Old 05-26-2008, 05:02 PM   #1
Joe the Photog
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Default RP folk in Trains

Saw three names I recognized from RP in the latest Trains -- Mitch "the Pan Master" Goldman, Clint Renegar and Scott Ridenhour. I don't think Scott comes to these forums and he doesn't seem to upload shots much anymore, but he's there in the G&O article with a Yadkin Valley shot and a Laurinburg & Southern shot. Clint is a young man, either still in high school or just out, if I'm not mistaken.

Nice seeing names of people I recognize. Congratulations!

There are probably other RP contributors in there this month whose names I didn't recognize. But the thing that struck me is how many names I didn't recognize. There are a lot of folks apparently who contribute there and not here. And get paid for it.


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Old 05-26-2008, 05:15 PM   #2
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But the thing that struck me is how many names I didn't recognize. There are a lot of folks apparently who contribute there and not here. And get paid for it.
Yes, there are lots and lots of good photographers who either rarely post to RP or never at all. RP is big but not all encompassing.
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Old 05-26-2008, 06:37 PM   #3
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I believe many pro photogs get fed up with the 'Bad Motive' rejections
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:47 PM   #4
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Yes, there are lots and lots of good photographers who either rarely post to RP or never at all. RP is big but not all encompassing.
That was the point I was trying to make, something I need to remind myself of too. I still try to to figure out why I can get mad when RP doesn't bow down at the glory of my latest abandoned right of way shot or CSX AC4400CW-led coal train through Columbia shot.* But it doesn't faze me to keep sending shots into Trains which are never used, not "rejected" or "accepted" and that doesn't bother me much at all.


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* read with dripping sarcasm
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by trainboysd40
I believe many pro photogs get fed up with the 'Bad Motive' rejections
I think it has more to do with the fact that in TRAINS or any other reputable magazine, you get paid. Why submit your shot to RP and have to deal with people possibly stealing it, when you can submit it to a magazine, book or whatever and get paid for your work?
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:05 PM   #6
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I think it has more to do with the fact that in TRAINS or any other reputable magazine, you get paid. Why submit your shot to RP and have to deal with people possibly stealing it, when you can submit it to a magazine, book or whatever and get paid for your work?
If you only shoot trains to get paid for your shots, then you're not a true railfan.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Carl Becker
If you only shoot trains to get paid for your shots, then you're not a true railfan.
What is wrong with you?

I never said anything about what the motivation to press the shutter release button is. I was only talking about what a photographer chooses to do with his/her photos after that button has been pressed.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Carl Becker
If you only shoot trains to get paid for your shots, then you're not a true railfan.
I'm guessing you're being a little toungue in cheek here. But if you don't want to get paid for your railroad shots, just send your pictures to Railroad and Railfan.




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Old 05-26-2008, 09:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
I think it has more to do with the fact that in TRAINS or any other reputable magazine, you get paid. Why submit your shot to RP and have to deal with people possibly stealing it, when you can submit it to a magazine, book or whatever and get paid for your work?
As I mentioned before, there are different ways that one can get 'paid' when it comes to this hobby. My shots online were noticed by BNSF and that has led to me getting some BNSF simulator time (see the front page of the May '08 BNSF Northern Light newsletter) and an open invite for cab rides whenever I fancy. None of that would have happened if it were not for my online contributions. Sometimes there are things more valuable than cash...
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Old 05-26-2008, 11:34 PM   #10
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As I mentioned before, there are different ways that one can get 'paid' when it comes to this hobby. My shots online were noticed by BNSF and that has led to me getting some BNSF simulator time (see the front page of the May '08 BNSF Northern Light newsletter) and an open invite for cab rides whenever I fancy. None of that would have happened if it were not for my online contributions. Sometimes there are things more valuable than cash...
Justify however you want, but you're still giving away all of your work for free.

I'll always take the money because that means I can justify getting new equipment and going on more trips.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:22 AM   #11
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Justify however you want, but you're still giving away all of your work for free.

I'll always take the money because that means I can justify getting new equipment and going on more trips.
How's that free? How many railfans do you know who have gotten a 4 hour sim session with a Class I railroad? And was featured in their company newsletter? Any idea how much sim time costs? It ain't cheap. And all of this was for a railfan. And for me (and I'm guessing most others), I value that experience over cash anyday.

Besides, BNSF was given non-exclusinve rights for a one-time use of my photos. I'd say I walked away with something much more valuable.

And if you're concerned about what I do with my photos, Mike, you'll be happy to know I'll be increasing my bank account by selling some of my photos to an Ethanol company...photos which were (*gasp*) already published here for free. Oh no!!!!!!
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:34 AM   #12
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How's that free? How many railfans do you know who have gotten a 4 hour sim session with a Class I railroad? And was featured in their company newsletter? Any idea how much sim time costs? It ain't cheap. And all of this was for a railfan. And for me (and I'm guessing most others), I value that experience over cash anyday.

