Old 12-30-2009, 06:07 AM   #76
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Hmmm...you mean by "comprehend" that I must agree with your assessment, I think I have shown overwhelmingly that it is at least a confused issue. Please show me where I am arguing...let me say again, I just asked if the guidelines have been changed or some admin has made a declaration. No arguing on my part I just have imparted my opinion like you...take it or leave it. Here is my question for reference:

" So are HDR images being openly accepted here now or do they still violate RP's submission rules? "
How many times are you going to ask this before you eventually realize that I, along with other members, have been answering your question repeatedly? We've told you a handful of times. It's not our opinions, it's the fact. You may ask where we're getting these facts from, so to save you the trouble of asking, I'll tell you. I am on this site more than I should be. Any one who talks to me on a regular basis can confirm that is true.

With that being said, I pay close attention to the accepted images, their compositions, their quality, etc. and so on. Occasionally, it's fairly common that an HDR shot will pop up, thus validating my fact that Railpictures and their screeners do indeed accept HDR. Bluntly, that is the truth, and if you fail to recognize that is the reality of this discussion, then honestly, there is no hope for you and I won't bother contributing my time and effort in trying to show you the actual reality of the situation. You can accuse me all day long of me simply expressing my opinions, but the reality of this discussion, and I'm certain others agree is that HDR is accepted. While it is not extremely common, it is not uncommon to see it. If it was prohibited, the screeners would reject it. The screeners control what gets accepted. If HDR is accepted, then obviously, it is acceptable. At that time, the guidelines become irrelevant.


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...well if I really need to. Understand this is a quote from an earlier thread from the last several years as I noted...so I am not sure of the exact date but it is referring to that image at that time.
You still failed to answer my question in that what makes the PCA # 1 an HDR image.

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Old 12-30-2009, 06:31 AM   #77
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How many times are you going to ask this before you eventually realize that I, along with other members, have been answering your question repeatedly? We've told you a handful of times. It's not our opinions, it's the fact. You may ask where we're getting these facts from, so to save you the trouble of asking, I'll tell you. I am on this site more than I should be. Any one who talks to me on a regular basis can confirm that is true.
I hear ya...I need to get a life too!

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With that being said, I pay close attention to the accepted images, their compositions, their quality, etc. and so on. Occasionally, it's fairly common that an HDR shot will pop up, thus validating my fact that Railpictures and their screeners do indeed accept HDR. Bluntly, that is the truth, and if you fail to recognize that is the reality of this discussion, then honestly, there is no hope for you and I won't bother contributing my time and effort in trying to show you the actual reality of the situation. You can accuse me all day long of me simply expressing my opinions, but the reality of this discussion, and I'm certain others agree is that HDR is accepted. While it is not extremely common, it is not uncommon to see it. If it was prohibited, the screeners would reject it. The screeners control what gets accepted. If HDR is accepted, then obviously, it is acceptable. At that time, the guidelines become irrelevant.
Okay, last time before bed...no one including me disagrees with you that HDR images are getting in. So are unlevel shots, does this now mean that unlevel images are acceptable...of course not. You are drawing a conclusion which has validity, no doubt about it...and I never said it didn't. I am just drawing another conclusion just as credible as yours to me, perhaps with a little more authority since I am just using the guidelines for my basis. We can agree to disagree, I see no harm in this and we can move on to some other worthy topic.

btw...let me know when you do that supposedly impossible moving train HDR image! I should have kept that one secret for a future post!!




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You still failed to answer my question in that what makes the PCA # 1 an HDR image.
No, I answered it...apparently though not to your satisfaction. Maybe you are actually wanting me to elaborate on the actual image, send me the link and I would be glad to...but it will be for tomorrow. Gnite.
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:16 PM   #78
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" So are HDR images being openly accepted here now or do they still violate RP's submission rules? "
Asked and answered. The remaining issue is that the answer is ambiguous and your brain can't seem to wrap itself around ambiguity.

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Okay, I thought I presented a clear and concise reason to you...you don't agree, cool no problem. You continue to call this an argument, but really I don't even see this as much as you don't like my opinion with supporting facts.

...

