Old 03-14-2021, 08:20 PM   #1
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Default DSLR vs iPhone

After a 15 year break Iíve recently gotten back into RR photography, cameras have advanced a lot in that time I see. Currently Iím using an iPhone 11 for my pictures which at 12mp it takes decent shots. My friend is offering me a used Nikon d3000 dslr for a great price. My question is will the dslr perform significantly better than an iPhone even if the dslr is from 2009 and 10.2 mp compared to 12? I know for a fact the optical zoom will be tremendously better as itís non existent on the iPhone (theyíre also providing me a few extra lenses) but will the photo quality be much better or worse?
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Old 03-14-2021, 11:35 PM   #2
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After a 15 year break I’ve recently gotten back into RR photography, cameras have advanced a lot in that time I see. Currently I’m using an iPhone 11 for my pictures which at 12mp it takes decent shots. My friend is offering me a used Nikon d3000 dslr for a great price. My question is will the dslr perform significantly better than an iPhone even if the dslr is from 2009 and 10.2 mp compared to 12? I know for a fact the optical zoom will be tremendously better as it’s non existent on the iPhone (they’re also providing me a few extra lenses) but will the photo quality be much better or worse?
My short advice: ask your friend to lend you the camera for some test shoots.

The longer version:

I'm not familiar with the cameras of newer iPhones or other high-quality phones, but in general, the pixel number doesn't equal true resolution (how big will be the smallest dots that can be separated). The actual resolution of the images will also depend on the optics and the image compression. Cell phones often make pictures with much worse resolution than you'd guess from their pixel number (meaning: the smallest details you can resolve will be the size of multiple pixels). And that's in good light; if you want to shoot in dusk, or with very high shutter speed (as you'd often do when photographing trains), cell phone cameras would go to high ISO with high noise reduction and thus even worse resolution. (Though, again, for all I know, this may not be true for newer iPhones.)

On the other hand, the camera you were offered is 12 years old. That's a very long time for such sensitive instruments, during which time it could have suffered scratches, mechanical damage or internal dirt (spoiling the optics), or hot pixels or other degradation to the sensor. To test all of this, I suggest you borrow the camera and do some test shoots, including ones where all the edges of the picture should be in focus, and long-exposure ones in dark conditions. And maybe also shoot with your iPhone 11 for side-by-side comparisons.

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Old 03-14-2021, 11:51 PM   #3
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I think that the answer to your questions depends on what types of photography you want to do and what you intend to do with the photos. If all you want to do is post on Instagram or other social media sites, just shoot with an iPhone....most everyone else on those sites does the same thing.

I don't shoot with a cell phone at all....ever.....so I'm not an expert there. But my sense is that despite much the much better sensors these days, and the in-phone post-processing that really does look great....on a phone display, cell phone cameras don't give you much control over the basic parameters of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. And as you say, the focal length you have is what you have. The DSLR will give you control over all of those things. So, if you intend to shoot trains that are moving fast, or in low light, or in the rain, or you intend to shoot things that are somewhat distant, I don't think the phone can compete.

All of that said, I would pass on that 2009 DSLR. Even the cheapest DSLR available today will have a sensor that just kicks that D3000 down the road like a can. I have given away all of my DSLRs of that era. Any photo worth taking is worth taking with at least a 16 MP sensor and one that will handle at least 800 ISO and preferably 1600. I would get a new body. Camera bodies are expendable. Now, depending on what lenses your friend has, and what kind of condition they are in, those MIGHT be worth picking up. The only downside to Nikon DX lenses is that they won't be really useful to you if you ultimately decide to buy a full-frame camera. YES, they will work with a full-frame body, but the image you get will not utilize the full resolution of the camera.

No simple answers, unfortunately. I suggest doing some hard thinking about what sort of photos you will be taking, then decide what equipment best fits that mission.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:38 PM   #4
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RCH, I'd tend to agree with the others. Your iPhone 11, unfortunately, doesn't have the telephoto camera. Even if it were the 11 Pro, 2x optical zoom isn't much. You'd end up with an equivalent to, perhaps, a 14-55 mm (35 mm equivalent) with the three camera setup. Ultra-wide isn't (generally) very useful for rail photography. Additionally, as 18 316 alluded, phone cameras tend to bin pixels and average color detail. Which leaves you with a poorer quality image, in many cases. Where the newest phone cameras shine is the excellent AI, producing a visually pleasing end result, instantly, in many cases. Although, some of the new mirrorless cameras seem to be improving in that regard. Of course, that matters little, if shooting RAW.

