Old 01-02-2011, 02:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
I love how anytime I post something I can always expect a negative comment from you - how about we end that in 2011?

Posting on Obscar was done on an impulse yet was simply a way for me to gauge reaction of this image from a unique audience, a small group of photographers that consider themselves aficionados of the non-standard wedge so often seen on RP.

I'm sorry you don't like the shot, Chris. I imagine if Pete elected to post on RP and his name were attached, perhaps you would think differently.

I will admit I am rather puzzled as to how a screener can come upon a photo such as a backlit action steam at night shot and simply not recognize it as any more unique or creative then the dozen or so diesel roster shots prior. I encouraged admin in the past, as have others, to consider being more flexible with the SC (what if one screener doesn't like glint, or urban scenes, or steam). However, an SC is what it is - it's a favorite of one particular person who happens to be screening at the time. In lieu of that as an effective way to promote images that stand apart from the norm I once again suggest to admin, in a win win situation, to promote such images via an alternate method such as the EC or similar where such photos can be more easily found by visitors erroneously searching "most popular" and finding instead accidents, Darwin awards and women.

My name has absolutely nothing to do with it. Twenty six favorited should confirm that the picture being discussed is somewhat more unique then the norm. The PC was a nice secondary method to keep an image from being buried after 24 hours but in lieu of all the linking it would seem that has become more a contest of who has the most friends on Facebook or followers outside of RP.

To those who appreciate my contributions, I sincerely appreciate it and have found no better "badge" to have attached to my images then your name either as a favorite or much welcomed comment. Thank you!

/Mitch

This post has been spell checked.
Well done Mitch. I'm a big supporter of your work. It's a shame that some great photographers here are just that, great photographers. But the minute they open their mouths it's a bit hard to follow said photographers work. And I like Chris and you both, so I'm not saying his work per say. Maybe you 2 should hug? Lol

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:17 AM   #27
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What this board really needs is a session with Dr. Phil!
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:22 AM   #28
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Joe,

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:37 AM   #29
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:44 AM   #30
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When one forum starts talking about another forum that is presently talking about the other forum... do matter and anti-matter mix, creating the next big bang and destroying all life as we know it?
Whatever you do, dont cross the streams!!!
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:08 AM   #31
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You... you said crossing the streams was bad.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:22 AM   #32
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Not necessarily. There's definitely a very slim chance we'll survive.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:22 AM   #33
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I love how anytime I post something I can always expect a negative comment from you - how about we end that in 2011?
Everyone has to have someone to keep them grounded. If I didn't offer negative comments about your shots, the praise that others heap upon you may cause your head to grow so big it would explode, and we can't have that happen.

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Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
Posting on Obscar was done on an impulse yet was simply a way for me to gauge reaction of this image from a unique audience, a small group of photographers that consider themselves aficionados of the non-standard wedge so often seen on RP.

I'm sorry you don't like the shot, Chris. I imagine if Pete elected to post on RP and his name were attached, perhaps you would think differently.
Not true. One of my biggest pet peeves for anyone (you, Pete, myself, etc.) is when someone shoots a bridge and doesn't include the piers and/or water below. At the second Hood bridge, that's easy enough to accomplish by taking a few steps to your right or lowering the camera a bit. Since the smoke plume is already cut off at the top of the frame, why not cut it off a little more and show us the rest of the bridge and the creek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
I will admit I am rather puzzled as to how a screener can come upon a photo such as a backlit action steam at night shot and simply not recognize it as any more unique or creative then the dozen or so diesel roster shots prior. I encouraged admin in the past, as have others, to consider being more flexible with the SC (what if one screener doesn't like glint, or urban scenes, or steam). However, an SC is what it is - it's a favorite of one particular person who happens to be screening at the time. In lieu of that as an effective way to promote images that stand apart from the norm I once again suggest to admin, in a win win situation, to promote such images via an alternate method such as the EC or similar where such photos can be more easily found by visitors erroneously searching "most popular" and finding instead accidents, Darwin awards and women.
This argument is always the biggest problem I have when you make similar posts about your shots. If I may quote you from the ObsCar discussion:
Quote:
I didn't expect an SC as it's just a steam engine at night backlit with a tiny little plume but I am actually surprised (a little) that as of 4 PM every shot posted after it has been more viewed including a BNSF train in Oakland, a Polish train from Bydgoszcz and an NS train in a yard in Chattanooga, TN.