Besides, BNSF was given non-exclusinve rights for a one-time use of my photos. I'd say I walked away with something much more valuable.

And if you're concerned about what I do with my photos, Mike, you'll be happy to know I'll be increasing my bank account by selling some of my photos to an Ethanol company...photos which were (*gasp*) already published here for free. Oh no!!!!!!
Right...just like how you have a published book.

It should be common sense that after the public has already seen something, much of the appeal is gone. The only real exception is when you're selling the photos to a company that isn't railfan oriented. I just sold a few photos to a firm who is doing a feasibility study for the MN Dept. or Agriculture. The photos were already on the internet but it didn't matter since the photos were sold to be a visual component to the study and not eye candy for railfans. When a photo that has already been seen is put in a railfan magazine, calender, or whatever, it's much less appealing if I've already seen it. I want to see a steady stream of unseen photos, not the same photos again and again. When I see someone re-use photos in an article I think it knocks the quality/level of appeal of it down a bit.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
It should be common sense that after the public has already seen something, much of the appeal is gone. I want to see a steady stream of unseen photos, not the same photos again and again. When I see someone re-use photos in an article I think it knocks the quality/level of appeal of it down a bit.

Adams and Link must be rolling over in their graves right now!
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:44 AM   #14
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Right...just like how you have a published book.
Split hairs all you want over the 'published' moniker...that fake book I made put cash in my pockets. Also, that fake book you love to belittle so much was the subject of a local newspaper report, so fake or not, there was an article actually published about it (which increased sales and painted the hobby in a good light).

Mike, do you want me to take the brush out of your hands so you stop painting yourself as a moron, or do you want to continue to tell me and other folks how wrong we are about everything we do related to this hobby?
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Old 05-27-2008, 06:03 AM   #15
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To be honest, these days, I think I get much more recognition from RP then anything I may have had published in Trains, Railfan or RI. The nice thing about RP is that it's a hell of a lot easier to pull that photo up again after a month goes by.

On the otherhand, there are quite a few people that do not live on RP - the site didn't catch my attention for sometime until recently, at which point it's become practically a 'religion'.

I'd be curious to see what you have had published, MikeB, but then again, maybe not - from what I've seen, most images purchased these days are typically to illustrate a point - it's either news or it's an image used as a background to promote an item of lesser interest.

I'd say there is room for images in both realms, for now, though seeing the same image in two magazines is not kosher if done intentionally.

/Mitch
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Old 05-27-2008, 06:32 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ween
Split hairs all you want over the 'published' moniker...that fake book I made put cash in my pockets. Also, that fake book you love to belittle so much was the subject of a local newspaper report, so fake or not, there was an article actually published about it (which increased sales and painted the hobby in a good light).

Mike, do you want me to take the brush out of your hands so you stop painting yourself as a moron, or do you want to continue to tell me and other folks how wrong we are about everything we do related to this hobby?

Atleast its not on GFR anymore.
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Old 05-28-2008, 03:25 AM   #17
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Adams and Link must be rolling over in their graves right now!
Right....because what they did is comparable to what most of us are doing today.
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Old 05-28-2008, 03:45 AM   #18
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Split hairs all you want over the 'published' moniker...that fake book I made put cash in my pockets. Also, that fake book you love to belittle so much was the subject of a local newspaper report, so fake or not, there was an article actually published about it (which increased sales and painted the hobby in a good light).
Must not be much going on up there in the country. But if you want to start comparing apples to apples, I also had a few newspapers (it was shared between several newspapers in the Minneapolis metro area) in my area do an article on me and my railroad photography after the editor was impressed with me when we worked together.

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Mike, do you want me to take the brush out of your hands so you stop painting yourself as a moron, or do you want to continue to tell me and other folks how wrong we are about everything we do related to this hobby?
Uh oh, you broke the golden rule of the RP forums; name calling. If I had called you a moron, you and Jim Thias and the rest of the crew would be all over me for it. You can't deny that.

I'm trying to get as close to perfection as possible (even though it's impossible) so anything that compromises my photos quality and appeal is 'wrong' in my mind.

Maybe we're just out there shooting with different goals in mind. I'm trying to get that one perfect photo and if I don't better shots every time I go out, I'm not happy. It does create a lot of disappointment, but it's worth it when everything comes together and I get that absolutely great shot and it will be an amazing feeling if I ever do get that perfect shot. I doubt I ever will get that shot, but I need something to hope for, otherwise I have nothing to motivate me.
I can't speak for your motivations (even though you so often speak for mine), but it appears that you're happy with getting the same caliber of photos repeatedly and one or two flaws is OK with you. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I kind of wish I could feel that way as it would make things easier, but I'm very hard on myself and I know what I want. Besides, the day that I become content with my railroad photography is the day that I put the camera in the box. After that, what's the point? Mission accomplished.
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Old 05-28-2008, 03:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
When a photo that has already been seen is put in a railfan magazine, calender, or whatever, it's much less appealing if I've already seen it. I want to see a steady stream of unseen photos, not the same photos again and again. When I see someone re-use photos in an article I think it knocks the quality/level of appeal of it down a bit.

