Old 07-13-2012, 05:45 PM   #1
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'cause they rejected it for "bad angle":

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...34&key=3403881

I'm gonna call "BS" on the bad angle reject because a) it's not and b) I have this virtually identical angle / situation in the db (but with not nearly as nifty trains):

Image © Michael Harding
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Usually I understand or agree with where they're coming from, but not in this case and I simply disagree. My appeal was also rejected so clearly they don't want it. Once the reject link goes dead you can also see it here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdhardi...in/photostream

Or image of the day on TO (which actually gets me a little $ vs nothing here) or possibly in a magazine later.

If you want to tell me every possible little flaw and why it shouldn't be accepted have fun, I don't care. You could perform the same excercise on almost any accepted shot in the DB - almost nothing is "perfect". My only intent was to share the image via rp.net and have it be part of my portfolio here. So I'm still sharing it on the forum anyway in case anyone here might want to see the first ever rolling meet shot between the NS OCS and NS Heritage units.

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Old 07-13-2012, 06:13 PM   #2
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That reject is a bit of a head scratcher.
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDH View Post
' My only intent was to share the image via rp.net and have it be part of my portfolio here. So I'm still sharing it on the forum anyway in case anyone here might want to see the first ever rolling meet shot between the NS OCS and NS Heritage units.

Regards,
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Just a question but just because there is not one of rp.net means it hasn't been photographed before?
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #4
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If I were to explain to you why I don't care for your photo I'd start with that giant signal and all the empty sky taking up 45% of the frame. Since you don't care to hear about that I won't go into any other details...

As long as your happy with it, that's all that really matters.
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:48 PM   #5
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Just a question but just because there is not one of rp.net means it hasn't been photographed before?
That's a good question. There have only been a handful of NS OCS (full train) trips since the first Heritage unit left the paint shop earlier this year and I don't recall any of them reportedly passing a train with a Heritage unit. I also don't remember any pictures here, on Flickr, on TO or elsewhere of such an event and can't recall seeing any in a magazine either. As far as I know it's the first time such a meet's been photographed, maybe even the first time such a meet has even happened, but I don't know for sure. If anyone's taken, seen or knows of any other similar shots let me know?

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Old 07-13-2012, 06:51 PM   #6
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If I were to explain to you why I don't care for your photo I'd start with that giant signal and all the empty sky taking up 45% of the frame.
That was the first thing that jumped out at me, too. It's a bummer that he got real lucky on the trains and the meet, but not reallly on the lighting or the placement of the signal.

But the Bad Angle rejection is still a head scratcher.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:02 PM   #7
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The shot is unlevel.

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Old 07-13-2012, 08:08 PM   #8
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:48 PM   #9
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I personally think that signal just kills it, maybe a searchlight or a semaphore but Darth Vader belongs on the death star
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:50 PM   #10
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I personally think that signal just kills it, maybe a searchlight or a semaphore but Darth Vader belongs on the death star
gaahh, maybe include a bit more of the reading loco?
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:13 AM   #11
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Sharpen it, maybe a little CCW, and maybe try for a different screener.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coaststarlight14 View Post
gaahh, maybe include a bit more of the reading loco?
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I personally think that signal just kills it,
Image © Cinderpath
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Originally Posted by MDH View Post
If anyone's taken, seen or knows of any other similar shots let me know?
Yeah, there was one uploaded to RP after your forum post! Maybe you saw the other guy standing beside you?

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Old 07-14-2012, 06:34 AM   #13
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I personally think that signal just kills it, maybe a searchlight or a semaphore but Darth Vader belongs on the death star
Looks like similar to previous now.

Image © Cinderpath
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beat me to it by a whisker Joe.

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Old 07-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #14
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Yeah, there was one uploaded to RP after your forum post! Maybe you saw the other guy standing beside you?
I can't figure it out. One shot is at CP286, the other at CP289. Michael's shot shows 4 people's shadows, including a pair of people over on the right side. Indecline's shot appears to have the same pair (he is the left of the two) and the middle person, hard to tell if the shadow on the left is Michael. What bugs me is that I can't see how they can be at the same location as the signal is waay to close to the tracks for a modest shift of position to leave the engine clear of it, as in the accepted shot. So maybe the train was moving.