On the other hand, that D3000 is quite an old camera. Not only do camera sensors and hardware deteriorate over time, it began life with (now) old technology. I'd shy away from a camera that old.

Something like a D3300 or D3500 can be had fairly cheap, especially on sale. Or, pick up a used D610, D750, if you may want to go full frame.

On the full frame vs DX subject, I've recently had the chance to try out a friend's Nikon Z50. It was released in late 2019, so I figured the image quality and high ISO performance would be nearly as good as my 6 year old D750. Perhaps, even just a tad better.

Initially, I was seeing quite an improvement, looking at the JPEG previews on camera. On the computer, the RAW files told a different story. The high ISO performance seems to be inferior to the D750; notably so, in fact. Not to say it's bad - it is far superior to, say, a D3200. But, the higher tier full frame, with something like 130,000 clicks, still out performs. I haven't compared long exposure shots, but I do figure my D750 has quite a few more "dead pixels."

Now, in terms of optical sharpness, I was actually quite surprised. Those new Z mount kit lenses are quite sharp. Not as sharp as my 70-200 2.8G II, but quite impressive, nonetheless. And they are sharp across the frame. Additionally, those JPEGs look pretty nice, but, those are no good to the RAW shooter, much like the cell phone cameras.

Since you've been shooting with phone for a while, I wonder if you'd be happier with a mirrorless camera, due to the electronic viewfinder? I've been using the Z50 exclusively for over a month, and have not found it disruptive to rail photography. Heck, I even shot half of a senior shoot with the Z50, and loved the eye detect AF! I do miss the additional external controls of the D750, at times, however.

Benjamin
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Old 03-15-2021, 05:43 PM   #5
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Briefly, if you look online the 3000 has little value so a good deal would be very low even with a couple now old kit lenses. The advantage is you would be set to go, body, lens cards.

I wouldn't think it would be a bad idea to start with something like the 3000 but perhaps something a little better, as a bridge camera to get you back into shooting with (D)SLR, and seeing if that is something that you want to followup on.

Starting to talk about Z cameras or even used cameras for a thousand dollars is not where you are right now???

As far as quality, go to railpics search and plug in a year, 2008 2009, or 2010 and you are going to see lots of credible photos taken with similar types of cameras as many had already moved from film. Not going to plug mine but I have a few with a d-200 which was even older but i thought a solid camera for just average rail photos.

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Old 03-15-2021, 06:09 PM   #6
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Starting to talk about Z cameras or even used cameras for a thousand dollars is not where you are right now???

As far as quality, go to railpics search and plug in a year, 2008 2009, or 2010 and you are going to see lots of credible photos taken with similar types of cameras as many had already moved from film. Not going to plug mine but I have a few with a d-200 which was even older but i thought a solid camera for just average rail photos.

bob jordan
One needn't spend over $1,000 on a used D750. Heck, a new one can be had for $1,500. Far less than I paid new - $2,300 plus $400 something for the battery grip

Absolutely, one can take great photos with a D3000. I could take my first digital (Kodak C330) and make some great photos. My point here would be that, being used to the "quality" of an iPhone 11, the D3000 might be a turn-off. I think 18's suggestion to ask to borrow the camera would be a good idea. I'd say $175 or less would be a good price for the kit, in good condition (depending what lenses are included, of course).

A friend of mine has a D200 as well as a D300. Both are great cameras, and had top of the line hardware. The D3000 is, well, at the opposite end of the lineup.

For what it's worth, a nice D300s can be had for $250-500 CF cards are an extra expense and hassle.

Again, newer is more in line with the newer phones. That same friend with the D200 and D300 no longer takes photos, as he was spoiled by the convenience and "quality" of his Samsung phone. But, it lacked the versatility of a proper camera...So he doesn't shoot with his cell phone much either

Depends on the person.

Benjamin

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Old 03-15-2021, 06:26 PM   #7
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On the full frame vs DX subject, I've recently had the chance to try out a friend's Nikon Z50. It was released in late 2019, so I figured the image quality and high ISO performance would be nearly as good as my 6 year old D750. Perhaps, even just a tad better.