...and where is this guideline found? ...and does it supersede the current minimal manipulation rule?
Chill on the guidelines, they are out of date, perhaps intentionally, perhaps simply slovenly. Your "supporting facts," therefore, are a reed in the wind.

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Well all this is just fine and dandy but it does not have any validity. It is all your conjecture and opinion. Simply having HDR shots accepted does not negate any rules or somehow magically change everyone's thoughts on it. It could very well mean that the screenies accidentally allowed some in...no different from some of any number of unlevel, cloned or whatever contraband that may get in. The only fact is that there are some HDR shots in the database, no more no less..
Yes, actions do negate rules, or rather they reflect the impact of the rules. Put differently, the speed limit of 65 mph on interestate highways away from population centers is a hard and fast legal rule, with teeth, and look at the result. Chill on the guidelines!

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Joe, your comment cuts it down to the chase...only RP can dictate ultimately, no question about that. ...and no existing image(s) can dictate that any future image will be accepted.
But existing practice is often a good guide to future practice. We are telling you it is a better guide than the existing guidelines. You are resisting that statement, perhaps out of a stubbornness that I cannot fathom.

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Okay, last time before bed...no one including me disagrees with you that HDR images are getting in. So are unlevel shots, does this now mean that unlevel images are acceptable...of course not. You are drawing a conclusion which has validity, no doubt about it...and I never said it didn't. I am just drawing another conclusion just as credible as yours to me, perhaps with a little more authority since I am just using the guidelines for my basis. We can agree to disagree, I see no harm in this and we can move on to some other worthy topic.
Your "more authority" is in fact less authority so your argument is thus less credible. That is what we are telling you and you are not grasping. You may make or be a good lawyer.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:13 PM   #79
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Apparently he's ignoring me, but can someone ask him to answer this:
http://forums.railpictures.net/showp...2&postcount=68
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:40 PM   #80
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Asked and answered. The remaining issue is that the answer is ambiguous and your brain can't seem to wrap itself around ambiguity.



Chill on the guidelines, they are out of date, perhaps intentionally, perhaps simply slovenly. Your "supporting facts," therefore, are a reed in the wind.



Yes, actions do negate rules, or rather they reflect the impact of the rules. Put differently, the speed limit of 65 mph on interestate highways away from population centers is a hard and fast legal rule, with teeth, and look at the result. Chill on the guidelines!



But existing practice is often a good guide to future practice. We are telling you it is a better guide than the existing guidelines. You are resisting that statement, perhaps out of a stubbornness that I cannot fathom.



Your "more authority" is in fact less authority so your argument is thus less credible. That is what we are telling you and you are not grasping. You may make or be a good lawyer.
Perfectly said, Janusz. Now as to whether or not he'll comprehend it and realize his question has been answered repeatedly, who knows.

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Old 12-30-2009, 03:37 PM   #81
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Really, that is wild! I am only familiar with the Canon side of the cameras which to my knowledge does not have this capability. I guess if folks wanted too they could kinda do the same thing with the black card trick in front of the lens while in bulb or longer type exposures.
Yes you could and I wish Canon would add that feature back in like there film cameras had.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:40 PM   #82
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Travis..I think you make some interesting points! I totally agree that when the rules were written they could not or did not even consider future abilities. That is why they should be amended to grow with the times IMHO.

So if I were to take your reasoning out... if I were to clone out/add-in an object in my image to make it more natural this is acceptable? The "ect." seemingly is all-encompassing?
I think the rest of the photography world is on board with proper use of hdr. Cloning things out? I think most are ok with very small changes like wires and/or birds that look like black dots. They did it it in the darkrooms back in the day, but I know your 1 hour photo store probably won't do it for you. I think people forget that the pros made many changes and adjustments in their darkrooms, it's the amatures that stopped at Kmart style photo labs that are stuck on the what came from my camera is the only right way.

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Old 12-30-2009, 03:45 PM   #83
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RPnet is a blend of documentors and artists. Most of my photography is art to me. Some people shoot to document. Some are a blend of both. RP is a blend of both. More of you need to see and realize that. These are my creations. I couls careless on a roster shot to show the details of unit X.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:53 PM   #84
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One last point.

Are guidelines and rules different?