Perhaps there is no place on RP for such images?
Okay, and now we'll look at the three images you mentioned (all three of which your shot has now passed in views, so mission accomplished):

Image © Steven M. Welch
PhotoID: 349934
Photograph © Steven M. Welch

Image © Szymon Walesa
PhotoID: 349935
Photograph © Szymon Walesa

Image © Steve Schmollinger
PhotoID: 349939
Photograph © Steve Schmollinger

To me, your message on ObsCar sure sounds to me like a woe-is-me whine about your shot not being clicked as many times as other shots, which is well-beneath a talented photographer as yourself. You have received numerous awards on RP (both from the screeners and the viewers themselves), have had numerous photos published in all the major railroad magazines and are one of the most recognizable names that posts to RP. Why do you still have to go around and gather sympathy that one of your shots (that you even admit isn't the best) isn't being viewed as many times as you would like? At the same time, why is it necessary to call out certain photographers and crap all over their work, saying that they don't deserve as many views as they got?

As for the last line I quoted ("Perhaps there is no place on RP for such images?"), that's probably the most ridiculous overreaction ever. You have been around long enough that you should know diesel shots are always more popular than steam shots. Most viewers to RP are more interested in diesel than steam, regardless of the difficulty and quality of the shot, since diesels are what they have known and grown up with all their life.

Imagine a day of RP submissions as a typical railfan magazine. You have section of news shots of the newest locomotives and/or newest lines (probably all using diesels), a feature article on a new type of industry (with photos of the facility being served by modern diesels), an in-depth feature on a Class I branch still using SD40-2s (more diesel photos) and a spread of photos of passenger trains in the 1940s (finally, some steam shots). The magazine has a breakdown of 80% diesel photos to 20% steam photos. Does that make the photos of steam better and more interesting than the photos of diesels. To most people, no, it doesn't, since everything is informative and interesting in its own unique way.

RP has approximately the same breakdown in its daily submissions (80% diesel to 20% steam), so why should the steam photos on RP be more viewed than the diesel photos?

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My name has absolutely nothing to do with it. Twenty six favorited should confirm that the picture being discussed is somewhat more unique then the norm. The PC was a nice secondary method to keep an image from being buried after 24 hours but in lieu of all the linking it would seem that has become more a contest of who has the most friends on Facebook or followers outside of RP.
And how many of those 26 favorites did you get after bringing the photo up in the forums and to followers outside of RP, like on ObsCar? Pot, meet kettle. All this discussion is moot anyway, since unfortunately you added the shot the last week of December when the PCA voting gets screwed up because of the year change and no one receives an award.

Also, you mentioned that you wanted a way for shots like this to not get lost in the monotony of diesel shots added. So, how come when I click the "Steam Shots" link on the homepage, this shot does not show up on the list? Why not click the checkbox for steam shots so someone who just searches for those type of shots (who would probably appreciate it more than a random RP viewer) can find it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
To those who appreciate my contributions, I sincerely appreciate it and have found no better "badge" to have attached to my images then your name either as a favorite or much welcomed comment. Thank you!
After all this discussion, I still think your morning shot of the Delaware River bridge in Morrisville is much more deserving of a PCA than the New Hope shot. So there.

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 350158
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

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Old 01-02-2011, 02:28 PM   #34
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Is it really Screener's Choice is you have to ask (read: beg) for it:
http://forums.railpictures.net/showp...95&postcount=5

Again...fail.
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Old 01-02-2011, 02:40 PM   #35
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That's pretty strong
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:51 PM   #36
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Like I said, impulse reaction to a slow start (both in screener reaction and initial views vrs news photos (NS slugs and Freightliners in Poland) for what I figured was a rather uniquely captured image. I wanted to hear from a more targeted audience such as Obscar which has been vocal about it's distaste for generic over the shoulder lighting wedgies that can be prevalent on RP. Incidentally, there are far better venues to garner "extra" views then the limited membership Obscar provides which was the only link outside of RP.

I still vouch for the return of the EC or similar as a win win for both contributors and the site to make more visible photos that display a standard above the norm in either technical difficulty, extra effort necessary if the final result is successfully captured or rarity, again assuming the results are of merit. Not necessary, but appealing especially in lieu of the fact that most popular on site now tends to be most linked on site.

If you want to keep me grounded, put your money where your mouth is and start posting. It's much more effective.

And you left out an Obscar quote of mine:
"I like RP and overall I would say they do an excellent job given the task at
hand but I find it a shame that the most popular images more times then not are not the 'best on the Net. If you are willing to look for them, however, a good stash of such images can be found there."
I've been an adamant supporter of RP on Obscar for years.

/Mitch

Appendment: Chris's response above was a response directed to the readers of an old RP thread and in no way solely attributed towards me. I have not done any of the
things listed other then once suggest to Chris that in lieu of an additional "badge", perhaps the SC could be more based on "merit" (technical and creativity and /or rarities) rather then individual screener
bias. Alas, it is what it is - one person's noted favorite.

fin.

