Old 01-22-2012, 06:27 PM   #26
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you guys are saying the same thing and arguing about it. photog's choice, like I said.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:47 PM   #27
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Photog's choice, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that wide angle distortion is due to equipment limitations and there are simple ways to fix it, not to mention a fixed shot is generally more appealing.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #28
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No guys.....it is not "leaning."
Ron, your red line clearly shows that the center is leaning to the left a bit.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:01 PM   #29
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Horses---! It's not whoring yourself, or lowering your standards, or compromising your integrity! It's fixing a technical issue generated by the lens. Therefore, not part of the scene as captured!

If it's wrong to correct a flaw generated outside of my artistic vision, then I'll be wrong till death. I just hope I don't end up in a hot shower crying in the fetal position over it...

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If you're only doing those things to conform to RP's interpretation of whether a shot is acceptable, or not, it could indeed be judged as "whoring." Granted, many of the shots thrown up for opinions on the forum fall far short of any acceptable standard---but the shot in question is not flawed. That was my point. There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction too often that a rejection must mean a shot has some fatal flaw. It ain't so, folks!

Guys...I really enjoy RP, and I do not present myself as an all-knowing photographic master. My own work is truly mediocre. However, there is far too much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth (or showering in the fetal position...) over RP rejections. It's their site---and their opinion---and I respect both of those points. However, it never means they're always right.

Have a little backbone and KNOW that your shots are good without groveling for RP's approval. And----lay off all the Photoshop bells and whistles*, because it takes away from the basic skill sets necessary to be a good photographer.

*Not to be confused with using Photoshop to correct old, faded or color-shifted images or clean up slide or negative scans.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:12 PM   #30
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If you're only doing those things to conform to RP's interpretation of whether a shot is acceptable, or not, it could indeed be judged as "whoring."
What if I'm doing it for myself? Am I still a whore?

Quote:
However, there is far too much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth (or showering in the fetal position...)
You may have just created a new RP-related meme.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:14 PM   #31
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Miscellany

- the shot is level, as Ron said, or pretty darn close to it, in my view. It looks funny, though, and we have all seen bunches of cases where level shots look unlevel and vice versa. Leveling on the dominant vertical, the near corner of the building, will fix that.

- I have a preference for perspective control, but I don't think it is necessary and I don't agree with Lloyd about "the scene as captured." A camera is a tool, not a mirror. No scene has only one look.

- the historic shot, people say it isn't wide, fine, but even if it were, there were lots of medium format cameras with tilt shift so saying a historical shot is perspective controlled isn't saying much
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:17 PM   #32
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- the historic shot, people say it isn't wide, fine, but even if it were, there were lots of medium format cameras with tilt shift so saying a historical shot is perspective controlled isn't saying much
Kind of my point of posting it. Today's lenses (aside from an actual tilt-shift) are technically flawed when it comes to the wide angle end. And because of that, I find it completely acceptable to take any means necessary to correct that flaw to make an image look closer to how our eyes see it. There is nothing wrong with making an image look REAL.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:01 PM   #33
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Kind of my point of posting it. Today's lenses (aside from an actual tilt-shift) are technically flawed when it comes to the wide angle end. And because of that, I find it completely acceptable to take any means necessary to correct that flaw to make an image look closer to how our eyes see it. There is nothing wrong with making an image look REAL.
AMEN to that! (...all what Jim said, not just the last sentence)
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:25 PM   #34
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What if I'm doing it for myself? Am I still a whore?
Nope. In that case, you're fine. That's just self-abuse.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:54 PM   #35
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My eye must be wacked then. The building (main) looks straight to me. The two outer building look like they are leaning inwards slightly to me.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:55 PM   #36
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if you have PS open and you've been dicking with the color, contrast, white balance, cropping, leveling, re-sizing, de-noise, etc, perspective correction is among the easiest things to do.

I forgot what point I was going to make, I'll just head out and shoot some film right now...
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:28 PM   #37
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My eye must be wacked then. The building (main) looks straight to me. The two outer building look like they are leaning inwards slightly to me.
Slightly???
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:09 PM   #38
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Real is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen images that look off because fully perspective controlled\; they look better with a bit of wedging in at the top. Remember, Jim, I like doing perspective control. But I don't think everyone should necessarily have to follow my preferences.