What are guidelines? Can guidelines be broken w/o consequence? Do guidelines need to be followed exactly? Are there exceptions to guidelines?

What are rules? Can rules be broken w/o consequence? You get the point.
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:54 AM   #85
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Really, that is wild! I am only familiar with the Canon side of the cameras which to my knowledge does not have this capability. I guess if folks wanted too they could kinda do the same thing with the black card trick in front of the lens while in bulb or longer type exposures.
I really wish I had thought of the black card trick when I took this shot:

Image © Jim Thias
PhotoID: 308612
Photograph © Jim Thias


I'm kicking myself for not getting those signals lit. Of course, they came on as soon as the head-end passed. Had I used a black card, I could have put it in front of the lens and as soon as the train passed, dropped it for a few seconds to capture the lit signals before finally closing the shutter.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:24 AM   #86
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Asked and answered. The remaining issue is that the answer is ambiguous and your brain can't seem to wrap itself around ambiguity.
I believe I understand your position(s), here is a quick summary: “if it is in the archives then it must be acceptable” and or if it is "realistic". Same for Chase, he concludes by seeing what is in the archives as the golden rule to what is acceptable, 'if others are doing it then so can I'! I would call this self-evident and totally verifiable in that HDR images are in the archives, as I have been stating/agreeing all along...nothing new here keep moving!

Does this sum it up basically? If so, I have no problem/issue seeing your reasoning and your conclusions. The only difference I have is that we also have RP's site rules that are clear 'to me' on digital manipulations. The word and deed are in direct conflict with each other to me, this is the problem. The problem is not that HDR/Composites/High Noon/Unlevel and any other images can be accepted.

From day one several years ago when I first reviewed the site rules that was the conclusion (that HDR is not allowed due to manipulation) that I and several other seasoned members determined, much as I didn't want it to. (If I remember correctly even you were on this side of the fence, stating that you were "hoping" RP would see fit to allow them alluding to manipulation rule barrier) I accepted the rules but vowed to check in from time to time knowing that HDR was here to stay and would be a force on RP as well. I knew that RP would eventually concede (knowingly or not) to the HDR/TM...I just assumed they would also update their rules to conform/legitimize to the deed. Not one letter has been changed with respect to the rules. The only thing that has changed is the increased HDR submissions/acceptance which now somehow should be retroactive/redefining/reversing or automatically rewriting the standing rule regarding manipulations.


Quote:
Chill on the guidelines, they are out of date, perhaps intentionally, perhaps simply slovenly. Your "supporting facts," therefore, are a reed in the wind.

Yes, actions do negate rules, or rather they reflect the impact of the rules. Put differently, the speed limit of 65 mph on interestate highways away from population centers is a hard and fast legal rule, with teeth, and look at the result. Chill on the guidelines!
I like rules. Do not brush them aside so easily, we live by them.

Interesting...show me where breaking the speed limit has caused the law (speed limit) to be changed other than perhaps slower which is in this analogy would be taking away PP allowances? Go ahead and drive 90mph on any interstate and see how quick they update the signs!

Here is another saying that comes to mind, "Ignorance of the law excuses no one". This seems very apropos here.

Quote:
But existing practice is often a good guide to future practice. We are telling you it is a better guide than the existing guidelines. You are resisting that statement, perhaps out of a stubbornness that I cannot fathom.
At what time did HDR become existing practice versus new practice here on RP? This seems kind of self fulfilling?

Quote:
Your "more authority" is in fact less authority so your argument is thus less credible. That is what we are telling you and you are not grasping. You may make or be a good lawyer.
As much as I respect your thoughts do they really exceed the authority presented here on RP when you are playing in their court? Maybe you are the admin incognito...in which fact I humbly await your decree!

Wow...now you are lowering yourself to personal name calling! I have been called a lot of things but a "lawyer"....cruel!

Now unless someone has something new I think this has run it's course and as I have said several times we can agree to disagree. Some folks are bent on making this out to an argument or debate, ...well I can't change their view but it is just a discussion to me and far from any kind of argument.

btw...here is a link to a Plenoptic camera that is being tested for HDR I think you might find interesting:
http://www.tgeorgiev.net/HDR_Plenoptic/HDR.pdf
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:33 AM   #87
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Perfectly said, Janusz. Now as to whether or not he'll comprehend it and realize his question has been answered repeatedly, who knows.