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Old 01-02-2011, 09:26 PM   #37
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I still vouch for the return of the EC or similar as a win win for both contributors and the site to make more visible photos that display a standard above the norm in either technical difficulty, extra effort necessary if the final result is successfully captured or rarity, again assuming the results are of merit. Not necessary, but appealing especially in lieu of the fact that most popular on site now tends to be most linked on site.
Now, if you were in a screener's shoes, how do you determine how a photo displays "a standard above the norm" over a regular submission? Are you arguing that your New Hope shot should be rewarded because you had access to expensive night lighting equipment? Should someone who does not have or cannot afford lighting equipment be punished since their naturally-lit night shots are not as technically difficult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
If you want to keep me grounded, put your money where your mouth is and start posting. It's much more effective.
I don't post much because 1.) other photo projects have taken away my free time for posting, and 2.) I'm not satisfied with the current state of the site. If I'm not happy with a product or system, why should I be forced to continue contributing to that product or service? Other posters continue contributing to the forums without posting shots because they are satisfied with the site, why do you harp on me for not posting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
And you left out an Obscar quote of mine:
"I like RP and overall I would say they do an excellent job given the task at
hand but I find it a shame that the most popular images more times then not are not the 'best on the Net. If you are willing to look for them, however, a good stash of such images can be found there."
I've been an adamant supporter of RP on Obscar for years.
I left out that quote because I don't have a problem and agree with it. But again, what can you do? It's just like the rubber-necking of an accident on the highway; people love carnage and mayhem (and in the case of the horny, lonely men on RP, anything that vaguely resembles the female form).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
Appendment: Chris [Kilroy]'s response above was a response directed to the readers of an old RP thread and in no way solely attributed towards me. I have not done any of the
things listed other then once suggest to Chris [Kilroy] that in lieu of an additional "badge", perhaps the SC could be more based on "merit" (technical and creativity and /or rarities) rather then individual screener
bias. Alas, it is what it is - one person's noted favorite.
Again, this seems to push the award toward considering someone's entire body of work, instead of the individual shot itself. An example:

Image © Mike Raia
PhotoID: 223621
Photograph © Mike Raia

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 224171
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Mike posted his shot the day after he took it, in the midst of an onslaught of 1225 charter shots by the attendees. Five days later, you posted a similar angle and within 2 days, had received 25 comments to Mike's 3. However, you were one of the comments on Mike's shot, saying:

Quote:
Posted by Mitch Goldman on February 19, 2008

Superb, easily, the cream of the crop to date. Looking forward to more!
Your shot received the PCA vote and an elusive EC award. However, using your criteria above, of rewarding a shot "based on 'merit' (technical and creativity and /or rarities)," Mike's shot should have received the EC and PCA since his was the first silhouette posted (fulfilling the technical and creative conditions) while your shot was similar to his (and not a "rarity" since one was already posted). In this case, having Mike's shot not receive the credit that was due for being creative and not an over-the-shoulder wedgie benefited you, since your shot was able to garner all the accolades.

And now, just so you don't accuse me of a bias against your shot, consider these two shots:

Image © John West
PhotoID: 224844
Photograph © John West

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 258800
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

The sky was only this color for one runby so both shots were taken at nearly the exact same time. However, John added his 10 days after the charter, while I waited 9 months to post mine. Since there were plenty of 1225 shots being posted in February, John got lost in the shuffle and only received 6 comments and no awards, while I was able to wrangle 13 comments and a PCA by posting later once everyone had forgotten about John's shot. Under your system, who should have received the recognition, John's since he posted his first, or me since I had no competition at the time from other 1225 shots?

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Old 01-02-2011, 09:39 PM   #38
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After all this discussion, I still think your morning shot of the Delaware River bridge in Morrisville is much more deserving of a PCA than the New Hope shot. So there.

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 350158
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

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Where the heck is that reflection/glint coming from? Is there a huge glass building over to the left?
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:50 PM   #39
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i dont understand the screeners

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Old 01-02-2011, 09:56 PM   #40
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Where the heck is that reflection/glint coming from? Is there a huge glass building over to the left?
I thought the same thing.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:27 PM   #41
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Where the heck is that reflection/glint coming from? Is there a huge glass building over to the left?
Very interesting. At first glance, it indicates the rest of the train is in shadow, with only one small open area displaying the glint, however there has to be a reflective source of some kind on the left, as the cloud shadows indicate the sun was on the right.

Also, I notice a building in the background (toward the left) that is glinted on the right side as well. Not sure what light source he had to result in such an effect..

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Old 01-02-2011, 10:33 PM   #42
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Sodium light?

