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-   -   Composition Rejection--Unsure of Correction (http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17807)

GoDogGo 10-19-2016 06:34 PM

Composition Rejection--Unsure of Correction
 
New to posting, though I've been reading the forum discussions for awhile.

I submitted the photo below in one version, and it was rejected for composition; I corrected it for composition, or at least I thought I had, but it was rejected for same thing. Any insight into what I should do to correct the problem would be greatly appreciated.

First submission: http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...94&key=2861524

Second submission: http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...10&key=9489225

Grewup on the CW 10-19-2016 06:40 PM

My guess (as I'm fairly new myself) would be to try cropping some off the top of your second submission.
Some of the veterans on here might count that as "dead space"

RobJor 10-19-2016 07:10 PM

Yes, seemingly you cropped off the right but not the top? Besides that it seems to me the whole image tone/color etc changed???

Bob

GoDogGo 10-19-2016 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobJor (Post 189599)
Yes, seemingly you cropped off the right but not the top? Besides that it seems to me the whole image tone/color etc changed???

Bob

1. Yes; my goal, perhaps misguided, was to keep the train on the lower third.
2. Yes; I went to the original RAW file for the second. But that wasn't the reject reason on either version. At least not for this round.

Mberry 10-19-2016 08:31 PM

Keeping the train in the lower third is the right way to go, however I think there's too much sky as is.

JRMDC 10-19-2016 08:54 PM

The rule of thirds is a matter of judgment. In this case, if you follow it strictly, you get an imbalance because of the difference in compositional "weight" top vs bottom. "Empty space" is one aspect of this but the concept is a bit more general. The key is visual balance and interest. Rule of thirds, first and foremost, tells us to get things off center because that is generally more visually interesting. I think that is simply because of how the human mind functions, but I digress. Also, note that symmetry is an important exception - if you are going for some aspect of symmetry, then a centering (horizontal and/or vertical) is appropriate.

Here, the top of the image is just dull, so have less of it.

GoDogGo 10-19-2016 11:36 PM

Thanks for the comments. I have been previously advised to apply the rule of thirds ruthlessly, but I also confess to liking the sky in my photos--too much, I think. So sometimes I'm not sure where the most appropriate cutoff is. I will take another go at this one. Thanks again.

John West 10-20-2016 12:44 AM

As has been discussed ad naseum in this forum, the stated rejection reason does not always tell the whole story. In addition to composition that others have offered suggestions for, in the second version the locomotive is too contrasty and needs to have the highlights toned down a bit. Your basic challenge is you have common power and not much else of interest to provide any identifiable context. While the screeners do allegedly love wedgies, this is a pretty plain vanilla wedgie and even if the lighting and composition were perfect it might have a tough time getting accepted. I'm saying all that negative stuff just to improve your chances of proving me wrong!

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John West (Post 189604)
As has been discussed ad naseum in this forum, the stated rejection reason does not always tell the whole story. In addition to composition that others have offered suggestions for, in the second version the locomotive is too contrasty and needs to have the highlights toned down a bit. Your basic challenge is you have common power and not much else of interest to provide any identifiable context. While the screeners do allegedly love wedgies, this is a pretty plain vanilla wedgie and even if the lighting and composition were perfect it might have a tough time getting accepted. I'm saying all that negative stuff just to improve your chances of proving me wrong!

Thanks for the pointer on the second photo; I'm certainly not yet ready to quit my day job to become a photo processor as I tend to Overprocess sometimes. That comment actually helps me. As for the remainder, I know, I know, but thought I'd try. 😀

wds 10-20-2016 02:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Crop something like this: Attachment 9278

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wds (Post 189607)
Crop something like this: Attachment 9278

Thanks for the suggestion! That helps because that's about where my thinking was headed based on the comments. Now to see if there's another reason lurking around.

wds 10-20-2016 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDogGo (Post 189609)
Thanks for the suggestion! ... Now to see if there's another reason lurking around.

Isn't there always? ;)

JimThias 10-20-2016 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDogGo (Post 189597)
New to posting, though I've been reading the forum discussions for awhile.

I submitted the photo below in one version, and it was rejected for composition; I corrected it for composition, or at least I thought I had, but it was rejected for same thing. Any insight into what I should do to correct the problem would be greatly appreciated.

First submission: http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...94&key=2861524

Second submission: http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...10&key=9489225

The second rejection is closer to where you should be as far as the space on the sides, but you've got too much sky. Process it again and crop at a 3:2 ratio (1200x800, for example). No reason that scene needs to be in the ratio you have it.

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 01:49 PM

Cascading Rejection Reasons
 
The good news: with everyone's helpful advice, I fixed the composition problem.

The bad news: now it's a hue problem, which I confess is a rejection that my limited mind finds difficult to understand so any explanation of that would also be appreciated, for future purposes if not for this one. Thanks again.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...10&key=7579710

JimThias 10-20-2016 03:21 PM

Sky needs to be a little bluer, and less aqua. Also looks to my eyes like it needs a little boost in contrast.

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 189618)
Sky needs to be a little bluer, and less aqua. Also looks to my eyes like it needs a little boost in contrast.

Thanks! Like I said, I'm never sure exactly what that rejection means because I haven't really developed the eye for distinguishing the hues, and I seem to either under contrast or over contrast. That helps a lot.