Benjamin
A couple of interesting points in your post:

Again, I don't know much about cell phones as cameras, but if they are shooting JPEGs, that is a H-U-G-E disadvantage. I constantly run into situations in which I am shooting backlit, or shooting a dark train with a bright sky. JPEG is worthless for rendering that. Any camera platform that does not enable you to shoot raw is not worth considering IMHO.

With regard to the Z-cameras..... I cannot comment on the Z50, as all of my cameras are full-frame. I do own a Z6, and IMHO, the low-light image quality on that camera is as good as the D4 or D5, which is saying something, because the latter two bodies are pro cameras. The Z6 produces really excellent images, and the EVF is really helpful in difficult exposure situations. It eliminates the need for a lot of test shots. The EVF is not quite real-time, so if you think you are going to single-finger a split-second moment, that doesn't work so well with mirrorless cameras just yet. But for the vast majority of situations, they are great cameras. Because they are smaller and lighter than DSLRs, they are easy to pack for travel. If I had to buy another body today, it would be a Z6 II, hands-down. When Nikon comes out with the Z9, that will probably be my next camera. That might just be the DSLR-killer.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:58 PM   #8
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First and foremost, thank you guys for all of the quick and detailed replies! My friend said I can definitely try it out for awhile to decide if I want it or not. As far as cost when I said cheap I meant CHEAP haha. She was willing to just give it all to me for free because she hasnít touched it in years but I would feel bad so Iíll give her some cash at least. I think Iíll probably take it unless I really donít like it, itíll be my first time ever even touching a dslr (the camera I used years ago was a Nikon point and shoot) so I think itís a great starting point. with the extra lenses I think it will be a real game changer and will do what Iím looking to do,with being able to zoom pretty far out etc (she said the one lens is around a 70-200mm). Thanks again!
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Old 03-15-2021, 10:03 PM   #9
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I think that the answer to your questions depends on what types of photography you want to do and what you intend to do with the photos. If all you want to do is post on Instagram or other social media sites, just shoot with an iPhone....most everyone else on those sites does the same thing....... I suggest doing some hard thinking about what sort of photos you will be taking, then decide what equipment best fits that mission.
I agree with Kevin, decide on what you want to shoot and what you want to do with your pictures. Most people use their phones. I rarely use my phone for a Quality pic and I only use my phone for that "spare of moment shot". When I go out the door, my camera goes with me. I have the Samsung Ultra. It supposedly has 40mp and 100x zoom. But what good is 100x zoom when you cant hold the phone completely steady and how can you zoom on the fly especially when you have a speeding train coming at you...? Personally the 100x sucks as the quality deteriorates the more you zoom. So my cell stays in my pocket 95%.
If that set up was the D3300, I'd say jump on it. My wife gifted me mine for my birthday when it came out new and got it for a screaming deal at Costco. It has 24 mega pix and has yet to disappoint me. Granted I'm just on novel hobbyist collecting pics for my own use and probably will never sell anything but a cell phone just wont cut if your really into developing the art of taking a quality picture. Ask your buddy to let you try out for week and decide which way you want to go, cell and have fun or the real thing and develop an art.
Just my humble 2 cents....
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Old 03-16-2021, 12:54 AM   #10
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A couple of interesting points in your post:

Again, I don't know much about cell phones as cameras, but if they are shooting JPEGs, that is a H-U-G-E disadvantage. I constantly run into situations in which I am shooting backlit, or shooting a dark train with a bright sky. JPEG is worthless for rendering that. Any camera platform that does not enable you to shoot raw is not worth considering IMHO.

With regard to the Z-cameras..... I cannot comment on the Z50, as all of my cameras are full-frame. I do own a Z6, and IMHO, the low-light image quality on that camera is as good as the D4 or D5, which is saying something, because the latter two bodies are pro cameras. The Z6 produces really excellent images, and the EVF is really helpful in difficult exposure situations. It eliminates the need for a lot of test shots. The EVF is not quite real-time, so if you think you are going to single-finger a split-second moment, that doesn't work so well with mirrorless cameras just yet. But for the vast majority of situations, they are great cameras. Because they are smaller and lighter than DSLRs, they are easy to pack for travel. If I had to buy another body today, it would be a Z6 II, hands-down. When Nikon comes out with the Z9, that will probably be my next camera. That might just be the DSLR-killer.
There is an option to shoot in RAW on some phones, and support for it is available on most of the newer phones, via third party apps. For instance, my iPhone 7 will not shoot RAW natively, but Lightroom Mobile's "camera" feature does allow me to shoot in RAW (DNG). LRM even allows me to adjust the shutter speed and ISO for the iPhone 7's camera.. BUT, the output is anything but high quality in less than ideal light. The iPhone 7 is not high resolution either, by any stretch.