Oh, wait, I get it. Indecline's remark says the OCS was not moving. So he caught the train when the Reading had moved forward, clear of the signal.

I probably would have preferred Michael's shot, had their been some puffy clouds in the sky. Indecline's shot has the two noses just too close together for my tastes.
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Old 07-14-2012, 02:39 PM   #15
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I can't figure it out. One shot is at CP286, the other at CP289. Michael's shot shows 4 people's shadows, including a pair of people over on the right side. Indecline's shot appears to have the same pair (he is the left of the two) and the middle person, hard to tell if the shadow on the left is Michael. What bugs me is that I can't see how they can be at the same location as the signal is waay to close to the tracks for a modest shift of position to leave the engine clear of it, as in the accepted shot. So maybe the train was moving.

Oh, wait, I get it. Indecline's remark says the OCS was not moving. So he caught the train when the Reading had moved forward, clear of the signal.

I probably would have preferred Michael's shot, had their been some puffy clouds in the sky. Indecline's shot has the two noses just too close together for my tastes.
Just to clear up a few things, Myself, Mr Valentine, Aaron Border and someone else I didn't know where all there. The location is CP 286 from the Oakdale Ave crossing - 289 was either a typo or miss-ID by Mr Valentine (CP 289 is the eastern entrance to Toledo yard on the other side of the Maumee River). I'll admit I'm pretty surprised how much difference 10 or 15 feet made in the angle he got. Of course I was trying to get us all more off to the side for the meet and initially people didn't want to move so I had to quickly set up where I did and then last second several others moved over. For my original shot I had to crop out Aaron who was on the right side of my framing. "Rushed" barely describes it since both trains were moving pretty good. I was happy with what I got and depending on your opinion with the signal you may well like his better - the screeners apparently did even though the "bad angle" is not significantly different than mine.

Yes - I was a little 'irked' over the initial rejection, but didn't really care by morning. This all just shows how inconsistent the screening can be here. Take if however you want.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:38 PM   #16
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Not me - I live in the Pacific Northwest. The odds of me getting a shot of a NS Hertiage unit are next to zero, none, nada. I have yet to shoot the Mopac and Rio Grande UP units.



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Quote:
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I can't figure it out. One shot is at CP286, the other at CP289. Michael's shot shows 4 people's shadows, including a pair of people over on the right side. Indecline's shot appears to have the same pair (he is the left of the two) and the middle person, hard to tell if the shadow on the left is Michael. What bugs me is that I can't see how they can be at the same location as the signal is waay to close to the tracks for a modest shift of position to leave the engine clear of it, as in the accepted shot. So maybe the train was moving.

Oh, wait, I get it. Indecline's remark says the OCS was not moving. So he caught the train when the Reading had moved forward, clear of the signal.

I probably would have preferred Michael's shot, had their been some puffy clouds in the sky. Indecline's shot has the two noses just too close together for my tastes.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:53 PM   #17
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Yes - I was a little 'irked' over the initial rejection, but didn't really care by morning. This all just shows how inconsistent the screening can be here. Take if however you want.
While I agree the screening is sometimes inconsistent I do not see how this instance is an example of such behavior. Your photo still has a giant, awkward looking signal and his does not. It's a neat scene but I still clearly see why his photo was accepted.
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:46 PM   #18
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While I agree the screening is sometimes inconsistent I do not see how this instance is an example of such behavior. Your photo still has a giant, awkward looking signal and his does not. It's a neat scene but I still clearly see why his photo was accepted.
This just demonstrates the subjectivity of photography. I'd gotten several comments to the effect that the signal helps the shot, gives it more sense of place and shows it on a busy class I rather than a staged museum shot or something. Personally I think both versions are good and work - just different.

Obviously the screener probably agrees with you and doesn't like it though - hence mine rejected and his accepted. That doesn't make either "right" or "wrong" except in the eyes of whoever's making that decision. The "bad angle" reject was part of what irked me if the real issue they had was "obstruction". I'd say I have a little better angle & separation between the trains (with the 'tradeoff' being the signal inclusion), but again, that's my opinion. I respect your opinion (and theirs)... I just don't agree with it.

