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-   -   What? (http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15703)

Norfolkwestern34 08-21-2012 03:47 PM

What?
 
First Picture:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...49&key=9300562

Second Picture:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...47&key=8290844

So the first one was bad cropping so they rejected it.... but why did they reject the second one if they werent even going to put the first one on?Anyone get what im saying? Any tips?

Norfolkwestern34 08-21-2012 03:49 PM

Oh and I would like to add that I have seen many worse pictures of the NKP unit on this website... and its a little weird that mine wont make it.

bigbassloyd 08-21-2012 04:03 PM

The first photo may be bottom heavy (i.e. the cropping) to the screener. However, the sky is completely blown out, which unless it's recoverable in RAW, it will be very doubtful that it's going to be an RP accepted photo no matter what you do to the cropping. The glint is probably not strong enough to overcome the sky.

The second photo is very similiar to this one already in the database:

[photoid=406825]

And yours is suffering from a very overexposed plume / sky (the plume and the sky become one mass of white)


Loyd L.

magicman_841 08-21-2012 04:04 PM

Well, it is a known fact that RP will soften its standards for unique events such as steam excursions.

I think the first one stands a chance. The glint is decent, and I like how the passenger cars stretch in the distance. I would try to make it a bit looser bit adding more to the right and bottom, if you can.

The second will get a cloudy or a dark rejection. The lighting is very poor, there is no shadow detail at all!

bigbassloyd 08-21-2012 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norfolkwestern34 (Post 158874)
Oh and I would like to add that I have seen many worse pictures of the NKP unit on this website... and its a little weird that mine wont make it.

'Worse' photos (which is completely subjective to each persons' viewpoint) do get through. In my opinion, these two didn't.

Loyd L.

Holloran Grade 08-21-2012 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicman_841 (Post 158877)
Well, it is a known fact that RP will soften its standards for unique events such as steam excursions.

Unless they have perhaps hundreds of better quality submissions.

The first one ain't going to fly because at the end of the day, the nose is in the shadow.

The second has no contrast and the sky is blown out - it is just not a good photo.

And finally, don't use the "theirs is in the DB, so why isn't mine" argument.

It doesn't work and it makes you sound like you are whining.;)

Norfolkwestern34 08-21-2012 05:28 PM

Okay, thanks for the help everyone. Looks like ill try better next time! LOL

Btw, not whining. Just making a statement.

JimThias 08-21-2012 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magicman_841 (Post 158877)
I think the first one stands a chance. The glint is decent, and I like how the passenger cars stretch in the distance. I would try to make it a bit looser bit adding more to the right and bottom, if you can.

I think you and I are in the minority on this one. With some different cropping and a tweaking to the processing, this one would really look great. I love the contrasting color cast from the sun on the black locomotive. It reminds me a little of my sepia version of 1225:

[photoid=189621]

JRMDC 08-21-2012 05:47 PM

I think the ground wedgie is fine as it is, but I can see RP not taking it.

Re El Roco, RP does sometimes take dark noses, but certainly not usually. I wish they would do so more often, and in this shot the dark nose does no harm whatsoever.

Norfolkwestern34 08-21-2012 05:56 PM

Thank you, if one of the two were to make it I thought'd it'd be the first one. I tried to capture the whole train and get the railfans and signals in the background. Ill try to redo the post processing on the first shot and see how it goes. Thanks again guys!

Holloran Grade 08-21-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 158890)
I think the ground wedgie is fine as it is, but I can see RP not taking it.

Re El Roco, RP does sometimes take dark noses, but certainly not usually. I wish they would do so more often, and in this shot the dark nose does no harm whatsoever.

A point of clarification -

I am not passing judgment on whether the shot is good or bad, merely whether it fits the format for RP.:roll:

KevinM 08-21-2012 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norfolkwestern34 (Post 158874)
Oh and I would like to add that I have seen many worse pictures of the NKP unit on this website... and its a little weird that mine wont make it.

LOL! Diesel-Electrics may be called "units", but steam engines are "locomotives", "engines", "steamers"....anything but "units". :D

With regard to the STP rejection, I would agree that you would need to do some work on the sky and the plume. The histogram on that shot likely has substantial clipping on the right side, which indicates overexposure. Anytime you shoot a dark subject with a bright sky behind it, the potential for this kind of situation is definitely there. In such cases, remember: Expose for the highlights, develop for the shadows. You can always work on the shadowed areas in Photoshop, but if you completely blow out the highlights, there is nothing in the sky or the steam plume to recover. Usually, when you take such a shot, it is a delicate balancing act. You want it bright enough so there is some recoverable shadow detail, but you don't want to overexpose the sky so badly that the detail there is lost.