I plan to retire my D750 workhorse to backup status within the next year or so. Briefly, the thought had crossed my mind to buy a Z50 and Z6II. Leave the 200-500 F5.6E on the Z50 and wider lenses on the Z6II. The Z50 with two kit lenses would also be nice, if I don't want to lug along my main bag with 25 lbs of equipment. LOL! Then again, the same effect (crop, with resolution) would be accomplished with a single Z7II, at times when the reach of a DX sensor is wanted. You see, in crop mode, the Z7II has nearly the same resolution as the Z50, plus far superior hardware and software in the former. I really don't need the 45 MP that the Z7II has to offer, although it can be nice for product photography and studio portraiture. And there is the "small RAW" option, for times when the extra resolution isn't wanted, but it seems a waste. I'll likely go with a lone Z6II, but we shall see. Like you, I'm also waiting to see what the Z9 has to offer.

As far RAW vs JPEG, there's no comparison when it comes to flexibility. With careful editing, the RAW wins. Every time. Here's a recent example, where I intentionally exposed dark, pointing directly into the post-sunset sky. Most of the work was done in Camera Raw, with bit of final polishing in PS. Pretty crazy what a single RAW file contains, data wise.

D750, 50mm F/1.8G: F/5, 1/100, ISO 320.

Click image for larger version

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Quote:
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First and foremost, thank you guys for all of the quick and detailed replies! My friend said I can definitely try it out for awhile to decide if I want it or not. As far as cost when I said cheap I meant CHEAP haha. She was willing to just give it all to me for free because she hasnít touched it in years but I would feel bad so Iíll give her some cash at least. I think Iíll probably take it unless I really donít like it, itíll be my first time ever even touching a dslr (the camera I used years ago was a Nikon point and shoot) so I think itís a great starting point. with the extra lenses I think it will be a real game changer and will do what Iím looking to do,with being able to zoom pretty far out etc (she said the one lens is around a 70-200mm). Thanks again!
Coming from an old point and shoot, that D3000 will be a nice improvement. And at the price point, I don't think you could pass it up! Hopefully it will bump you back into the the hobby for keeps Give it a try, and those lenses will likely work just fine when it comes time to upgrade

Benjamin
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Old 03-16-2021, 01:10 AM   #11
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Another thought with regard to Z cameras. If you want to shoot in low light, get a Z6. I don't think you will be happy with the low-light performance of the higher resolution sensor on the Z7. A couple of years back, I bought a D850 (45 MP) as a sort of replacement for my D4 (16 MP). What I found was that above 1600 ISO, the old D4 kicks the D850 in the butt every time. The D850 files don't look nearly as good at high ISO. The Z6 on the other hand.....that gives the D4 a real run for its money.

Don't get me wrong, I like my D850. I just leave it in the bag on rainy days.
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:04 PM   #12
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...cell phones often make pictures with much worse resolution than you'd guess from their pixel number... and that's in good light
Bingo. Think of pixels as colored dots. If you've ever looked at a newspaper, you likely noticed all the images are made up of these dots. More dots (resolution) will yield a better detailed image, but as you enlarge the image, if those pixels (dots) are too small, the space between them will limit how large you can go before the image degrades. This is why small cell pics often look great on your phone but not as much so enlarged. A cell phone has a small sensor so it can only fit so many pixels on it, and the more there are, the smaller they have to be to fit. A DSLR will have a much larger sensor with much larger pixels. The other big advantage of larger pixels is their ability to capture more light in less time - ie; a shutter click. That means larger pixels will often provide you with better detail in low light photographs, especially when compared to a cell phone shot, enlarged. This is why Kevin above suggests a preference for a 24 mp camera vs a 45 mp camera. Better in low light, but not as beneficial for detail, specifically when cropping or enlarging.