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Old 07-14-2012, 08:03 PM   #19
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Agreed, the signal helps the shot as does the distance between the units which is not in Mr. Valentine's shot. The signal also shows that at least the coal train is in fact moving.

I am pretty much done with RP, I can shoot Sunny Wedgies all day and get every one of them in and that is boring as heck to me. If I shoot something that meets the qualifications here I upload here, but I no longer shoot with the intent to upload to RP and that makes me happy.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:41 PM   #20
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I am pretty much done with RP, I can shoot Sunny Wedgies all day and get every one of them in and that is boring as heck to me. If I shoot something that meets the qualifications here I upload here, but I no longer shoot with the intent to upload to RP and that makes me happy.
I think just about everyone would agree that one should not shoot solely with intent to upload to RP. But there are lots and lots and lots of shots other than "Sunny Wedgies" accepted every day; RP has a pretty wide spectrum, actually (albeit one end is heavily represented!). So no need to go into boring mode. No need for "done with" statements either. Just shoot and have fun, and share in whatever venues you want to or can.

Or perhaps you previously were too strong on the "intent to upload to RP" side and now you are going through a perfectly healthy reset? More about you than RP?

I don't understand all the frustration out there, sometimes.
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:16 PM   #21
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The over abundance of sunny day, totally obscure location wedges just drive me nuts though.

I still upload here but rarely and my acceptance rate was 75% or so until recently with a rash of rejects.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:50 AM   #22
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The signal is a viable element. i just think the Reading unit extending to the left is very bad for the composition since it pulls the eye in a painful direction like a badly done 3D movie. The eye wants to go to the right but is pulled to the left.

My take of a crop.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:00 AM   #23
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Just to clear up a few things, Myself, Mr Valentine, Aaron Border and someone else I didn't know where all there. The location is CP 286 from the Oakdale Ave crossing - 289 was either a typo or miss-ID by Mr Valentine (CP 289 is the eastern entrance to Toledo yard on the other side of the Maumee River). I'll admit I'm pretty surprised how much difference 10 or 15 feet made in the angle he got.
-Yes it was a typo, since fixed.

As with all things, it is interesting how different photographers approach the same situation, and the image can look quite different. I had wanted to shoot this initially with a different; longer focal length, but wound up having to go to 24mm full frame, to capture more of the RDG than the nose + the OCS, as it all happened in a matter of a few seconds, as the OCS was closer than I would have liked; so I had to deal with the situation as it was.

I fully expected to see Mr Harding's shot on here that night, and was surprised when it was not. I thought he too was keeping it for something more important than RP.net (Yes they exist). I never checked the forum here to find it was rejected, as I come here once in a blue moon. But the significance of the encounter swayed me to upload it. I don't often contribute to RP.net; most of my work is quite different from what is on this site. Which is neither good nor bad; just different. And I shoot for myself first and foremost. I looked it up and realized in the the last 3 years I have averaged one shot per year; but they were well received.

Nonetheless, I like both images, and I like the signal in MDH's shot, as it also puts the scene in modern times. Calling them Darth Vader signals, or what ever one likes, but it represents the here and now, which is important in documentary photography. I wouldn't have rejected his shot; there is nothing wrong with it. It's a perfectly acceptable photo; but I don't know how screeners think or what they are after, but from time-to-time, my work coincides with what they are looking for. And when it doesn't, so what?

As for the idea that this was the first shot of the OCS meeting a heritage unit, could be a stretch. I suspect this happened before, and it may have been photographed; how do we know? Maybe they too are keeping it for a different venue, or only for themselves. Remember, we don't know what we don't know. Just because one has not been uploaded here, does not mean it does not exist. More importantly, this will happen again, and it will probably be much better executed. In my 28 years of photography, and latter business, I have learned it is not always who does it first, rather who does it better. Just ask Nokia and Blackberry about the iPhone...... Like O. Winston Link was not the first guy to take night photos of trains (Far from it), he did however do it differently and often better. I am sure the same will happen here, and it might even be a cool night shot of a a rolling meet? My only hope is that it does happen.
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