Assuming that you shot this as a raw image, you might try the "Recovery" slider in ACR and see if you can get the highlights in your histogram back on the scale.

Even if you pull off the shot, if you happened to be with a dozen of your RP friends, you might still draw a "Similar to Previous" rejection. You'll either have to be the first to get home and upload the shot, or you'll need to hold on to it until the Screeners have forgotten the others. Unless you own a helicopter, or you process and upload from your car, the latter strategy is recommended.

Of course, sometimes the Screeners have short memories!! :lol:

[photoid=406679]
[photoid=406704]
[photoid=406765]

All uploaded within 24 hrs...

JRMDC 08-21-2012 07:17 PM

If the histogram viewer I am using is correct, the sky is not actually blown out, as the spike is noticeably to the left of the 255 point. Maybe a 250 or so. But I haven't opened the shot in processing software.

oltmannd 08-21-2012 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norfolkwestern34 (Post 158873)
First Picture:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...49&key=9300562

Second Picture:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...47&key=8290844

So the first one was bad cropping so they rejected it.... but why did they reject the second one if they werent even going to put the first one on?Anyone get what im saying? Any tips?

I really like that first one with the train strung out in the curve and the contrast between the train and the trees and the locomotive and the sky. I like the geometry and the proportion of it. About the only thing I would have preferred would be to have a bit less foreground and a bit more sky. (that probably puts me in a small minority) Might look even more dramatic if the whole thing was a notch less bright. I don't necessarily need to see the detail on the front end of the locomotive.

Norfolkwestern34 08-22-2012 01:43 AM

LOL, there was about 50 people on the bridge I was on probably all trying to upload to RP! I may try again in a few days. I cant really crop the foreground out of the image just because of the way I shot the picture. I cropped the bottom alittle already and I dont even think I cropped the top of the picture. Thank you Kevin for the tips! I appreciate it. Im still new to the hole photography thing so im still learning and doing my best with the equipment I have. Thanks guys im gonna combine all the tips and give it a go!

JRMDC 08-22-2012 02:22 AM

Your better bet may be to combine all the tips and give it a go ... in two weeks, when the other shot is forgotten! Seriously, similar shots work better with a delay.

Mgoldman 08-22-2012 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 158896)
Of course, sometimes the Screeners have short memories!! :lol:

Ya think?
(5 images apart)

[photoid=406842]

[photoid=406867]

Course, it would be a pipe dream to say they are "exactly" the same.
And let's leave it at that.

Considering how many duplicates simply get posted down the line - recall even admin joining in on a thread about two images and still accepting the second (and I think each got a PC) - I wonder why have such a rule. At least in this instance, one was B&W while the other - not the same angle - was color.

I have no problem with duplicate images - there's always something for someone to learn in comparing.

/Mitch

Mgoldman 08-22-2012 02:32 AM

PS - I like the first image quite a bit - relative to others in the database.

When I first clicked on it, I was thinking - "what's it doing all the way up there?".

Looking again, I see the choice was either a different location to shoot or inclusion of
the bland white sky. Seeing how choice one is no longer an option, I would hope an
appeal would work. It is what it is - white sky, extra foreground - or no pic at all.
Considering it's appeal is (IMHO) greater then many, it's worth a screener's consideration.
Unless - of course - he elects not to compare but simply accept the image on it's own
merits. In that case... you gotta wonder how so many other pics got accepted!

/Mitch

Norfolkwestern34 08-22-2012 08:08 PM

Thank you Mitch! I would just like to point this one picture out... very similar to my second shot.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...406893&nseq=27

Overexposed plume, blown out sky, and dark on the engine.

I guess the signals and curve add something to this shot. No disrespect to the photographer.

Mgoldman 08-22-2012 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norfolkwestern34 (Post 158979)
I would just like to point this one picture out... very similar to my second shot.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...406893&nseq=27

Overexposed plume, blown out sky, and dark on the engine.

I guess the signals and curve add something to this shot. No disrespect to the photographer.

Etiquette suggests you add - "In my opinion....". Or, "I understand the conditions were tough yet my own shot and Steven's share similar faults".

And - yes, you are certainly correct.

No offense to Steven, whom I ran into in Summerville, PA and was a pleasure to finally meet - that aside, I do find your photo more appealing and better processed. A little shadows and highlight filtering along with a slight boost in contrast afterwards would go a long way towards making Steven's shot all that it could be and, yes, you DO have to wonder why Steven's shot was accepted and why the tolerances fluctuate so wildly between screeners on RP. On the other hand, your shot was rejected for "similar to previous" despite the fact that many much more similar shots have been accepted - knowingly, I might add, as well as unknowingly.