Chase

Chase, I have to chuckle. Here is a quote from you from just the other day:

"I am familiar with RP, I more or less wanted to give it a shot and see how it'd go. Despite the recent discussion regarding the other moon image, I noticed it was not removed from the database, which lead me to believe that perhaps these types of images may be accepted. Plus, HDR, when tastefully done has also been known to be accepted. I am still trying to understand the fine line between manipulation and an acceptable photo here on RP." Emphasis added

...and you are preaching to me about what is acceptable....hmmm.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:46 AM   #88
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Yes you could and I wish Canon would add that feature back in like there film cameras had.
I am curious as to why this is wanted feature for you?
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:06 AM   #89
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Cloning things out? I think most are ok with very small changes like wires and/or birds that look like black dots.
I was just extrapolating out that determining to what level cloning is acceptable which is similar to our discussion here and where is the line drawn and or how it is drawn.

For instance is it okay with RP to make an image more realistic using PS tools such as the clone tool and blur filters?

For example let's say we go to Japan...you pay my way of course and we have separate rooms, and we shoot the high speed bullet train. Now I shoot the train using a high shutter speed which eliminates all motion blur. Now I get back home and realize what a dufus I was, I really should have used a slower shutter speed to impart the great speed of our bullet train. If I were to then edit/manipulate my static image by selecting the train duping it and use the motion blur filter to simulate the awesome speed we witnessed and the clone tool to complete the realism...thus making it more realistic appearing and dynamic, have I violated RP rules?
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:12 AM   #90
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I really wish I had thought of the black card trick when I took this shot:

Image © Jim Thias
PhotoID: 308612
Photograph © Jim Thias


I'm kicking myself for not getting those signals lit. Of course, they came on as soon as the head-end passed. Had I used a black card, I could have put it in front of the lens and as soon as the train passed, dropped it for a few seconds to capture the lit signals before finally closing the shutter.

Ha...cool, I think you answered my question. I was trying to think of a good reason for in camera multi-exposures. I am assuming because doing a separate exposure and combining it later is considered by you to be against RP's rules? Or is it something else.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:29 AM   #91
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Now unless someone has something new I think this has run it's course and as I have said several times we can agree to disagree. Some folks are bent on making this out to an argument or debate, ...well I can't change their view but it is just a discussion to me and far from any kind of argument.
Run its course, probably so. I do find that some of your most recent statements are silly/obtuse - at times it can be a fine line between those otherwise disparate concepts - which is always striking and in a weird way, interesting. And the boundary between debate and discussion is always quite fuzzy, if there is any meaningful difference at all when people disagree. But perhaps time to let it go.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:20 PM   #92
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I was just extrapolating out that determining to what level cloning is acceptable which is similar to our discussion here and where is the line drawn and or how it is drawn.

For instance is it okay with RP to make an image more realistic using PS tools such as the clone tool and blur filters?

For example let's say we go to Japan...you pay my way of course and we have separate rooms, and we shoot the high speed bullet train. Now I shoot the train using a high shutter speed which eliminates all motion blur. Now I get back home and realize what a dufus I was, I really should have used a slower shutter speed to impart the great speed of our bullet train. If I were to then edit/manipulate my static image by selecting the train duping it and use the motion blur filter to simulate the awesome speed we witnessed and the clone tool to complete the realism...thus making it more realistic appearing and dynamic, have I violated RP rules?
Yes, because it can be done easily in camera.

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:23 PM   #93
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Ha...cool, I think you answered my question. I was trying to think of a good reason for in camera multi-exposures. I am assuming because doing a separate exposure and combining it later is considered by you to be against RP's rules? Or is it something else.
Sometimes it is nice to say, I did it all in camera.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:24 PM   #94
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I believe I understand your position(s), here is a quick summary: “if it is in the archives then it must be acceptable” and or if it is "realistic". Same for Chase, he concludes by seeing what is in the archives as the golden rule to what is acceptable, 'if others are doing it then so can I'! I would call this self-evident and totally verifiable in that HDR images are in the archives, as I have been stating/agreeing all along...nothing new here keep moving!