JimThias 10-20-2016 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDogGo (Post 189619)
Thanks! Like I said, I'm never sure exactly what that rejection means because I haven't really developed the eye for distinguishing the hues, and I seem to either under contrast or over contrast. That helps a lot.

I think the hue issue is due to the image being slightly overexposed. With a little tweaking you should be able to get it looking just right. The crop is much better now and I don't believe you'll run into any more issues with that. :-)

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 03:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 189621)
I think the hue issue is due to the image being slightly overexposed. With a little tweaking you should be able to get it looking just right. The crop is much better now and I don't believe you'll run into any more issues with that. :-)

Thanks--and understood; sorry to be a pest, but this is very helpful to me. Is the attached better in your view? I darkened highlights and increased midtone contrast in Photoshop Elements. Frankly, the look of the clouds bothers me.

John West 10-20-2016 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDogGo (Post 189623)
Thanks--and understood; sorry to be a pest, but this is very helpful to me. Is the attached better in your view? I darkened highlights and increased midtone contrast in Photoshop Elements. Frankly, the look of the clouds bothers me.

Basically I think that is as good as it is going to get, a perfectly good wedgie. Whether the screeners will think it "interesting" enough to accept is hard to say, it is a pretty basic wedgie. Just to nit pick a bit more, if it were my picture I would darken it just a tad, the highlights still look a bit bright to me, but that may just be my bias for more saturated colors...I'm an old Kodachrome guy.

GoDogGo 10-20-2016 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John West (Post 189624)
Basically I think that is as good as it is going to get, a perfectly good wedgie. Whether the screeners will think it "interesting" enough to accept is hard to say, it is a pretty basic wedgie. Just to nit pick a bit more, if it were my picture I would darken it just a tad, the highlights still look a bit bright to me, but that may just be my bias for more saturated colors...I'm an old Kodachrome guy.

Thanks, and I certainly understand the issues with the shot itself (and taking into account apparent acceptance inconsistencies). As for the darkening, I generally agree but RP seems to me to like pictures brighter so I have steered away from that; having said that, I've been tinkering with darkening it a bit more since I posted that photo above in response to Mr. Thias. Like I said above, though, this process has been helpful to me regardless of the photo's acceptance; I am happy to put it on Flickr.

Rene de Vries 10-20-2016 06:56 PM

Hi all,

I'll just add my picture to this discussion:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...96&key=8380724

I don't see the train being in the middle of the picture (or being too close to the edges).
And I'd hate to take something away from the background...

This - for me - is one of those "awkward composition doesn't make sense pictures"..

Cheers

René

Grewup on the CW 10-20-2016 07:40 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rene de Vries (Post 189626)
Hi all,

I'll just add my picture to this discussion:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...96&key=8380724

I don't see the train being in the middle of the picture (or being too close to the edges).
And I'd hate to take something away from the background...

This - for me - is one of those "awkward composition doesn't make sense pictures"..

Cheers

René

Here is my suggestion to your current pic. However I dont like my crop as it cuts the top of the cable supports off. If you snapped and another pic where the lead unit was closer to the right support post (apprx 10 feet closer to you) that would yield a better result. Just my opinion

John West 10-20-2016 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grewup on the CW (Post 189627)
If you snapped and another pic where the lead unit was closer to the right support post (apprx 10 feet closer to you) that would yield a better result.

That is the issue. The framing is constrained by the catenary supports and the engine is just a bit too far way.

That said, I'm a bit surprised the image was rejected, I have seen far worse accepted. On the other hand the loco also suffers from a rather unattractive paint scheme which combined with the uncomfortable composition makes it a rather uninteresting picture. What it has going for it is good lighting and a great background, looks like a great location to wait for the next train and hope the loco has a better livery.

John Russell - NZ 10-23-2016 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John West (Post 189628)
That is the issue. The framing is constrained by the catenary supports and the engine is just a bit too far way.

That said, I'm a bit surprised the image was rejected, I have seen far worse accepted. On the other hand the loco also suffers from a rather unattractive paint scheme which combined with the uncomfortable composition makes it a rather uninteresting picture. What it has going for it is good lighting and a great background, looks like a great location to wait for the next train and hope the loco has a better livery.

Rene, this is a great photo. If this photo was accepted it would have my vote and favorite. Yes it would have been probably better taken wider with the train closer as others have pointed out. Personal preference such as lead unit color scheme can tip the scales which is one reason to try again and hope you strike a different screener. Be careful doing that though as I have had a warning for doing it. Always try to make some change or enhancement before resubmitting and detail that in the note to screener field. Having said that I have got acceptance making no changes at all to resubmitted images numerous times. Unfortunately, photos of foreign trains will more likely suffer from screener bias according to member feedback I have had from around the world.

Rene de Vries 10-24-2016 01:16 PM

Hi John
Hi John,

I found another version where the engines were closer...

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/593342/

I think the thing is that first of all, non American trains probably don't appeal to the screeners that much. That is fair enough but - as John mentioned - it makes it harder for foreign train pictures to be accepted here.

Second - the screeners obviously don't like it when there is more than just a train in the picture. Every now and then I find myself cropping a picture (because it was rejected with "awkward composition") and removing part of the scenery - in the end what is left is a picture where the focus is almost solely on the train...

But if you know this, you can obviously crop in advance and hope that the screeners are happy..

Cheers

René


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