Just like, and it hurts to say this, but people should not be banned from doing sepia.
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:09 AM   #39
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Just like, and it hurts to say this, but people should not be banned from doing sepia.
Well thank you!

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Old 01-23-2012, 12:14 AM   #40
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Should this shot be "fixed" for "lens distortion"? (no pun intended) How is this different from the shot of the building? Is this "level"? If so, at what specific point in the image is it "level"?

Really...I'm just trying to learn.

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Old 01-23-2012, 01:30 AM   #41
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Real is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen images that look off because fully perspective controlled\; they look better with a bit of wedging in at the top. Remember, Jim, I like doing perspective control. But I don't think everyone should necessarily have to follow my preferences.
No, I'm just saying that no one should look at perspective correction as manipulation, cheating, a gimmick feature, or whatever, because the whole point of it is to bring the photo as close to reality as possible. Sure, there are times where it's pretty close to impossible to get it "right," but most of the time you can correct an image to get it looking a heck of a lot more accurate than an untouched image showing full wide angle distortion (like AB2's photo).

Also, "real" should be the same to everyone, unless you have some rare eye condition that distorts objects like a wide angle lens does. Preference is in the eye of the beholder, but reality (or lack there of as in the case of wide angle distortion), is not.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:36 AM   #42
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Should this shot be "fixed" for "lens distortion"? (no pun intended) How is this different from the shot of the building? Is this "level"? If so, at what specific point in the image is it "level"?

Really...I'm just trying to learn.

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If I had taken that shot, I would have corrected it. If my photoshop (CS2) wasn't broken on my computer right now, I'd show you. Unfortunately I won't have CS5 until next Saturday, so I can't edit any photos for a week. I think I'm going to go through withdrawls.

By the way, flip flops in the cab of a running steam locomotive? BLASPHEMOUS!
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:39 AM   #43
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No, I'm just saying that no one should look at perspective correction as manipulation, cheating, a gimmick feature, or whatever, because the whole point of it is to bring the photo as close to reality as possible.
I think that's where I'm out of sync with you guys. I don't see the point, as a goal, to correct the intentional distortion of a wide angle lens. I love the "effect" of a wide angle, particularly the ultra-wide views such as the shot Chase took that I referenced (inside the cab of the Cass Shay). When you go through all the manipulations (yes, that's what it is..) to "correct" something that shouldn't be "corrected" in the first place, that's where I diverge from many of your thoughts on this matter.

I'm not trying to be argumentative (really, I'm not...), but I wonder about why people do these things. I'm just asking why.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:43 AM   #44
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I would like to think that a lot of you would realize that the distortion shown in Chase's shot is a lot more acceptable than buildings which look like they are falling over...
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:47 AM   #45
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I think that's where I'm out of sync with you guys. I don't see the point, as a goal, to correct the intentional distortion of a wide angle lens. I love the "effect" of a wide angle, particularly the ultra-wide views such as the shot Chase took that I referenced (inside the cab of the Cass Shay). When you go through all the manipulations (yes, that's what it is..) to "correct" something that shouldn't be "corrected" in the first place, that's where I diverge from many of your thoughts on this matter.

I'm not trying to be argumentative (really, I'm not...), but I wonder about why people do these things. I'm just asking why.
What if wide angle lenses didn't create distortion? Would you accept the artificial distortion created in photoshop?

Wide angle distortion isn't reality to the human eye. Distortion is a side effect of technology that can't recreate what the human eye sees. Unless you want to fork out a ton of cash for a tilt shift lens, you're going to have to deal with the limitations of cheaper wide angle lenses. And because of that, I find correcting the side effect of that limitation perfectly acceptable to return an image to being as close to reality as the human eye would see it.

I don't love the effect of wide angle distortion. In fact, I hate it. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it than most photographers because I have to deal with it on a daily basis with my job, and for the most part, wide angle distorted images are unacceptable. Unfortunately I can't afford any tilt-shift lenses, so I have to work with the limited equipment I have and make the proper corrections when necessary.

