Old 12-05-2008, 10:52 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Cinderpath
-I understand this problem 100% about the upload- not only can it change saturation levels, also overall brightness. I use the Adobe 1998 color space and my monitor is calibrated, but I don't know what happens to the photo profiles once they go on RP.net. I am glad you bring this up, perhaps someone from the site help enlighten us. If we knew what the profile is, we could simply use that instead and then adjust so the photos are exactly what will be when uploaded.
Uploaded images retain embedded profiles, but thumbnails have no profiles.

If you want the best success, upload your photos with the "sRGB" profile. Remember that different browsers handle color differently, with Apple's Safari having full color-profile awareness, and Microsoft's Internet Explorer being generally clueless. Firefox also has poor color handling for profiles other than sRGB, as it expects all photos to be either sRGB or untagged GRB, and treats them accordingly.
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:58 PM   #102
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Mike, I know that you know that photography is an art. Why would railroad photography be different? Some use it to document rostershots, some to include scenery, etc. I do have to knock down the saturation some but other wise that is what I saw.

I remember a post about someone's shot where the sky and even the mountains were way too blue. I thought it was overdone as well as others. I saw a blue blue sky and blue mountains on the West side of the rockies when I was there and said to myself, ok that can happen. And of course I try to give my photos some pop in different ways.

All I can say is I gave you the original, show me what you would do with it. Maybe, I will adjust more then just the saturation.
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:04 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by John Ryan
Uploaded images retain embedded profiles, but thumbnails have no profiles.

If you want the best success, upload your photos with the "sRGB" profile. Remember that different browsers handle color differently, with Apple's Safari having full color-profile awareness, and Microsoft's Internet Explorer being generally clueless. Firefox also has poor color handling for profiles other than sRGB, as it expects all photos to be either sRGB or untagged GRB, and treats them accordingly.
-Thanks John; good info, as well, I am aware of color handling issues between various browsers, indeed there is a difference, not to mention how Mac vs. PC render colors.
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:18 PM   #104
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Look at the locomotive's left front underside right behind the snowplow; look at the rails....

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You know, I've looked at that again and again, and it finally snapped; I'm looking at part of the plow, not the rail. So I rescind my comment that means to draw attention to something that to me at the time didn't look right; I "mis-saw" and I apologize for any unintended harm.
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:23 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Does 2+2=5 if I want it to?

No, but you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, what my photography "is about."

You may not like Impressionism, but some of us do. Some of us incorporate it into our photography. Not every photo that I, or others, take is intended to be "an accurate representation of the scene."


That's like saying Monet's "Sunset in Venice," or Van Gogh's "Starry Night," isn't art.
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Old 12-06-2008, 12:32 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by travsirocz
I sharpened, noise reduction, contrast, color balance, saturation. No dramatic changes, no spot processing, all done in less than 5 min. Some shots take much more than 5 minutes and need different work on different areas of the photo.
The only way I can get to what you got is to select out the sky and increase brightness and contrast on the bottom half. I get pretty darn close. Given that, my opinion now is that the brightness/contrast level you selected for the train does not match the apparent conditions.

One could argue that there is light coming in and lighting up the train but not the background. Put differently, the dark cloud area terminates above the photographer's head. I think that would result in more variation in brightness on the land behind the train than I see. In other words, the scene does not look as it should look were the train of the brightness you change it to.

The unprocessed file, with relatively constant (lack of) brightness across the road/train/land, also suggests to me that there was no break in the cloud that lit up the train. Notice also in the unprocessed file that the train and the road are similar in darkness to the (not so dark parts of) the cloulds, but that similarity is gone after processing, with the road/train brighter than those previously equivalent portions of the clouds.

Overall, it just looks well off to me. The result does not look like it is within the realm of possibility of what nature offers.
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Old 12-06-2008, 12:34 AM   #107
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That's like saying Monet's "Sunset in Venice," or Van Gogh's "Starry Night," isn't art.
Monet:



Van Gogh:

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Old 12-06-2008, 12:54 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
The only way I can get to what you got is to select out the sky and increase brightness and contrast on the bottom half. I get pretty darn close. Given that, my opinion now is that the brightness/contrast level you selected for the train does not match the apparent conditions.

One could argue that there is light coming in and lighting up the train but not the background. Put differently, the dark cloud area terminates above the photographer's head. I think that would result in more variation in brightness on the land behind the train than I see. In other words, the scene does not look as it should look were the train of the brightness you change it to.

The unprocessed file, with relatively constant (lack of) brightness across the road/train/land, also suggests to me that there was no break in the cloud that lit up the train. Notice also in the unprocessed file that the train and the road are similar in darkness to the (not so dark parts of) the cloulds, but that similarity is gone after processing, with the road/train brighter than those previously equivalent portions of the clouds.