Does this sum it up basically? If so, I have no problem/issue seeing your reasoning and your conclusions. The only difference I have is that we also have RP's site rules that are clear 'to me' on digital manipulations. The word and deed are in direct conflict with each other to me, this is the problem. The problem is not that HDR/Composites/High Noon/Unlevel and any other images can be accepted.

From day one several years ago when I first reviewed the site rules that was the conclusion (that HDR is not allowed due to manipulation) that I and several other seasoned members determined, much as I didn't want it to. (If I remember correctly even you were on this side of the fence, stating that you were "hoping" RP would see fit to allow them alluding to manipulation rule barrier) I accepted the rules but vowed to check in from time to time knowing that HDR was here to stay and would be a force on RP as well. I knew that RP would eventually concede (knowingly or not) to the HDR/TM...I just assumed they would also update their rules to conform/legitimize to the deed. Not one letter has been changed with respect to the rules. The only thing that has changed is the increased HDR submissions/acceptance which now somehow should be retroactive/redefining/reversing or automatically rewriting the standing rule regarding manipulations.




I like rules. Do not brush them aside so easily, we live by them.

Interesting...show me where breaking the speed limit has caused the law (speed limit) to be changed other than perhaps slower which is in this analogy would be taking away PP allowances? Go ahead and drive 90mph on any interstate and see how quick they update the signs!

Here is another saying that comes to mind, "Ignorance of the law excuses no one". This seems very apropos here.



At what time did HDR become existing practice versus new practice here on RP? This seems kind of self fulfilling?



As much as I respect your thoughts do they really exceed the authority presented here on RP when you are playing in their court? Maybe you are the admin incognito...in which fact I humbly await your decree!

Wow...now you are lowering yourself to personal name calling! I have been called a lot of things but a "lawyer"....cruel!

Now unless someone has something new I think this has run it's course and as I have said several times we can agree to disagree. Some folks are bent on making this out to an argument or debate, ...well I can't change their view but it is just a discussion to me and far from any kind of argument.

btw...here is a link to a Plenoptic camera that is being tested for HDR I think you might find interesting:
http://www.tgeorgiev.net/HDR_Plenoptic/HDR.pdf
They are not rules, they are guidelines.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:39 PM   #95
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Yes, because it can be done easily in camera.
I see, interesting. So conversely, if it can't be done easily in camera then it would be acceptable?
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:58 PM   #96
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They are not rules, they are guidelines.
Well on this point I do not see any difference, I think the line between them is fuzzy or being imperceptible here on RP.

Here are some definitions from the Dictionary:

Rule
- a prescribed guide for conduct or action

Guideline:
- an indication or outline of policy or conduct

Guideline Synonyms:
clue, code, ground rule, guidance, guide, instruction, key, mark, marker, precept, protocol, rule, signal, standard procedure
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:50 AM   #97
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I do know that the speed limit is not a guideline. That explains the ticket. Here is the list of what is acceptable.

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Old 01-01-2010, 03:05 AM   #98
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I do know that the speed limit is not a guideline. That explains the ticket. Here is the list of what is acceptable.
Sorry about your ticket!

Of course you know that "speed limits" are from the federal and local governments and not this site thankfully. As I mentioned, RP is fuzzy on what is and what is not...they do one thing and say another.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:07 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Serrator View Post
As I mentioned, RP is fuzzy on what is and what is not...they do one thing and say another.
So ignore what they said years ago and have not since updated, follow the general patterns of what they do today, accept that there are irregularities and inconsistencies, as in all of human endeavor, accept that the patterns have changed over time and will continue to do so, accept that there is variation in what is accepted from screener to screener and from day to day, accept that participants on this forum have a pretty decent sense of what might and might not be accepted, and

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chill on your obsession with the written guidelines! And chill on your obsession with hard and fast rules! Geesh!
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Old 03-06-2010, 02:15 AM   #100
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Regarding HDR, you know what's ticking me off? These psuedo-HDR shots getting into the database. I'm sorry but taking one photo and adjusting the levels then blending them together is not HDR! Unless you truly shoot over and underexposed multiple shots, it's not HDR it's just level manipulation.

My rant, done!
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