/Mitch

chris crook 08-23-2012 12:41 AM

Just convert them to black and white. Technical considerations and light conditions go out the window when you convert to black and white.

Also, the no light on nose "rule" is one of the dumbest "rules" on RP.

BarrySr 08-23-2012 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris crook (Post 158989)
Also, the no light on nose "rule" is one of the dumbest "rules" on RP.


Curious; how so? That "rule" is in effect in a lot more places than just RP.....

chris crook 08-24-2012 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarrySr (Post 158999)
Curious; how so? That "rule" is in effect in a lot more places than just RP.....

Like where? Train picture places or general photography places? Your (not you specific, the other your) average train photo is the photographic equivalent of a family portrait on the family couch. The main problem with this photo isn't the lack of light on the nose. It might even be too much light on the nose. He should have let the nose go dark and exposed for the highlights. He should have processed for the same. The screener should have told him as much; if you are going to try and submit this image, this is about the only way to go because of the cruddy sky. Instead they said not enough light on the nose, and efforts are made to remedy it and it makes a pig's ear of the whole thing.

The point of my rant, circuitous as it may be, is that the rule is applied in almost a knee-jerk fashion it seems, with only cursory investigation of the image at hand.

The rule of train picture takin' sometimes turn interesting images into much more mundane images that would only interest the average train picture viewer. Is this the place for that argument? Probably not, but I felt like making it just the same.

The above is of course my opinion, and I expect it to be taken with the grain of salt afforded to a lurker and non-contributor to anything.

BarrySr 08-24-2012 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris crook (Post 159017)
Like where? Train picture places or general photography places?

LocoPhotos, TrainPhotos, WGRF meets.....try the artsy argument there and you'll be laughed right out of the trading room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris crook (Post 159017)
The rule of train picture takin' sometimes turn interesting images into much more mundane images that would only interest the average train picture viewer. Is this the place for that argument? Probably not, but I felt like making it just the same.

The above is of course my opinion, and I expect it to be taken with the grain of salt afforded to a lurker and non-contributor to anything.

Hey, you make valid points. My only question was how is it a dumb rule....I, for example, think it's dumb when your average Joe submits a front-coupled, backlit, rear-facing, cloudy day weed-overgrown picture of a locomotive and argues to death's door that it is a "great roster shot".

But to the photo at-hand? I do think it is a very likeable view. That pixelated sky just blows it for me, though.

chris crook 08-24-2012 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarrySr (Post 159023)
LocoPhotos, TrainPhotos, WGRF meets.....try the artsy argument there and you'll be laughed right out of the trading room.

Hey, you make valid points. My only question was how is it a dumb rule....I, for example, think it's dumb when your average Joe submits a front-coupled, backlit, rear-facing, cloudy day weed-overgrown picture of a locomotive and argues to death's door that it is a "great roster shot".

But to the photo at-hand? I do think it is a very likeable view. That pixelated sky just blows it for me, though.

The front-coupled, backlit, rear-facing, cloudy day, weed-overgrown picture (taken with a 10-year old point and shot at 1000 iso, most likely) leap frogs my abuse of dark nose argument a bit, but I know what you are getting at. At another forum I used to frequent, there was a guy who submitted those type photos, and argued that he was just ahead of his time photographically, and people would come around to his way of thinking.

The dumb rule is that it comes across quite often as a knee-jerk reaction without somewhat of a better explanation. Plus, it is inconsistently applied, and in some cases, signifies a stunning lack of creativity on the part of the screeners; you have to know what the front of that steam engine looks like. Had the photographer not screwed the sky (or been screwed by, actually) the dark front makes an imposing and dramatic image, or could.

The base argument, I guess, is shoddy reviewer feed back. Maybe they don't have time, but if the are positioning themselves to be railroad photo tastemakers, they kind of owe it* to the rest of us to do better than a bunch of pull down menus and generic rejections.

For this photo, the rejection should have been, look, you screwed the sky. You can't have it both ways without some serious technical work, some fiddling around in raw, if you are lucky, or shoot for the highlights and let the rest go dark and go the glint root. Maybe you would argue that this isn't photo school, but I refer to my tastemaker comment.

*maybe owe it is too strong, but this site is clearly influential, and being the 800 pound gorilla in the railroad photo biz, they should be a benevolent giant, and tell us what we are doing wrong better than the aforementioned pulldowns.

Again, my opinion, enjoy with salt. Been spending my idle hours driving around looking for pictures thinking about photographic rules, railroad photo and otherwise.


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