Old 02-08-2007, 11:26 PM   #1
Mike Mautner
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Default Bad Cropping Again! Please Help Me!

Hello, As usual I got more bad cropping rejects. I really do not get what I am doing wrong.Can anyone help me in how to correct these.I also can use a bit of help on Rail.
Pictures.Net standards on Bad-Cropping,it seems bad-cropping rejects are by far my most common.
Thanks Alot!
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:00 AM   #2
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Do not place the subject in the middle of the frame. Review past posts for the "Rule of Thirds," primary composition taught in beginning photography.
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:03 AM   #3
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http://www.railpictures.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=4794
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:09 AM   #4
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Dave's coment is sound on the second picture. In addition to placement of the train, the left side is devoid of interest, it's empty space.

On the first one, in my opinion you have a bunch of empty sky over the train. In the absence of interesting clouds, it is empty space.
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
On the first one, in my opinion you have a bunch of empty sky over the train. In the absence of interesting clouds, it is empty space.
I think someone nailed it!
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Hello, As usual I got more bad cropping rejects. I really do not get what I am doing wrong.Can anyone help me in how to correct these.I also can use a bit of help on Rail.
Pictures.Net standards on Bad-Cropping,it seems bad-cropping rejects are by far my most common.
Too much sky compared to the ground in the first one. In a shot like this, they need to be more balanced, such as in this shot:

Image © Louis Becker
PhotoID: 168694
Photograph © Louis Becker


For the second one, the subject is too centered in the frame, as previously stated. Plus, on a curve shot (learned from experience), it works better when you show a portion of the train trailing away, rather than letting the locomotives block it out.

HTH,

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Old 02-09-2007, 11:44 AM   #7
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Smile As usual I got more bad cropping rejects. I really do not get what I am doing wrong.

You are not doing anything "wrong". It is a judgement call, and there is absolutely no reason why the person doing the judgement is any more "correct" than you are. If you like the shot, that is all there is to it. Remember that they get a lot of photos, so many in fact that some culling is necessary, and I would not be at all surprised if there was a daily "admissions" quota.... though I have no inside information, To select only the "best" requires some explaination for rejection.. Unless the reason is obvious, an intangable works best. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and to be bothered by someone else's values [or lack of them] is foolish. I enjoy 100% of your photos and 99% of mine, and would never appraise one of your photos unless specifically requested, and then maybe I would lie just a little if I did not like it, so you would show me your next one.. Enjoy.. Ed
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:14 PM   #8
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Sorry, Ed, I think you tip things too far in the opposite direction. Sure, standards are personal. Nonetheless, there are still concepts of "better" and "worse" or "less interesting" or "less attractive" or whatever. It's not just individual values, there are still common principles of what many find more interesting or more stimulating or what is instead dull. One challenge is to push the standard "rules" but in a way which makes an image "more" rather than just different. Ultimately, while we all may disagree on any one image, there are still standards of composition and light that people at least gravitate toward as being in some sense, ill-defined of course, "better."

BTW, you can treat others how you wish, but I ask you that when you comment on any of my pictures, that you do not lie but instead give me your honest view. I prefer learning to being told something false, and I prefer criticism to an incorrect assessment that my image is fine. I always reserve the right to continue liking or loving one of my images even if someone else or everyone else says it is no good.

And I promise you, I will certainly show you more images, if you are willing to look! Given what you have written, however, I'll try to remember to sugar coat any comments I make about your pictures.

