The AB2 shot also has better balance. There is a big object lower left, and then the train slices diagonally, putting stuff in the top and the right. By contrast your shot has everything in one axis and the top, especially left side, and bottom, especially right side, are empty of content. You didn't fill the frame in an interesting way.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #7
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And while we are at it, this is the one other one that really bothered me from the same location and made me think of the cloudy day reason when I saw his shot, this one was rejected for the cloudy day / common power. It was a overcast day and was snowing off and on.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #8
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Your shot is backlit. That's pretty obvious and what I would expect to happen. Your comparison shot is not.

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Old 06-01-2009, 01:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
The AB2 shot also has better balance. There is a big object lower left, and then the train slices diagonally, putting stuff in the top and the right. By contrast your shot has everything in one axis and the top, especially left side, and bottom, especially right side, are empty of content. You didn't fill the frame in an interesting way.
Fair enough, and whats your opinion on the cropping / chopped off monument top?
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Z View Post
Your shot is backlit. That's pretty obvious and what I would expect to happen. Your comparison shot is not.

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The shot may be a poor sun angle in relation to the train but its not backlit. Did you look at the shadows on the monuments? The sun was right to left.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kml928 View Post
Fair enough, and whats your opinion on the cropping / chopped off monument top?
My opinion will be expressed in my next blog entry. I haven't done one in a while (my previously lined-up topic has proven to be too ambitious to get completed), and the subject of chopping off is appealing.

I have already thought of a second image to discuss, just need to come up with a couple more. Links to images featuring major elements with chopped-off portions are greatly welcomed, thanks.

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Old 06-01-2009, 02:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kml928 View Post
The shot may be a poor sun angle in relation to the train but its not backlit. Did you look at the shadows on the monuments? The sun was right to left.
Yes, I did. The front of the monuments and loco cab front, nose and pilot are all shaded. The shadows are almost facing you.

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Old 06-01-2009, 02:12 PM   #13
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Now we seem to be getting away from constructive questioning into more of a "Why did his shot get in?" The question should remain either 1.) "Can I make my shot RP-acceptable?" or 2.) "What can I do different next time?" Not his shot doesn't belong.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:35 PM   #14
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RP uses a confusing definition of "backlit" which many times actually means "sidelit" and should be taken to mean that important surfaces of the scene (in RP's opinion!) are not receiving light. Here, the engines are poorly lit, especially the cabs, and RP just does not go for that.

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Now we seem to be getting away from constructive questioning into more of a "Why did his shot get in?" The question should remain either 1.) "Can I make my shot RP-acceptable?" or 2.) "What can I do different next time?" Not his shot doesn't belong.
Joe, nothing here has been uncivil. And I don't see anyone saying "doesn't belong" - EXCEPT YOU!!! in post #4 "neither shot is deserving of RP" - and so I wonder just why you feel the need to police this thread, and according to your own particular standards?
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:10 PM   #15
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Hmm. You are right, J. What can I say? Boy, that's almost kinda funny. I mean, isn't it? I guess my main point, which I didn't stress clearly, is that the photographer seems to be going down the road of "Wy did his shot get in and mine didn't?" or possibly "Screener got his sub par shot accepted." Maybe I was reading it wrong.

The thing people need to understand, myself included sometimes, is that just because one shot was accepted does not mean your shot (in general here) that you say is similiar (which usually eans they're not much alike) should get in. Wer've all said it before -- judge your shot on it's own.

But, again, you're right and I was being a bit hypocritical in thhis thread.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
I guess my main point, which I didn't stress clearly, is that the photographer seems to be going down the road of "Wy did his shot get in and mine didn't?"
We've just been reading it differently. But I think he is not just going but is there and in fact started from there, see this from his original post.

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Originally Posted by kml928 View Post
Ok, I know I am playing with fire asking to compare one of my previous rejected shots to major RP contributor and crew member AB(2)s accepted shot but I came across his recently which really got me wondering how that made it and mine was rejected.
I am OK with that as long as it is respectful and shows a desire to understand rather than criticize. I think that is where he is.

Yup - "judge your shot on it's own"
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:30 PM   #17
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Well, we all know what happened the last time someone compared a shot to Andrew's.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #18
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I agree with Joe's and Janusz's comments on your photo, but I don't like the way Andrew's is cropped at the top of the monument. I think it would be time well spent to resubmit it with either a tighter or looser crop =)
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:19 PM   #19
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AB2's shot both "tells a story", and is an interesting composition.