Overall, it just looks well off to me. The result does not look like it is within the realm of possibility of what nature offers.
The sun wasn't direct just through thin clouds. I did process the sky portion seperate from the lower portion. The train itself does need to be desaturated some which will also bring the brightness down. I do see what you are seeing.
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:47 AM   #109
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Monet:

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Old 12-06-2008, 01:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
Monet:



Van Gogh:

I think Van Gogh really needs more help with his post processing........
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:59 AM   #111
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No, but you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, what my photography "is about."
You're right I do not, but if you want your photography to qualify as railroad photography you must follow the guidelines of railroad photography.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Craft
You may not like Impressionism, but some of us do. Some of us incorporate it into our photography. Not every photo that I, or others, take is intended to be "an accurate representation of the scene."
Railroad photography fundamentally is documentation. If your photography is not an accurate representation of a scene, then it is not documentation. If you want the documentation to look appealing as I and many others do, then work to get an appealing scene to get a nice photo, but don't rely on the photo itself to get an appealing photo. That makes the photo into something it isn't and becomes art, not documentation.

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That's like saying Monet's "Sunset in Venice," or Van Gogh's "Starry Night," isn't art.
Don't act like an idiot.
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:07 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
You're right I do not, but if you want your photography to qualify as railroad photography you must follow the guidelines of railroad photography.



Railroad photography fundamentally is documentation. If your photography is not an accurate representation of a scene, then it is not documentation. If you want the documentation to look appealing as I and many others do, then work to get an appealing scene to get a nice photo, but don't rely on the photo itself to get an appealing photo. That makes the photo into something it isn't and becomes art, not documentation.


Who says we must follow that very narrow minded reasoning??
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by travsirocz
The sun wasn't direct just through thin clouds.
So...it was cloudy then.

We're obviously not talking about sunlight going through cirrus clouds or something similar. I just cannot believe that the scene actually looked like your photo and I've experienced a number of storms out in the country. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you made the power/ground brighter than it actually was and the clouds more dramatic than they actually were.
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:12 AM   #114
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Who says we must follow that very narrow minded reasoning??
You can go out and take any and all the photos you want, but don't try to classify them as something they are not.
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:13 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
You can go out and take any and all the photos you want, but don't try to classify them as something they are not.
Photos are classified by their content not by their presentation
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:16 AM   #116
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Photos are classified by their content not by their presentation
Why must we follow such narrow minded reasoning?
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:22 AM   #117
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Why must we follow such narrow minded reasoning?
You follow what you want. I merely made a statement that you seemingly cannot dispute.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:02 AM   #118
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...but if you want your photography to qualify as railroad photography you must follow the guidelines of railroad photography.
I'll just chime in and ask...where are these guidelines written? And who's enforcing them?

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Old 12-06-2008, 03:09 AM   #119
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I'll just chime in and ask...where are these guidelines written? And who's enforcing them?

I assume that this is policed by the RPP (Railroad Photography Police). They must be effective since Mike seems do concerned.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:14 AM   #120
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I'll just chime in and ask...where are these guidelines written? And who's enforcing them?

Railroad photography has been documentation based for decades and decades, basically every since cameras became available to most people.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:26 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Railroad photography has been documentation based for decades and decades, basically every since cameras became available to most people.
By your reasoning, I must assume that Hugh Hefner has been “documenting” women now for over 50 years in Playboy magazine.
OR
Since it has always been it shall always be??


Have it your way since it is just irrelevent as to how you classify my work or anyone elses.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:59 PM   #122
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I'll just chime in and ask...where are these guidelines written? And who's enforcing them?


Don't you know? Mike B. is RP.NET's very own Al Haig. "I'M IN CHARGE!!!11!!"

It must be a terrible fate to be so superior to everyone, yet we 'idots' can't see it, and inferior photos keep slipping past the screeners while his get rejected. If only we'd accept Mike's overlordship, I'm sure the world would be a better place.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:50 PM   #123
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:07 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
Railroad photography has been documentation based for decades and decades, basically every since cameras became available to most people.

News-flash: Photography, regardless of subject matter, be it trains down to porn, is both a form of documentation, and art, and has been since the world's first photograph was produced in France in about 1826 by Joseph Nicéphore who rendered a bitumen-on-pewter image of the view from his summer house in St-Loup de Varennes with an exposure time of ~8 hours and dubbed the process, which used a camera obscura effect, heliography. (For the old folks on this list: Its a desert topping, Its a floor wax! Its both!) This applies to railroad photography as well. Take a look at the Center for Railroad Photography and Art website and publications that has chronicled this quite well, and yes it is both.
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:36 PM   #125
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Don't you know? Mike B. is RP.NET's very own Al Haig. "I'M IN CHARGE!!!11!!"

It must be a terrible fate to be so superior to everyone, yet we 'idots' can't see it, and inferior photos keep slipping past the screeners while his get rejected. If only we'd accept Mike's overlordship, I'm sure the world would be a better place.
What we all need to do is place Mike B. on "Ignore" status, but it's just too tempting to read his posts for their entertainment value. It's kind of like having an obsession with train wrecks. You just *have* to see the carnage to believe it.
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