I guess your comments obviosly rubbed me the wrong way! We disagree. That's the way it goes sometimes.
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Old 02-09-2007, 06:34 PM   #9
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wow... well we all have our own values.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and to be bothered by someone else's values is foolish..
We all have what we like and dislike, my favorite obserdity is taking a class in art appreciation. If I have to learn to appreciate it, means I have to learn YOUR (or the instructors) values. Whether three or three hundred million people agree with those values is not revelant.. I prefer my own..
Understand that I have no objection to your values, I just dont think the reader should feel inferior just because he fails to meet someone elses' standards..
Of coarse, if he wants to have his photos accepted, well that is a different problem.
I will enjoy your photos, no reason not to, thank you..
... Enjoy...Ed
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Old 02-09-2007, 07:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
wow... well we all have our own values.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and to be bothered by someone else's values is foolish..
We all have what we like and dislike, my favorite obserdity is taking a class in art appreciation. If I have to learn to appreciate it, means I have to learn YOUR (or the instructors) values. Whether three or three hundred million people agree with those values is not revelant.. I prefer my own..
Understand that I have no objection to your values, I just dont think the reader should feel inferior just because he fails to meet someone elses' standards..
Of coarse, if he wants to have his photos accepted, well that is a different problem.
I will enjoy your photos, no reason not to, thank you..
... Enjoy...Ed
I am pointing out there is a middle (that is somewhat happy!) in which some standards or at least strong inclinations have weight. I would add that, without values, there is nothing to strive for. Under your sense of values, how does one try to improve one's photography, or even know it can be improved? I see no basis for that. (BTW, that is actually a very serious question for you, Ed, not just a rhetorical flourish.)

In my way, I see measurement against standards and against the work of others as contributing to the construction of (not defining) a visual aesthetic. It's not a matter of being bothered by the values of others, it is that one should be greatly interested in them!

I also wonder where you learned your visual values. Are they innate? (To some extent they may be - there are studies that argue that we innately find pictures of women with high cheekbones to be more beautiful.) Or are they inevitably defined by your cultural experiences, because you were exposed to one? Nothing wrong with learning what an instructor's values are; that does not force you to adopt them as your own. The exposure to them, especially those of someone who studies them and takes them more seriously than a non-artist/hobbyist might, helps build one's own aesthetic. Value, not absurdity.

No one should feel inferior just because someone doesn't like their picture. On the other hand, if several people say a picture could be better, one should open one's mind to the input. It won't get soiled by foreign thoughts, just informed! I guess, Ed, in your insistence that there are no values other than separate individual values, I find an emptyness - due to the lack of human interaction, which inevitably finds common ground and common values, including aesthetic ones, even as it sometimes or often disagrees.

I agree that RP acceptance and underlying value are different measures. I think I have proven that to myself, over and over and over... Apologies if I have pushed the philosophical window too deep into this forum. Time to turn my spigot off?
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Old 02-09-2007, 09:40 PM   #11
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pass your 1NT bid.. I did not have to be taught to love Ansel Adams.. the guy was upset over rejection.. let it go... Ed
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Old 02-09-2007, 09:48 PM   #12
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I didn't have to be taught to love Ansel Adams either, but I do find it helpful to be shown what I can/might do, what I can/might visualize, as I strive to move in his direction despite having insufficent innate conceptual/artistic/visual skills.