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Right....because what they did is comparable to what most of us are doing today
That's so rich! Mike, you are so predictable. I posted that KNOWING you'd reply with that exact answer.

So, let's get on with this discussion then.

First of all, please explain the difference between yesterday's artists and today's artists, in terms of appeal when viewing the same photographs and pictures over and over.

Secondly, if you're going to put a degree of appeal on today's art based on the frequency of publication, whether it be in books, on the internet or sold in prints, then it should also apply to yesterday's art as well. I mean, really, how many f'ing times can you look at the Mona Lisa and still find the same appeal? Or Starry Night? Or Moon Over Half Dome? Or Squares with Concentric Circles?

At what year in the history of art did pictures start becoming less appealing because they were being re-used too much?

Do Link's and Adams' photos lose any appeal to you even though they've been reproduced countless times in books, magazines, posters, calendars and on the internet? And if not, at what level does a photographer have to reach before mulitple publications of his/her photos, whether they be in a magazine, on a calendar, on the internet, in a book or on a poster, stop falling into the category of "loss of appeal" to you?
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:04 AM   #20
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That's so rich! Mike, you are so predictable. I posted that KNOWING you'd reply with that exact answer.

So, let's get on with this discussion then.

.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:10 AM   #21
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Uh oh, you broke the golden rule of the RP forums; name calling. If I had called you a moron, you and Jim Thias and the rest of the crew would be all over me for it. You can't deny that.
Well ask yourself this...why did no one say a word about me using the word 'moron' yet it would be the reverse if you had? That should speak volumes if you're listening...
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JimThias
That's so rich! Mike, you are so predictable. I posted that KNOWING you'd reply with that exact answer.

So, let's get on with this discussion then.

First of all, please explain the difference between yesterday's artists and today's artists, in terms of appeal when viewing the same photographs and pictures over and over.
The main difference between yesterdays photographers and todays is that railroading was completely mechanical, which is of course very photogenic. Todays railroading is largely electronic (we now have a shiny silver box instead of a tower with an operating inside). The photos from 'yesterday' also have huge historical value, where as todays stuff obviously does not. I don't think any generation of railroading will age as well as the steam era did.

When you view todays photos over and over, it's not exciting since it leaves nothing to the imagination whereas Link's work does. The vast majority of the material in Link's photos is now gone but with current photos and for the most part go back and see everything in person. Not that exciting to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Secondly, if you're going to put a degree of appeal on today's art based on the frequency of publication, whether it be in books, on the internet or sold in prints, then it should also apply to yesterday's art as well. I mean, really, how many f'ing times can you look at the Mona Lisa and still find the same appeal? Or Starry Night? Or Moon Over Half Dome? Or Squares with Concentric Circles?
Come on Jim, it's not that hard of a thing to grasp. The more you see something, the less exciting it is. Lets say you watch a movie 20 times, is that 20th time going to be as exciting as the 1st, I really doubt it.

When you view a photo for the first time, you get that 'wow factor' which is hard to get the second time.

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Originally Posted by JimThias
At what year in the history of art did pictures start becoming less appealing because they were being re-used too much?
For me, it's anytime before my time. If the photo is from a time before I can recall myself, it's value is increased significantly compared to a photo of a time that I can recall. I can't speak for everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Do Link's and Adams' photos lose any appeal to you even though they've been reproduced countless times in books, magazines, posters, calendars and on the internet? And if not, at what level does a photographer have to reach before mulitple publications of his/her photos, whether they be in a magazine, on a calendar, on the internet, in a book or on a poster, stop falling into the category of "loss of appeal" to you?
Yes, just like with anything else the more you view it, the less impressive it is. Depending on the photograph, the degree of 'loss of appeal' varies, but nevertheless it's there still.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:15 AM   #23
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Well ask yourself this...why did no one say a word about me using the word 'moron' yet it would be the reverse if you had? That should speak volumes if you're listening...
Because I'm probably viewed as the 'negative guy' and you're viewed as one of the nice guys and more people are on your side than mine.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:21 AM   #24
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I can't speak for everyone else.
That's all you ever needed to say. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Because I'm probably viewed as the 'negative guy' ...
Whoa. Why would you think you're viewed as the "negative guy?" What negative things have you said that would invoke such a negative perspective of yourself?

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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Must not be much going on up there in the country. But if you want to start comparing apples to apples, I also had a few newspapers (it was shared between several newspapers in the Minneapolis metro area) in my area do an article on me and my railroad photography after the editor was impressed with me when we worked together.
Well that sounds interesting. If you're going to brag about it, at LEAST post a link to the articles so we can see what they had to say about you and your high standards of railroad photography.

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