The monument is the dominant element, and immediately sets the scene at Gettysburg. The verticality of the monument is located near the left 1/3rd of the frame, and is mirrored near the right 1/3rd by the church spire in the distance. The spire and the overcast emphasize the somber setting of the battlefield. Other smaller vertical elements include the telephone poles in the middle distance, which introduce an interesting incongruous modern element to the Civil War battlefield.

Intersecting all these elements is the train, an even larger incongruity, nicely extending along a horizontal 1/3rd line, and reflected in parallel by the paved road in the distance.

Your shot lacks a dominant element or theme, and is harshly side-lit. The monuments in this scene are non-specific, and might be part of any non-descript cemetery anywhere, unless one squints to read the inscriptions. There is no "story" here, and the composition itself is less than interesting.

Thanks for asking the question, though. I learn a lot from discussions of why one shot "works", and another might fall short.
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:38 PM   #20
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I like AB's shot. It's very well composed and I personally like the overcast weather. It even appears a bit foggy, which adds to the image in my opinion. His image is well balanced as well.

Your shot suffers from being backlight, the train is too far away, you cut off the train, the color looks off, and the composition isn't doing much for me.

Try again.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kml928 View Post
It was the backlit / sun angle, whatever that rejection reason is, who knows, I dont have the link anymore bc it was awhile ago and I only thought of it when I saw his paging through the daily shots.
So you've had plenty of time to redo this shot with better lighting...why haven't you?
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:49 PM   #22
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AB2's shot both "tells a story", and is an interesting composition.

The monument is the dominant element, and immediately sets the scene at Gettysburg. The verticality of the monument is located near the left 1/3rd of the frame, and is mirrored near the right 1/3rd by the church spire in the distance. The spire and the overcast emphasize the somber setting of the battlefield. Other smaller vertical elements include the telephone poles in the middle distance, which introduce an interesting incongruous modern element to the Civil War battlefield.

Intersecting all these elements is the train, an even larger incongruity, nicely extending along a horizontal 1/3rd line, and reflected in parallel by the paved road in the distance.

Your shot lacks a dominant element or theme, and is harshly side-lit. The monuments in this scene are non-specific, and might be part of any non-descript cemetery anywhere, unless one squints to read the inscriptions. There is no "story" here, and the composition itself is less than interesting.

Thanks for asking the question, though. I learn a lot from discussions of why one shot "works", and another might fall short.
Mike, actually we are learning from you. What you stated is one of the most accurate photographic dissections I have ever read.

I looked a the the photo that started the thread and while it's a strong composition, it is uncomfortable to view.

Andrews, on the other hand, perfectly presents all the elements in a pleasing cohesive whole where the image needs to cut off the monument to work.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:20 PM   #23
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Mike, actually we are learning from you. What you stated is one of the most accurate photographic dissections I have ever read.

I looked a the the photo that started the thread and while it's a strong composition, it is uncomfortable to view.

Andrews, on the other hand, perfectly presents all the elements in a pleasing cohesive whole where the image needs to cut off the monument to work.
How does cutting off 8 inches of the top cannon ball on the monument make it work? There is no reason to chop off top of the monument when it only took literally that much more space to fit it in. There is no way you can tell me that having that top chopped off looks good in that photo, this thread was more about that part of the photo than anything.

And actually to edit this, now that I look more at both I can understand why mine needs reshot and think his should be in the database, but not with that top chopped off the monument. I have been there numerous times, but this daily train only comes through between 10am and 1pm so there is no way to get this shot on a sunny day without at least having the train sidelit. I am sure thats why he chose the overcast day bc then the sun angle doesnt matter as much. But you only have to step back a few feet to get the rest of that monument in the top of the frame and even just raising the camera slightly would have got that part in.

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Old 06-01-2009, 09:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kml928 View Post
How does cutting off 8 inches of the top cannon ball on the monument make it work? There is no reason to chop off top of the monument when it only took literally that much more space to fit it in. There is no way you can tell me that having that top chopped off looks good in that photo, this thread was more about that part of the photo than anything.
I see where this is going............

P.S. There are SEVERAL ways that anybody here can tell you that the "top chopped off" looks good in that photo! Example, it looks good with the top chopped off of the monument in Andrews photo!

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Old 06-01-2009, 09:38 PM   #25
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"kml928", I understand that you are frustrated. However, please re-read the advice given regarding your photo in question by the folks here, it is well fitting and good advice. Your photo could work if the lighting was better on that particular angle that you chose. I agree with Jimmy T, instead of dwelling on this photo for whatever time frame you have been, re-shoot it! Gettysburg is not that big of a drive from Millersville.
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