This is a good discussion, Ron, and I really don't view it as an argument.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:56 AM   #46
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What ever happened to the artistic view of things? Does a photographer have artistic license to do what he wants with his photo or is it strictly documentary?

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Old 01-23-2012, 02:34 AM   #47
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What ever happened to the artistic view of things? Does a photographer have artistic license to do what he wants with his photo or is it strictly documentary?

Chris Z
Sometimes the best way to clarify a point is to simply restate it...

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In this case, I see nothing beneficial in presenting [this] distorted and uncorrected photograph. Sometimes it is beneficial:

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but here, it is not.

/Mitch

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I think if a photographer hopes to have his/her shot accepted on RP, it has to be more documentary. "Artistic license" here is more of a learner's permit.

Sometimes the best way to clarify a point is to simply restate it...

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In this case, I see nothing beneficial in presenting [this] distorted and uncorrected photograph. Sometimes it is beneficial:

Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 302847
Photograph © Travis Dewitz


but here, it is not.

/Mitch

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Old 01-23-2012, 02:40 AM   #48
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What ever happened to the artistic view of things? Does a photographer have artistic license to do what he wants with his photo or is it strictly documentary?

Chris Z
I think if a photographer hopes to have his/her shot accepted on RP, it has to be more documentary. "Artistic license" here is more of a learner's permit.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:46 AM   #49
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I don't love the effect of wide angle distortion. In fact, I hate it. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it than most photographers because I have to deal with it on a daily basis with my job, and for the most part, wide angle distorted images are unacceptable. Unfortunately I can't afford any tilt-shift lenses, so I have to work with the limited equipment I have and make the proper corrections when necessary.

This is a good discussion, Ron, and I really don't view it as an argument.
Agreed....good discussion. However, what's the point of using a wide angle to introduce distortion, only to use Photoshop to "undistort" the image?

We did find one interesting item here: you don't care for the distortion of a wide angle lens, while I do. That would make you far more inclined to seek a lens correction with Photoshop (while I wouldn't). My shot, evidently, wouldn't be accepted by RP...because I didn't conform to the prevalent philosophy. I can accept that...and peddle my peaches somewhere else (or just let them rot in the basket) if I choose not to "undistort" my intentially distorted wide angle shots.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:57 AM   #50
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I think that's where I'm out of sync with you guys. I don't see the point, as a goal, to correct the intentional distortion of a wide angle lens.
The distortion on Andrew's shot was likely as intentional as the hiss on a audio cassette tape. It was most likely a shortcoming of the lens used rather then an intentional distortion. If it was intentional, I do not see the value nor benefit of the effect. Keep in mind, the thread was originally not about perspective correction but how to make the shot look level (which most likely, aside from correcting the perspective, would be to like the building's corner rather then just the center of the shot to the left).

Quote:
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I love the "effect" of a wide angle, particularly the ultra-wide views such as the shot Chase took that I referenced (inside the cab of the Cass Shay).
I agree with Troy here - it's much less of an issue. I don't have to tilt my head to view it.

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When you go through all the manipulations (yes, that's what it is..) to "correct" something that shouldn't be "corrected" in the first place, that's where I diverge from many of your thoughts on this matter.
True. Once you correct things THAT SHOULDN'T BE CORRECTED, you have entered the arena of art and illustration. Andrew's shot "should" be corrected to fix the unintentional distortion created by the lens. Photoshop is cheaper then a Tilt-Shift lens. And again, the effect does not have the appeal that Travis's towering skyscraper has and unlike Chase's close quarter wide angle shot, it's much more awkward (and fixable).

Ron - I know where you are coming from but not all defects are beneficial nor add intentional character.

Two prime examples that may best illustrated your perspective would be the rumbling and clicking of a record vrs the quiet and noise free CD. There, you have a defect that "adds" warmth and perhaps an "accurate" feel for the sound as recorded some of us grew up with.

To that end - I highly recommend watching Quentin Tarantino's 70's inspired flick: Death Proof". Complete with lines running up the screen, sloppy edits and even some burned film cells. Absolutely wild and INTENTIONAL flaws that add to the character and intent of the film.

/Mitch
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