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Old 01-02-2011, 10:35 PM   #43
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What about the river? I see yellowish orange glare on the river. If the sun hit the river to the left, out of view, might it not reflect back?
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:58 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Image © Mike Raia
PhotoID: 223621
Photograph © Mike Raia

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 224171
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Image © John West
PhotoID: 224844
Photograph © John West

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 258800
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk

The sky was only this color for one runby so both shots were taken at nearly the exact same time. However, John added his 10 days after the charter, while I waited 9 months to post mine. Since there were plenty of 1225 shots being posted in February, John got lost in the shuffle and only received 6 comments and no awards, while I was able to wrangle 13 comments and a PCA by posting later once everyone had forgotten about John's shot. Under your system, who should have received the recognition, John's since he posted his first, or me since I had no competition at the time from other 1225 shots?

- Chris
Hell who knows what will get looked at, All 4 shots are great and some getting avalanche of views others less. I am with Chris some just get lost.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:25 PM   #45
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There was one issue that Chris brought up earlier that I do believe prevented Mitch's night shot from receiving quite the number of views it might have. I also noticed early on that the shot was not included in the steam catalog. I've missed that checkbox myself a time or two and I personally believe it did make a difference. Although it may be a minority, there certainly is segment of the RP audience that prefers steam shots and when pressed for time, we often just select the latest steam stuff from the link on the home page. I don't do that as much as I used to, but there are folks who do. Fail to check that Steam Engine box on the upload form and it's quite possible there will be some penalty in views.

Just an observation.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:30 PM   #46
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Image © Mike Raia
PhotoID: 223621
Photograph © Mike Raia

Image © Mitch Goldman
PhotoID: 224171
Photograph © Mitch Goldman

Image © John West
PhotoID: 224844
Photograph © John West

Image © Christopher Blaszczyk
PhotoID: 258800
Photograph © Christopher Blaszczyk
It's amazing how similar, yet so different a photo can be...
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:01 AM   #47
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The never ending thread continues -
But now we seem to have finally entered a level of constructive debate vrs the earlier inuendo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Now, if you were in a screener's shoes, how do you determine how a photo displays "a standard above the norm" over a regular submission?
There will never be a perfect solution but many have agreed with my notion that a greater percentage of unique shots would benefit both the site and it's patrons if more such images were made more visible. With over a thousand images per week being submitted, it seems a shame to only recognize four or five (keeping in mind most POTW's and SC's are PC's as well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Are you arguing that your New Hope shot should be rewarded because you had access to expensive night lighting equipment? Should someone who does not have or cannot afford lighting equipment be punished since their naturally-lit night shots are not as technically difficult?
No. Not at all. Plain and simple - a good shot is a good shot. No special equipment was necessary for a pace, a pan, a glint shot, a rainbow, a moon shot, or a vista from a mountain top. A good shot is a good shot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
I don't post much because ...I'm not satisfied with the current state of the site. If I'm not happy with a product or system, why should I be forced to continue contributing to that product or service?
In the fact that RP is a public web site with a base of constituents that voluntarily submits images, it would seem it would be in the best interests of the site's owner to keep it's patrons pleased where and when practical. Yes, it's there site and they can do what they want but a base of content patrons will lead to greater success of the site. In the end, it's their decision on how the site reacts to the desires of it's patrons as a whole. Consequently, you can simply keep mum, or you can try to effect change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Other posters continue contributing to the forums without posting shots because they are satisfied with the site, why do you harp on me for not posting?
I am simply posting a response to your comment regarding being kept in check. I know of no better effective way then doing so other then sharing our work. And to be honest - I think you take great photos, at least based on the thumbs I've seen in your camera and the work that eventually makes it on to RP. Considering you shoot similar subjects at similar locations, that's what helps keep "us" in check.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
I left out that quote because I don't have a problem and agree with it. But again, what can you do?
See above - bring up a topic you have issue with and see if the patrons of RP have similar issues. The more people who identify with an issue, the more obligated the site is to at the least consider the issue. At one time RP did not have a watermark - now it does...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
Again, this seems to push the award toward considering someone's entire body of work, instead of the individual shot itself.
Again, a good shot is a good shot on it's own merit, not the name attached to it or the date it was submitted. Incidentally, it's not an SC that is of any concern - I liked it earlier on when it was simply a pretty little badge attached to the image before it made rotating front page. It's the incresed visibility of a unique photo that I think would benefit the site, the poster and it's viewing audience - especially those who do not frequent the site often.

/Mitch
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:15 AM   #48
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Where the heck is that reflection/glint coming from? Is there a huge glass building over to the left?
Bingo.

Image © Darryl Rule
PhotoID: 335311
Photograph © Darryl Rule


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Old 01-03-2011, 01:18 AM   #49
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I am with Chris some just get lost.
Sounds more like your with me...

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Old 01-03-2011, 01:32 AM   #50
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I bet the engineers love that in their face when the sun is at the right angle
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