So - in a nut shell; Use the right tool for the job.

Save to phone - cell.
Post on FB - cell.
Post on RP - better off with a DSLR, unless you only plan on shooting with good light, and good light at your back, nothing artistic like backlit, low light nor high contrast stuff - (the dramatic stuff).
DSLR if you want to shoot backlit shots, night photography, flash photography, high contrast stuff, fish eye, telephoto, or print and/or display greater than 8"X12".

And while a cell phone these days will let you adjust aperture and shutter, even ISO, a DSLR or mirrorless, will often offer more flexibility and ease of use (more buttons, direct access vs scrolling, weather proofing, different lenses, filters, battery life, flip screens, faster and better focus, image stabilization, ect.

I'm a Canon shooter - but I think if I was starting fresh, I'd look for a used or on sale soon to be discontinued (if not already), Nikon D750. Keep in mind, however, once you choose a camera, you will likely start accumulating accessories (and lenses) to use with it. Those accessories tend to lock people into a brand and technology. If you like (or expect to migrate to) smaller mirrorless cameras, you might not want to build a collection of DSLR accessories and lenses.

Good luck!

/Mitch

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Old 03-17-2021, 04:32 PM   #13
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A little caveat concerning selecting equipment.

Image © Robert Jordan
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My friend Bill Clynes could never have thought when he shot this photo taking a train ride with his son that some day it would be online, many of his photos would make it into books, calendars. magazines, online. He could have been taking snapshots with a brownie, been using off brand slide film that would fade, shooting B/W(not knocking that as such but not always best choice), or using color print film.

But he had good camera equipment for the time, used Kodachrome and had it processed by Kodak. This is actually a later slide he let me post. He has many steam and diesel photos from the 50's taken with ASA 10 Kodchrome.

Similar for another friend Terry Norton, many of his slides are valued as he covered obscure branch lines.

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We all took photos for I am not sure what reason but in no way could we imagine ....

It could be a sad day when you are out and in position for a killer shot, even maybe a speeding Acela in the snow on the NE corridor!!! and you end up with c--- because of your equipment .

Bob Jordan

And a personal example, I left my collie in my 72 Maverick and wondered into the CP Nelson shops and grabbed this shot which sat in a box for many years but is one of my favorite memories , and example that not all shadows are distracting.
Minolta SRT-101 50mm 1.2 Lens. Kodak slide film.

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Old 03-17-2021, 06:50 PM   #14
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It could be a sad day when you are out and in position for a killer shot, even maybe a speeding Acela in the snow on the NE corridor!!! and you end up with c--- because of your equipment .

Bob Jordan

They say that the best camera in the world is the one you happen to have with you. While I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, I also agree that when you venture forth for the purpose of engaging in photography, you bring the best tools you can get your hands on for the job at hand. You can take crappy pictures with a kick-ass camera, but you can't take kick-ass pictures with a crappy camera.
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Old 03-18-2021, 10:58 PM   #15
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So the question really is, what do you want to do with your images? Post them here and make some nice 8x10's, or make huge enlargements from images shot in the dead of night? And are you hyper critical about the images you will take?

That said, the D3000 is probably the worst DSLR Nikon ever made. The D3100 is much better and the D3200 a step above that. You may be disappointed with the images you get from the D3000, but by all means give it a try. I still shoot a D90 and actually prefer the images I get over my much newer D7500. I can easily make nice 11x14 prints that look great to me and everyone I show them to, although the pixel counters may disagree.

Make sure to use a decent lens, especially your long zooms. Having a VR lens makes a huge difference if you are handholding your shots. Get a decent post processing program as well so at the very least you can do some basic sharpening and color corrections. The JPEG vs. RAW discussion will go on forever and really depends on how much post processing work you want to do.

Finally, cost is always a factor. A free camera is always appealing, but if it is the Yugo of cameras, do you even want it for free?
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Old 03-27-2021, 04:32 PM   #16
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A cell phone can be handy when you have nothing else with you, and if the subject is standing still or moving very slowly. Other than that, not so much. Given their tiny sensors, however, the quality you can get within their limitations is pretty amazing - I do have a handful of cell phone pics in my stuff.

My photos can bee seen here:

https://richardbischoff.smugmug.com/
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