letting it go...
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:41 PM   #13
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aww, dont hafta go quite that deep...
Years ago I considered attempting to create "winning" photographs. To that end, there (somewhere) was a list of criteria to be used for judging photographs [I think there wuz about 9 of 'em]. I started going down that list in an attempt to create a "winning photograph". In time I came to realize that not only wasn't I going to be the "great photographer" [I did not agree with some of the criteria (sigh)], but more importantly, "Frankly,Scarlett".
Now I take the shots, the ones that please me I print fer my loose leaf, and discard the rest... The lesson, which I tried to pass on, was that my criteria, although perhaps not definable, was the only thing that mattered to me. What Ansel Adams has, probably cannot be quantified, much less learned.
But thanks for submitting yours, I love to look at all photos of trains .. Ed
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
aww, dont hafta go quite that deep...
Years ago I considered attempting to create "winning" photographs. To that end, there (somewhere) was a list of criteria to be used for judging photographs [I think there wuz about 9 of 'em]. I started going down that list in an attempt to create a "winning photograph". In time I came to realize that not only wasn't I going to be the "great photographer" [I did not agree with some of the criteria (sigh)], but more importantly, "Frankly,Scarlett".
Now I take the shots, the ones that please me I print fer my loose leaf, and discard the rest... The lesson, which I tried to pass on, was that my criteria, although perhaps not definable, was the only thing that mattered to me. What Ansel Adams has, probably cannot be quantified, much less learned.
But thanks for submitting yours, I love to look at all photos of trains .. Ed
Ed, we are actually not that far apart, certainly in terms of how we view our own shooting. I would summarize that my complaint was that you seemed to be suggesting that the OP only follow his own criteria, to which I felt it important to add that those criteria are always and should be evolving, in part through consideration of photographers/photographs that others might consider "better," especially since the shots suggested that there is room for growth.
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:39 PM   #15
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yeh, but I was addressing what I thought was his worry that his photos did not "measure up". 'twas all.. no problem.. keep clicking.. ed
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
yeh, but I was addressing what I thought was his worry that his photos did not "measure up". 'twas all.. no problem.. keep clicking.. ed
speaking of which, where can I go to see your stuff?
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:52 PM   #17
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my notebook... I don't submit my photos, I submitted one here, once, it got rejected, they struck out.. End of story... I did not want to stress it, but if I was running this thing, there would be a quota and of coarse the reason for rejection would be vague.. I find that my major criteria for a good RR photo is not the train, although it, of coarse, is important, but the scenery the train is travelling thru. Here on Long Island, we have neither trains nor scenery, so it looks like a strike out anyway.. Ed
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Old 02-10-2007, 03:01 PM   #18
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look at last weeks best photo, there was a train in the center, but also boats anchored, a town in the foreground , a lake (river?), mountains in the background.... And it wasn't rejected for being "cluttered?" No, it was a great shot.... In the eyes of the beholder(me too)... Ed
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Old 02-10-2007, 03:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
Here on Long Island, we have neither trains nor scenery, so it looks like a strike out anyway.. Ed
Ever fan the Great Neck area (is it the Port Washington Branch?). I get up there from time to time but haven't had the opportunity to check out the trains. There is a high viaduct somewhere to the east, Manhasset? I'm not a fan of commuter trains, anyway, especially MU sets.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:43 PM   #20
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WAIT, Janusz...there's fiber optic poles on the left (2nd shot)?!

Yes, WAY too much sky in the first attachment. Although, "too much empty space" doesn't necessarily mean "fill the frame" (wedgie) either. Just put some life into it other than a nosey shot of a train coming at you.

Or, at the very least, make it a vertical next time. Although, a longer movement would help (not a 5-car Amtrak train), even in this scenario.

Clicky

Also, not sure if this is the actual file size you sent, but it's too small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Dave's coment is sound on the second picture. In addition to placement of the train, the left side is devoid of interest, it's empty space.
As condescending as this is going to sound..."Ha-ha-ha...ha-ha-ha!!"

Ed, there are "choo choo pikchurs" and "railroad photography". The former involves lack of many things, amongst them: composition, reasonable lighting, and image quality. Ed, you seem to appreciate "choo choo pikchurs" more than actual (railroad) photography. Railpictures.net is about the latter, so their views on what's acceptable DO matter, and those basic principles apply. I'd like to think the sane part of this forum aids in assisting those with photographic disabilities.

The moderation may not always be agreeable, but that's the way life goes. Personally, I cringe when I read sugar-coating like this. It just enforces the behavior that Widdle Jimmy is a special boy and his "pweshus fotos" are perfectly acceptable. I'll say this, at least the kid asked for help ~ rather than asking for someone to check his pants to ensure it didn't stink. You just basically patted this fellow on his hiney, sent him 2nd stringing on the field, then watched him get involved in a complete trainwreck as four 300lb linebackers hogpiled on him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
You are not doing anything "wrong"...
This sounds to me like you gave up too early, or just outright said "I quit" and settled on what abilities to you do have, rather than trying to enhance your photographic skills. Your "personal criteria" as I understand it, is what's lacking in your shooting. To that degree, I can now understand why it is so hard for people to accept that their photos aren't worthy of RP.net standards, and instead put them up on RRPA.net (the "special" school).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM
Now I take the shots, the ones that please me I print fer my loose leaf, and discard the rest... The lesson, which I tried to pass on, was that my criteria, although perhaps not definable, was the only thing that mattered to me.
Dare I ask, like Janusz, to view "that photo" which you sent (and was rejected) to RP...and perhaps a few of us non-mod types could crotique it within reason? Something tells me, however, that the photo is no longer available for public viewing because you don't want people to label your work any different than we just labeled those photos of the initial poster.

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Old 02-13-2007, 11:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotaugrafee, Ink.
WAIT, Janusz...there's fiber optic poles on the left!(2nd shot)?!

Yes, WAY too much sky in the first attachment. Although, "too much empty space" doesn't necessarily mean "fill the frame" (wedgie) either. Just put some life into it other than a nosey shot of a train coming at you.

Or, at the very least, make it a vertical next time. Although, a longer movement would help (not a 5-car Amtrak train), even in this scenario.

Clicky

Also, not sure if this is the actual file size you sent, but it's too small.




As condescending as this is going to sound..."Ha-ha-ha...ha-ha-ha!!"

Ed, there are "choo choo pikchurs" and "railroad photography". The former involves lack of many things, amongst them: composition, reasonable lighting, and image quality. Ed, you seem to appreciate "choo choo pikchurs" more than actual (railroad) photography. Railpictures.net is about the latter, so their views on what's acceptable DO matter, and those basic principles apply. I'd like to think the sane part of this forum aids in assisting those with photographic disabilities.

The moderation may not always be agreeable, but that's the way life goes. Personally, I cringe when I read sugar-coating like this. It just enforces the behavior that Widdle Jimmy is a special boy and his "pweshus fotos" are perfectly acceptable. I'll say this, at least the kid asked for help ~ rather than asking for someone to check his pants to ensure it didn't stink. You just basically patted this fellow on his hiney, sent him 2nd stringing on the field, then watched him get involved in a complete trainwreck as four 300lb linebackers hogpiled on him.
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This made my day, Eric. As well as being very entertaining it is actual very well said.

I like all my "pweshus fotos", RP or not! HAHAHA
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Old 02-14-2007, 12:07 PM   #22
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hee hee.... well, I will watch my "choo-choo" piktues happily in my ignorance while you pseudo-intellectuals impress each other with your search for self defined knowledge, skill, and wisdom. And when you ever determine exactly how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, I am sure you will post it here to enlighten the great unwashed... To each his own..

but I maintain that the bottom line is that photos must be culled, somehow, and that is in the eyes of the beholder and any attempt to quantify the process is going to step on some toes...

BTW, it was a photo of a train, it is , along with many others, residing in my notebook. Nothing spectacular, I just liked it for undefined reasons. For someone to create standards is fine, but often those standards, self created, are motivated by an insecure need fer an ego trip.. I find it difficult not to assume that your wanting to see it is just a search for a target for you ego...GBG! (SRI) Ed
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Old 02-14-2007, 12:26 PM   #23
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For someone to create standards is fine, but often those standards, self created, are motivated by an insecure need fer an ego trip.. (SRI) Ed
OR!!!, they were created because there was and still is a limited amount of space in which the photos submitted could be stored on. Hmm, I think THATS the real reason, but good try.
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Old 02-14-2007, 12:40 PM   #24
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OR!!!, they were created because there was and still is a limited amount of space in which the photos submitted could be stored on. Hmm, I think THATS the real reason, but good try.


OF COARSE.... and I have stated that... Why are you guys beating it to death though! That is where the ego thing enters..

"If you like the shot, that is all there is to it. Remember that they get a lot of photos, so many in fact that some culling is necessary, and I would not be at all surprised if there was a daily "admissions" quota.... though I have no inside information, To select only the "best" requires some explaination for rejection.."
GBG Ed
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Old 02-14-2007, 02:46 PM   #25
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Just to clarify Ed's earlier comment about there being a quota of images allowed each day; I can assure you that is not even part of our decision making process when screening photos. If we had 400 top quality photos submitted each day, we would have no issues with posting every single one. Quality photos drive the ability for this site to welcome visitors and host the huge amount of photos that we do and we in no way want to limit our daily photo additions of quality material. I know I can speak for the rest of the screening crew when I say there is not a more enjoyable time to be screening when you get a good, solid batch of nice images to judge.

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